Talk:Gangsta rap

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): ChrisMoreno24. Peer reviewers: Tarispittman.

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Redirect
Someone recently redirected hardcore hip hop to this article. It'd be good if anyone could comment at Talk:Hardcore hip hop. Thanks, Spellcast (talk) 01:07, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Mafioso Rap
If you're talking about Mafioso Rap, shouldn't Rick Ross be included? His lyrics as well as videos, and generally his image is of a Mafia-"Boss", and didn't he claim that he ran the biggest drug cartel in Miami? --Daondo (talk) 22:47, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. And please don't bring chiropractic disputes here. / edg ☺ ☭ 15:29, 20 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Please keep your comments focused on improving the article. You may want to review How to use article talk pages and WP:NOTOPINION. &oelig; &trade; 21:18, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

What is extraordinary about the claims? Your article mentions controversy and the article would be more objective if it actually admitted the criminal records of rap artists like DMX, the Wu-Tang Clan and Snoop Dog to name a few. No need to hide rap's true colors. These records and skirmish with the police is the best free PR these guys can get! You already have the links in wikipedia. If you're talking aesthetic, what is there to prove? Why are we burdened with "extraordinary proof". The rappers do what they want without it. We can do likewise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.71.55.235 (talk) 12:27, September 22, 2009


 * Wikipedia articles are not for PR. This article is about gansta rap, and I can see how mentioning that some gangsta rappers have criminal records is relevant to this article, but because of WP:BLP policy you must cite reliable sources that back it up if you want to include this information. -- &oelig; &trade; 19:43, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

If so then edg has better things to do than create bad and inflammatory PR by insulting expressed opinions. As for reliable sources, I already provided wikipedia links. If wikipedia links aren't reliable sources for you, what is? Just follow the wikipedia links I gave and anyone can get a description of the skirmishes between these rappers and the law. I can make the links more precise by zeroing on the actual description if you prefer. You are right that they are relevant because that particular theme is paramount in their music. So I gather I can be bold and amend the article with the understanding that such links should be provided? Green light on this one? As for edg, he needs to make up his mind: you either embrace evil or you don't.  If it's the latter, the article HAS to be factual and objective without taking sides. If it's the former - well hey! - (and it looks like he is a fan) don't expect Queensbury rules not to apply to the rappers (and their fans) while the rest of us (including the police) have to play by them.
 * If you honestly think that listening to a song is "embracing evil" you probably shouldn't be editing this article at all, as you clearly will have difficulty maintaining a neutral point of view. The fact is that although many of these artists make songs describing acts of crime and violence, most of it is just stuff they made up to sell albums, and all the negative attention they get for it serves only to boost their record sales. Sure, Eazy-E was a drug dealer, and Ice-T was a gang banger and a pimp, but neither of them were ever convicted of any of the hundreds of murders described in their music. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:39, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Really.. you never heard of the term "studio gangster"?? And no, other Wikipedia links are not reliable sources, you can't use Wikipedia as reference to itself! Please be sure to read and understand WP:Verifiability policy and what constitutes a reliable source before making any edits. -- &oelig; &trade; 02:00, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

You exaggerate. How the devil would you know what these rappers have actually done or not done anyway? Let's not limit ourselves to drug-related offenses: E.g. rappers C-murder and Mac Minister were convicted of murder (hey! now there's a rhyme and song for you!). You're making gratitious assumptions. If I amend the current article, everyone is free to examine and edit if need be. If I write something outrageous, of course, it will be removed. There is a forum here. Where does it say the article should be written only by fans? If I stick to statements backup up by references i.e. crimes that reached convictions, stick to the facts, how can it be faulted? I make no pretense at being able to convince you or the rappers. It's not that you need more convinction. Actually some rappers only need one convinction, about 5 to 10 years :-) :-)

Also what you are claiming about wikipedia articles not using other wikipedia articles is very odd because (i) these articles are often written by different people and so it's not a reference to itself and (ii) as a matter of fact, hyperlinks with cross-referencing to other wikipedia articles is actually encouraged! But if you prefer, I can avoid the hyperlink and just provide the actual external reference used in that other wikipedia article even it means duplication of the said reference within wikipedia (although that duplication of reference is just dumb). Criminal records can be found out anyway. I am puzzled at the lack of - how shall I put it? - "consistency" within the comments I have seen. If eminem can write songs expressing a desire to kill his mother, and that is ok with you, then what on earth is wrong with my expressing a desire, in a song, or even a blog, to put a pistol next to Snoop Dog's head and force him to listen to endless recordings of Lawrence Welk? :-) :-)

I Can't Live Without My Radio by LL Cool J
could this be the earliest song where a rapper mentions themself as a gangster? beastie boys have a mention and rightfully so, but this song came out in '85 and possibly recorded or written in '84. the song referred to in the article by the beastie boys, which i assume is slow ride, came out in '86. despite not being a gangsta rap song, im just saying it could be considered noteworthy as the first moment in rap's history where a rapper called themself a gangster. can anyone else let me know of an earlier moment if i'm wrong here? --Leaf7 (talk) 21:21, 14 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Interesting.. you could be right, although LL Cool J is hardly a "gangsta".. the earliest mention I've heard about was Ice T in 1986. But you should definitely try asking at the Wikipedia Entertainment Reference Desk.. lots of very knowledgeable people there.. you're much more likely to receive an answer there. -- &oelig; &trade; 22:16, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Boogie Down section
Couple negative points about the first paragraph. First, the bit about 9mm Goes Bang is just plain wrong: "in it, KRS-One boasts about shooting rival weed-dealers, and cops after they try to kill him in his home." The only mention of cops is "it did not sound like any cop"; the rivals that he shot (in the song) were actually members of a crack dealer's posse. Second, the last sentence: "Shortly after the release of this album, BDP's DJ, Scott LaRock was shot and killed. After this, BDP's subsequent records were more focused with the inadequate rationale removed." What does the author mean by "inadequate rationale"? Without any prior elaboration, it could mean anything from the album cover's imagery to Scott LaRock's scratching. I've changed the line about 9mm somewhat. I also disagree with the summary of Criminal Minded offered in the section above: "It wasn't about messages or "You Must Learn", it was about gangsterism." Yeah it contains violent imagery, but is also loaded with lines about knowledge ("Elementary" and "Poetry" at the very least). But I'm not gonna bother changing that since it's not much of a deal.

While I'm on the topic, I would agree with the bit about Ice Cube toeing the line between glorification and denounciation [of violence], as it seems to be a common trait of gangsta rap and worth mentioning in this article. The best example I can think of is two contrasting lines from Criminal Minded: "I won't contemplate a battle cause it really ain't worth it / I'd rather point a pistol at your head and try to burst it" and "You seem to be the type that only understand the annihilation / and destruction of the next man / that's not poetry, that is insanity". But that's just my interpretation-- great rap challenges the listener to draw their own conclusions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.251.223.42 (talk) 23:16, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Geto Boys & Scarface
It's not fair. Geto Boys and Scarface are pioneers of gangsta rap yet they are hardly getting any mentions. Wanna know their influence? Well, Scarface back in 1989 wrote a song about selling cocaine and killing his rivals while sitting at the top position of the drug lords in his city with "Scarface" from Geto Boys' 1989 album, ''Grip It! On That Other Level''. This, went on to influence Kool G Rap's album Live and Let Die (1992) which got the idea for "Straight Jacket" right out of "Mind Playing Tricks on Me" by Geto Boys (1991). And Geto Boys are also pioneers in the fact that they took violence in gangsta rap to the next level. As evidenced in the 1990 version of "Mind of a Lunatic" they made graphic descriptions of necrophilia, rape and schizophrenic imagery which no one else in gangsta rap had gotten to at this point. Therefore the Geto Boys deserve a lot more credit not to mention they created horrorcore around the same time as Esham did in Detroit. They simply deserve a lot more credit, they came out in 1989 which is quite early for a still growing genre that only really had N.W.A "fully repping it". Want more? In his solo debut 1991's Mr. Scarface is Back, Scarface made descriptions of being mentally unstable, and made cocaine based drug related stories that is the staple for mafioso rap which even has it's own section. Hell, at this point I'd say Geto Boys are the most influence gangsta rap group next to N.W.A. MayhemCreator (talk) 21:14, 17 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree that Geto Boys are pioneers in Gangsta Rap, with Scarface of course being the first to popularize the whole Scarface Tony Montana craze and the first to actually sample the movie (don't quote me on this). And Ganksta N-I-P who is affiliated with Geto Boys has been doing the horrorcore thing since 1991, which is probably even before Esham and ICP (again, I don't know for sure) -- &oelig; &trade; 11:58, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Dan56 reverts
There isn't really anything to discuss, except that Dan56 is probably blind, since my citation clearly does match my edit. So Dan56, maybe you need to see an optician or something. Pass a Method  talk  07:05, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Please avoid ad hominem attacks and focus on content. Looking at that book you linked to, a quote I find on page 69 is "[Gangsta Rap] performers such as [...] advertised their association with various Crip factions", and on page 72 "Crips are not alone in their affinity for gangsta rap. Marion 'Suge' Knight, founder of Death Row Records, allegedly maintains links to the Bloods" (the sentence after that refers to Hip-hop performers, not Gangsta Rappers, with links to Bloods). In conclusion, the source you found supports that numerous gangsta rappers claim to have ties with Crips, and one producer allegedly has ties to Bloods. That is IMO a bit weaker than the claim that was in the article. Amalthea  07:45, 17 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I have just used your above description. I hope for a compromise from Dan56. If he repeats his previous actions i may have to seek an alternative, less friendly, route. Pass a Method   talk  10:31, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Again, focus on content please, avoid threats, and assume good faith: We are here to build an encyclopedia based on a few basic principles and policies. If Dan56 has valid concerns then he should remove the affected sections. The editing principle described in WP:BRD is established and accepted by the community, and reverts are often part of the process for finding a policy-based wording that has consensus (≠ compromise!). It's not personal. Amalthea  11:15, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll be sure to schedule an appointment for an optician soon, but for now, how about adding an inline citation correctly? The numerous citations added are still just bare links and does not specify the book page being cited, as I've noted in my edit summaries. Perhaps Template:Cite book, or whatever else is acceptable with Citing sources? Dan56 (talk) 16:11, 17 May 2011 (UTC)


 * There are several such refs which are cited just like mine throughout wikipedia. I have never seen an admin take issues with it, including the admin above Amalthea, so i say leave it as it is. Pass a Method   talk  16:22, 17 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Since you're so adament i will work on one of your concerns Pass a Method   talk  16:28, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Thievery
From the opening paragraph, isn't thievery the same as theft? 58.114.192.189 (talk) 02:00, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Splitting
I'd like to discuss splitting the "Mafioso rap" section into its own article -- mainly, for content issues. If you look at the comments in the discussion pages, you'll see that there are disputes about the coherence of "gangsta rap" as an actual musical genre. I for one think it's a term worth preserving. However imprecise it may be, it has a lot of cultural currency, especially within pop culture. But we have to be careful not to impose this term on artists who did not consider themselves to "gangsta."

For much of the nineties, gangsta rap was popularly associated with West Coast hip hop. Indeed, around the time when Raekwon released the seminal mafioso album, Only Built 4 Cuban Linx, gangsta rap would have been more likely used to describe the artists on the California label, Death Row Records. New York-area artists at the forefront of mafioso rap, such as Raekwon and AZ, did not conform to what was being passed as "gangsta rap," nor did they embrace the "gangsta image" being espoused by their Western counterparts. Whereas Tupac and Snoop Dogg inherited the sensibilities of NWA, mafioso rappers such as Raekwon and Az were influenced by the likes of Kool G Rap more than anyone else. For sure, their songs contained profanity and violence, but in a manner that was characteristic of East Coast hardcore rap.

As you'll see in the article itself, one of Raekwon's peers and group mates, GZA, actually contested the term "gangsta rap" - and saw it as misleading. Not only did "gangsta rap" have specific stylistic and regional associations - it was also quite politically-charged, thanks to the censoring efforts of Delores Tucker and Tipper Gore at the time. Today, the term "gangsta rap" has since become more neutral. It has evolved into an umbrella term -- as a catch-all for different styles of hip hop that share similar subject matter (e.g. criminal lifestyle and violence). Still, we should avoid retroactively imposing "gangsta rap" on mafioso rap -- to do so might be an anachronism. Aside from this, it is a sub-genre that's particularly distinct, with its own stylistic roots and developmental history - noteworthy to be included as a separate entry.

Several years ago, I authored mafioso rap as a separate article. If I recall, there was no agreement or discussion about changing this article into a revert. I would suggest we simply restore this article back to its original version. And in this current article, we can keep a line or two, along with a link to the separate article. Chubdub (talk) 16:22, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to point out, my intention is not to define either gangsta or mafioso rap as region-specific genres (for instance, Southern rap group, Ghetto-boys, were early contributors to Mafioso rap, and as this article points out, some of the earliest gangsta rapper were from NYC). And as I mentioned before, I feel the mafioso section should remain in this article, given the overlap that exists. Contemporary rappers, like Rick Ross and others, identify themselves as 'gangsta' and freely draw upon organized-crime references and materialism.

I just feel that a sub-genre as distinct as mafioso rap, merits its own separate article - so that it's taken on its own terms, and not merely as a subset of gangsta rap. Also, a separate article, would better reflect the regional and stylistic distinctions that were made during the mid-90s, so as to avoid undue conflation or anachronisms Chubdub (talk) 17:07, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Drill Music
Recently in Chico, there has been a sub-genre of Gangster Rap music emerging called Drill Music. I think that this is becoming mainstream enough to be included in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.151.53.8 (talk) 19:50, 5 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Part of the notability guideline is that a topic has received coverage from reliable independent sources, which can be cited for whatever is added to this article. Dan56 (talk) 20:11, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Quotation marks on the first line
This is a page about gangsta rap, why are thug and gangsta in quotes? Just seems kind of uppity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.89.19.26 (talk) 01:44, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

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Article Critique for MASS Communication Class ; Student
Is everything in the article relevant to the article topic? Is there anything that distracted you?

Everything is connected to the topic, which allowed the article to be readable. From writing on the origins of gangsta rap, to the decade that I would consider as the climax of the subgenre in the 1990’s to present section. The two aspects of the article, that had created a bit of a distraction to me, were the descriptions provided in the introduction, which I am going to dig deeper with in question 3 below, and the information placed in the 1990’s - present column that seemed to bring me back to the 80’s in the Hip-Hop and gangsta rap timeline. For example, the introduction of the Houston scene and Geto Boys, and Mafioso Rap, are detailed to have come about in the 1980’s. Although they did play a part in the 1990’s, I think the introduction of these topics should have been brought up in the article in the earlier column entitled Origins: 1984–1990. The issue that may come to mind is thinking about the most influential time of these topics which is in the 1990’s. We can further detail the topics in the 1990’s column, but maybe we can try to implement it inside the earlier column.

Is the article neutral? Are there any claims, or frames, that appear heavily biased toward a particular position? I think that the writer did a good job on keeping it neutral. The writer exploited each side of the gangsta rap phenomenon whether it was the political disagreement of the subject, or if it was the side that artists took in representing their subgenre of gangsta rap. We are able to read on the different problems this genre has created between the artists and other figures who have encountered it’s place in music and media.

Are there viewpoints that are overrepresented, or underrepresented? The article is well put together in terms of establishing the sections and what is contained in the sections. I think that the introduction creates a laundry list and over represents what both politicians and religious leaders believed gangsta rap promotes in American Society. Crime, serial killing, murder, violence, profanity, sex addiction, homophobia, and racism lead the list in what gangsta rap is considered to promote by religious leaders and politicians. However, this list only includes 8 of just over 20 terms listed in the introduction. Although it all may be true, and may cause a reader with no knowledge on gangsta rap to fully understand the information on it, it should be limited and not as long, since it comes across as a laundry list. Three things that I feel are underrepresented, are the sole stories of Tupac, the modern day hip hop era that includes aspects of gangsta rap in new subgenres, along with Tupac’s induction to the rock and roll hall of fame that follow up with the Biopic films that were released on Notorious B.I.G, Tupac Shakur, and N.W.A. I believe that it is reasonable to include Tupac’s sole stories because they are similar to that of Ice-T, who has his own section in the article. The modern day hip hop platform should be included as well because wikipedia pages are usually up to date. The new hip hop today includes lots of gangsta rap aspects but it is under a evolved form of music that is being added to the history books. Lastly, biopic films that have made it to commercial success within the last decade are about the lives of gangsta rap artists and groups like Tupac, Notorious B.I.G., and NWA., along with the rock and roll hall of fame induction of Tupac which has shown where gangsta rap, and hip hop, has come in terms of pop culture, which is why I think we can work together to include this in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChrisMoreno24 (talk • contribs) 22:29, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

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Vincent Staples
I was considering adding Vincent Staples to the mainstream section because I think he is relevant enough and some of his songs relates to gangsta rap.Basseywilson3 (talk) 00:30, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

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