Talk:Gangsta rap/Archive 2

Beastie Boys?
Since when can they be considered a heavy influence on your arse?!?! Also, calling Run DMC an influence on gangsta rap yet not mentioning Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five is sort of backwards. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DASA2 (talk • contribs) 21:16, 14 February 2007 (UTC).


 * Can someone make a good case for the Beastie Boys? They were certainly early and quick onto trends, and I'm pretty sure gangsta rappers took ideas from the Beasties, but (persona aside) how were the the Beasties innovators? Much of License To Ill (for instance) is very similiar to contemporary stuff on Def Jam by other artists.
 * As for Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, they are listed, but they're an influence on all rap. It's a bit like listing Chuck Berry as an influence. / edgarde 17:24, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The main issue here is that Wiki doesn't have an article for hardcore hip hop, which is that hard Run-DMC, early Beastie Boys, Public Enemy style. Hardcore is a definite precursor to gangsta, no doubt. To say they're the same thing, though, is a mistake. / MMBKG 11:47, 18 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.86.126.226 (talk)

Yo why you take out the beastie boys theymay not be true "gangstas" but this isnt the gansgta page this is gangsta rap page witch is the genre of music and some of the beastie boys work could be considerd gangsta rap.


 * Hardly. Beastie Boys have rarely rapped about gangster themes, if ever. -- &oelig; &trade; 02:00, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Gang violence, inner city poverty, crime
Should "Gang violence, inner city poverty, crime" remain in Gangsta rap's original major influences list? Obviously these things are lyrical concerns, but I think the "Influences" list is more about musical style influences. / edgarde 17:24, 5 April 2007 (UTC) HECK YEAH THEY SHOULD! Have you ever seen rappers that are not in poverty, crime, the inner city, that don't want to kill people? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.37.27.180 (talk) 05:23, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Ghetto Boys & Gangsta Rap
please explain to me why geto boys aren't listed and why are the artists called "instigators" that reeks of spiteful bias.furthermore why no one brings up the fact that gangsta rap also has socio political undertones to it??? User:Blackdragon6

maybe because they aren't important enough? We can't list every rapper on here after all.


 * Ghetto Boys are frequently appended to the Early list. I'm no expert, but I think they made a spash at the time &mdash; one party line was GB were the real thing and N.W.A were a hype (though I don't wish to debate that point, thanks).


 * Would someone consider adding a well-sourced mention of Ghetto Boys to the article, preferably emphasizing their influence? I think they're a few months too late to be Early. (I'd be careful about adding anything after N.W.A made it big, roughly 1987-88 1989.) / edg ☺ ★ 14:57, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

This is kind of dumb and emberassing: you put Beastie Boys in there who have absolutely no affiliation with Gangsta Rap yet you are not putting Geto Boys in there. That's pathetic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.237.191.42 (talk) 01:40, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Gangster rap or not?
Some guy around here edited the page because he thinks that Schoolly D is NOT a gangster rapper but rather only a hardcore rapper. I find this claim quite absurd, as Schoolly D's wikipedia article says he pioneered gangster rap, but what do you guys think? This guy seems to think that Ice-T did pioneer gangster rap as he pretty much followed the steps of Schoolly D..


 * Per above, I agree with categorizing Schoolly under Hardcore rap. I'd like to find the context for that Ice-T quote, but even as quoted on the Schoolly D article, T seems to think he took it over a line Schoolly hadn't quite crossed.
 * Whatever. I'll say I don't think that part of this article should be changed. &mdash; edgarde 09:20, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Wtf is the difference between hardcore rap and gangsta rap? (Its Gangsta not gangster by the way). To me they are the same. 153.18.17.22 21:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The difference between Gangsta Rap and hardcore rap is that Gangsta Rap is usually about life in the projects making references towards drugs and violence also gangsta rappers can make slight political yet aggressive lyrics aimed toward police, now Hardcore Rap has aggressive and bashful lyrics using cuss words but not necessarily discussing about the projects or making refernces towards drugs or violence. a good example of Hardcore Rap would be Chamillionaire and a good example of Gangsta Rap would be let's just say Eazy-E.76.101.122.31 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 00:33, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Kris Kross Reference
Kris Kross is not a gangsta rap group. Any reference to them needs to be removed. Additionally, I removed rappin 4-tay because he was listed under southern gangsta rap when he is from San Francisco. Also, isn't bling bling a subset of rap in itself? I don't think it should be a part of gangsta rap. I suspect most real gangsta rappers would agree with me. 153.18.17.22 21:56, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Request for Improvement
The mafioso rap section's last sentence is incomplete. Can whoever wrote this please complete it. Also, the heading of the following section seems to require format improvements.

Many thanks

Schoolly D lyrics

 * In his 1984 12" single "Gangster Boogie" he mentions it with "I shot call a ? with my gangster lean"

I think if we're going to have this in the article, we need to find out what the missing word is... - furrykef (Talk at me) 05:00, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Subgenre list
In what's sure to be an ongoing nuisance list, an anonymous editor has added "subgenres" to the infobox, with the following: Am I correct in assuming these are not subgenres of gangsta rap, and should go in another article. "Australian" sets a bad precedent because rap music exists now in many countries, in many languages. (French rap being especially fun for us anglophones.)
 * Australian Hip Hop
 * Oldschool
 * Trash Beat

Could we agree on a list of subgenres that aren't really side-genres? Or is it better to simply delete that info from the infobox? / edgarde 04:01, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Critical acclaim: No Limit vs. CMR
You wrote:

"Cash Money Records, also based out of New Orleans, had enormous commercial success with a very similar musical style and quantity-over-quality business approach to No Limit but achieved even less critical acclaim and were widely ridiculed."

Most rap fans would tell you that CMR garnered more critical acclaim and less ridicule than No Limit. You should at least change the language to make it more neutral.

both were successful, neither were critically acclaimed. problem solved. Drumac 01:18, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Controversy
Should there be a seperate section on "criticism of gangsta rap", or "controversy" or something like that? Because there is some mentions of criticism of Gangsta rap in the introduction, but there is no section of the article that clearly presents the arguments for and against Gangsta Rap. Heavy Metal Cellist talkcontribs


 * A Criticism or Controversy section would need to be kept strictly WP:NPOV, and unsourced material should be removed on sight. Otherwise this section may be dominated by drive-by editorials. / edg ☺ ☭ 20:10, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

this article shouldn't be "for" or "against" gangsta rap. It should explain what it is. This is an encyclopedia after all.
 * If it's WP:NPOV, then it should be unbiased either for or against it, and should include all opinions on the matter that have been researched. Of course that research has to be done by someone first, or we can't include it. I wouldn't have thought that the kind of people who listen to Gangsta Rap would be that inclined to visit Wikipedia in the first place, so I doubt that many experts on the subject will come forward to do the work, and if they did, they'd hardly be inclined to create a subsection noting criticisms of their beloved music (and I use the term very loosely). But then again, this is solely my opinion, and their maybe someone out their that's willing to do it. Bennelliott  •  Talk  •  Contributions  21:25, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I think that certain versions of both the disscussion and the article have reeked of anti-gangsta rap bias. I dont like that wiki_is_unique (talk) 14:01, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Opinion: I see controversy sections on other music genres such as Emo and many of my other favorite genres have sections dedicated to the controversy against the genre, and those sections, even though they show an anti-whatever POV, the section itself is WP:NPOV. This is because a controversy is not just one person, but multiple people or parties, all with opinions and biases, but those POV's are cited clearly to their respective sources. 64.237.163.30 (talk) 02:44, 18 February 2010 (UTC)Not yet registered

"Decline"
The reasons given for (and the fact of) the commercial decline of Gansta Rap in the last couple years are dubious, unsupported, and unsourced except for a single Bill O'Reilly (a dedicated scholar of Hip Hop if there ever was one) conjecture. The degree to which Biggie Smalls is responsible for the Virginia Tech massacre, for example, to say nothing of the number of people who actually believe this, and the influence an accusation like that has on your average rap consumer's purchasing choice, isn't considered very critically or neutrally. If there are no objections, I'm going to try and find actual information on the popularity of the genre and rewrite the section. S. Martin 22:46, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Please do, it makes me really uncomfortable that such vague and un-sourced information could be used to justify some perceived decline in gangsta rap. I will see if i can find some information also.CyberMax1024 02:33, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Sugarhill Gang
Should the Sugarhill Gang be mentioned in the "groups who influenced gangsta rap" but were not really gangsta rap? They had the first commercially successful rap song, so I think it's fair to say they had some influence on all rap. They also have been sampled by gangsta rappers such as Notorious B.I.G. and Boogie Down Productions. User:BBonds 21:56, 5 March 2007 (UTC) This comment was actually added 2007-07-25T13:46:50. No explanation for why it is dated March. / edg ☺ ★ 17:24, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Can't deny the Sugarhill Gang were influential, but I don't think we can reasonably list all influences on rap in general as Gangsta rap influences. This should be limited to more direct precedents. / edg ☺ ★ 13:55, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Spice 1 and Sir Jinx on Early gangsta rap artists list ?
Spice 1, whose albums started coming out in 1991, seems too late for Early gangsta rap artists. I think the cutoff date should be when Straight Outta Compton hit big, roughly 1989 (or late 1988).

Sir Jinx is a stub with connections. Is he notable enough to be included in Early gangsta rap artists?

Either one of these artists may be notable enough for a mention in the article, but I think they should be removed from Early gangsta rap artists list. Any objections? / edg ☺ ★ 15:39, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

NPOV regarding criticisms
I understand the criticism being listed,but why is their no counterargument to balance it out??--Blackdragon6


 * I guess the problem is finding counterarguments. Adverse criticism of gangsta rap is everywhere &mdash; a few days ago I heard repeated indictments in a discussion of emergency medicine completely unrelated to music or media. If anyone can provide a few well-sourced and notable counterpoints (that gangsta rap serves a social good, that it's good art, anything good), they could be a great improvements to the article. / edg ☺ ★ 14:52, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

well i have seen SOME decent counter arguments,but of course they was promptly deleted.also the criticism don't seem to be well sourced either--Blackdragon6 19:30, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

If you have counter-criticism and can source it the post in on here, we can sort out the wording, and it can be added to the article. Though personally I can't see a way of justifying glorification of violence, drugs, etc. Though if there is counter-critcism supporting those lifestyle choices then we can think about adding it to the article. MattUK 14:19, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

How about the counter-arguments by the artists themselves? 2Pac constantly defended his music (although he denied his music was gangsta rap). I remember him saying in an interview once that he didn't create these problems, he merely diagnosed it. Ice Cube's retort is, that why are people blaming the problems on gangsta rap, because if those conditions didn't exist, he wouldn't have anything to talk about. I also think its a bit much to say that they are glorifying violence and drugs. For sure, there are some artists that glorify those things. There are also a lot of artists who paint a grim, bleak and hopeless picture with their description of people stuck in lives of crime. Remember, glorifying means they are saying that it is a good idea to do those things and live that life. I don't think most artists are saying that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.3.146.137 (talk) 11:08, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Criticism from within Rap/hip-hop
IMHO, some space should be given to criticism of Gangsta Rap from within the rap world (by groups such as Public Enemy for example), as many Rappers, particularly more politically driven ones, have condemned Gangsta Rap as being detrimental to the black communityIsaac Benaron 20:49, 16 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. Sourced additions would be very welcome. / edg ☺ ★ 16:05, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

>>>>> I agree. Can we PLEASE add a section including criticisms? I would do it myself but don't know enough on the topic. Gangsta rap is extremely sexist and degrading of women. I am tired of listening to Snoop Dogg state that women should be "put in their place" by getting "slapped in the face." What is wrong with him? Clearly, this is one guy who has major issues with women/is scared of them? and feels the need to insult them. I'm just tired in general of these music videos with half naked women dancing behind fully clothed men. Why don't these music videos ever cater to straight women like me (not to mention gay people of both sexes)? I would *love* to see a video where the woman is powerful, has all her clothes on ,and has hot guys with nice bodies dancing behind her. But in american culture, the women have to be the meat on display and the men get to cover up their tubby stomachs under baggy gangsta clothes. It's not just gangsta rap that does this -- there's plenty of white artists, Jamaican artists, other artists who do it too -- but gangsta rappers are the most vocal about calling women "bitches" and "ho's." Anyway .. I really look forward to the day when I get to see guys treated like sex objects and nothing more, the way women are today. Gangsta rappers should be ashamed of themselves .. but of course, they're not, because the rich (often white) record executives are happy to pay them millions of dollars to spew out hateful trash —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.112.229.28 (talk) 04:30, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * You might notice reading this Talk page that pretty much all criticism, positive or negative, gets objections here. Any criticism added should be sourced and notable. / edg ☺ ☭ 05:19, 27 December 2007 (UTC)