Talk:Gareth Bale/Archive 2

Confirmation of Transfer fee
I have ammended the section on the transfer fee paid. The documents pertaining to the transfer have now been leaked and the fee confirmed as €100,759,418. Sue De Nimes (talk) 12:39, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

picture
http://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2016/01/10/13/gareth-bale-23324.jpg

Bale would prefer this — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hoonday123 (talk • contribs) 01:49, 26 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Since the image is hosted at a newspaper's website, it's safe to say that this image is not free for us to use. —C.Fred (talk) 02:00, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 July 2016
Gareth Bale's near-selection for the Great Britain Olympics side in 2012 do not constitute a whole other section of this page. This tournament is for U-23 sides only, not an international team. In addition, he never actually played for the team. The information provided in this section of the article would be better places as an additional paragraph in the "Wales" section of the article, rather than constituting one of its own accord. Thanks.

2A02:C7F:1C12:BD00:9C95:94BF:C194:D9B2 (talk) 01:54, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: There is currently a lot of text in the Britain subsection. Putting it under Wales might need consensus before a change is made. — Andy W.  ( talk  · ctb) 22:37, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 July 2016
Please add, under Honours, using the same formatting as 'Club': Country Wales UEFA European Championship Semi-finals: 2016 Please link 'UEFA European Championship' to 'https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_European_Championship'. Please link '2016' to 'https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2016' I will happily do this myself if allowed, as I encourage article accuracy and express avid enthusiasm towards football.

AdzieTheWelsh43 (talk) 16:15, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.  B E C K Y S A Y L E S  18:30, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 July 2016
You have forgotten to add to Gareth Bale's honours. He is in the UEFA CHAMPIONS LEAGUE TEAM OF THE SEASON:2016. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_UEFA_Champions_League#Squad_of_the_season

Gareth Bale fan11 (talk) 15:33, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done — Andy W.  ( talk  · ctb) 22:01, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 July 2017
please add to 'endorsements and wealth' that he opened a new sports bar called Elevens bar and grill in partnership with S.A Brain Co Ltd the country's biggest hospitality company. Devansh1103 (talk) 09:31, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The policy on biographies of living persons requires sources to be reliable and independent for verification purposes. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 12:52, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Individual honours at Spurs
Should they not come under a Tottenham heading? Govvy (talk) 13:55, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Gareth Bale Tottenham league cup medal.
Real Madrid have a league cup down for Bale on their website, which is his 2009 runner medal, I would think it would be good to list it in honours, I tried earlier, I would like to know what other editors think. There is no consensus against listing it. Govvy (talk) 14:02, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
 * They could be counting the 2008 League Cup, even though Bale wasn't involved in the final. In any case, I would be inclined to include it.  He may have only been a runner-up, but recipients do receive a medal and I think WP should reflect this. Mattythewhite (talk) 14:39, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Well my problem with 2008 is even know he played against Middlesborough in Spurs first league game of that season and won I don't see a medal on him from this photo, Govvy (talk) 15:20, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree. I thought it was pretty standard to include runners-up medals in honours lists and I'm not aware of any consensus against including this. Nzd   (talk)  16:15, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
 * There was never a direct consensus against competitive runner up medals, but PeeJay seems to think otherwise. Govvy (talk) 16:44, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
 * It's not up to me to prove why it shouldn't be included, it's up to you to prove why it should. Personally, I've never seen a source that includes runners-up finishes as "honours", but that might just be me. – PeeJay 17:16, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I just told you why earlier, because he played in the final and received a medal for his efforts! I provided citation as in the match report, that with a combination of logic should indicate he got a medal! Sites like Soccerway list runner up medals, but wiki doesn't like soccerway. Govvy (talk) 17:31, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
 * You "telling me" why it should be included is not evidence, it's just your opinion. And yes, you provided a citation that he was a runner-up in the competition, but you have yet to provide a link to a website that actually lists the 2009 League Cup among his honours. – PeeJay 00:32, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Hmm, well you have three sites that list 2008 honour, Real Madrids own website, Eurosport and Soccerway, which also lists his 2009 runner-up. Considering he played in the 2009 final, that pretty much guarantees a medal, I am still not sure why you want to deny that. Govvy (talk) 12:19, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Honours
Unlisted as of yet, but Bale was top scorer at the 2018 China Cup — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michaelmckean95 (talk • contribs) 23:49, 4 February 2019 (UTC)


 * It is a friendly tournament . Matthew hk (talk) 01:18, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Fair enough. Though Eduardo Vargas, voted best player of the 2017 tournament, has that award listed under his 'honours' Michaelmckean95 (talk) 22:31, 5 February 2019 (UTC) MM
 * Should be removed. You can go ahead. Kante4 (talk) 05:58, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Add to early life: He is the cousin of Cardiff MCCU cricketer Oliver Pike
He is the cousin of Cardiff MCCU cricketer Oliver Pike   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:B7C5:EF00:21D2:2B82:30BE:67E7 (talk) 20:21, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Can't you use any picture doesn't look retarded?
Like https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Liver-RM_(2)_(cropped).jpg which is even more recent. --94.254.185.111 (talk) 08:30, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Please don't use words like 'retarded'. The current picture is fine. – PeeJay 12:48, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Are you making him look special needs on purpose? Use the more recent photo where he makes no handicapped grimace. --94.254.177.182 (talk) 16:42, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Again, please stop using ableist slurs. He's sticking his tongue out, that's just how the photographer happened to catch him at the time. It's a fine photo, and you've not really provided any compelling reason to change it. – PeeJay 21:15, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

There are 2 reasons:


 * It's outdated
 * It's not even his normal face

This:




 * Is more up to date
 * is his actual normal face — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.254.189.214 (talk) 18:06, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
 * An uncropped version of that photo is already in the article, so it wouldn't be wise to use it again. He hasn't really changed his appearance in the last four years, so a close-up photo is better than a grainy one, even if you think he looks "retarded". – PeeJay 11:54, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 December 2020
Gareth Bale won the 2008 English League Cup with Tottenham, yet it is missing from his Wiki page. Please add it. 2A02:C7F:144B:A00:31DF:F8A1:21EF:75FF (talk) 22:48, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure English honours only usually apply if the player appeared in the final and thus received a medal for that title. He did appear in one League Cup match that season, but is that enough? – PeeJay 01:19, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Melmann 00:58, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 February 2021
120.159.185.15 (talk) 13:52, 25 February 2021 (UTC) Gareth Bale has scored 4 goals for Tottenham in his second stint, not 1. This needs updating.
 * He's actually scored six goals since returning to Spurs, but only one of them was in the league. Nothing needs updating. – PeeJay 14:55, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 May 2021
someone put in march instead of may 86.188.208.60 (talk) 16:25, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting question.svg Question: Where and why? Run n Fly (talk) 18:01, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 August 2021
He has gotten squadnumber 18 according to La Ligas website Beeohtee (talk) 01:37, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:40, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

2016 UEFA Super cup
Bale did not play in the 2016 Super cup but was in the UEFA squad, did he not receive a winner's medal for being part of the 2016 team ? Cltjames (talk) 22:06, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Was discussed here. Kante4 (talk) 22:22, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
 * OK, show's good incentive to have a poll. However this is fact based research not a voting system, we need to know if Gareth Bale received one of the 40 medals given to Real Madrid in the 2016 Super Cup game, if so then he is honoured with a trophy that season, if not then the article can stay as it is. Cltjames (talk) 17:18, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Receiving a medal does not necessarily mean the player should be credited with having won that title. We credit players with honours when they are part of a team’s squad for that tournament. Bale was not listed in the Real Madrid squad for the 2016 Super Cup. – PeeJay 23:45, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Would the editor controlling this article please respond with comment regard Bale receiving a medal for the 2016 UEFA Super cup, yet there not being any mention of Bale's participation in the squad or the game. Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football Cltjames (talk) 13:24, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by "the editor controlling this article"? – PeeJay 14:52, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Well, PeeJay, it seems your name is coming up on several articles in regard to football, almost like your controlling these articles. Like I mentioned in the Wikiproject thread, there is a chance to add a note about the fact a medal was received without an appearance, it only makes sense to add every bit of information regarding any player. Cltjames (talk) 15:57, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:52, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Contemporary drawing of Gareth bale.jpg

Artwork of Bale removed
Image was first removed by because that user was unsure if the art was stolen or not (I added proof to show the image was not stolen), he/she requested the image for deletion.. although after verifying the work, I reverted the removal and Deamon then thanked me for clearing it up.. although he/she never reverted her/his request, to which is still up for a deletion request.

The image was then removed by because that user thought it had no value.. that's fine, but PeeJay then went onto the image page and then clicked on the deletion request where he/she remarked; "I see very little encyclopaedic value to this artwork. It's not had any public attention, as far as I can tell, and there are far better options when it comes to representation of Bale.".. uploads do not need to have public attention as Wikipedia relies mostly on original content, preferably out of copyright restrictions, so her/his remark was an opinion, and not based on fact, therefore his action breaks wiki's 'Neutral point of view' rule, due to this the image was reverted.

Finally, the image was removed by stating; 'several (2) Editors disagreed with you so you should start a discussion'.

Therefore, none of the editors above removed the image out of any legitimate reason and the image was removed simply because of misunderstanding, personal opinion and because someone didn't like that there was activity happening within the article's edit history.

I'd understand if the image was removed becuase it was not needed, but the way it was removed was just bizarre, no wonder people see wiki as a joke. Hogyncymru (talk) 22:02, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't know if there's a question or proposal in all of that or if you're just venting, but I agree with the editors who removed it. The article has sufficient photographs of the person. The drawing does not add encyclopedic value. Schazjmd   (talk)  22:06, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

LAFC
"Not yet confirmed", per BBC. Seasider53 (talk) 05:34, 26 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Agree with the BBC source and this link which states " ‘Secondary Transfer Window’ opens on July 7 " so I've part reverted some of today's edits to say he is still contracted as a Real Madrid player till that contract expires. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 13:02, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

I think it would be good to expand to one of the greatest British players of all time.. not just Welsh.
Quite obviously he’s rightly regarded as the best ever Welsh player but it wouldn’t be silly to argue that he usurps the vast majority of great players to come from all four nations of the UK. He’s undoubtedly up there with Best, Dalglish, Rooney, Law, Matthew’s, Beckham, Gascoigne, Law, Charlton, Hoddle, Gerrard, Scholes and Lampard. 81.101.182.185 (talk) 01:16, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Adding of additional goal international record to 40 instead of 39 stated currently
Following a technical review Gareth’s previously ‘deflected own goal’ scored against Ukraine has subsequently been awarded to him following a technical review conducted by FAW on the 29/06/22. This adjustment would take his tally to 40 goals for wales, as apposition to the 39 as stated currently. 2A00:23C5:5699:4501:8177:D2CA:2A5B:B0C5 (talk) 08:10, 14 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Updated with the link provided from the immediate below section which states that he is awarded with the goal instead of it being an own goal. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 21:21, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 July 2022
Gareth Bale has 40 international goals, as a post-game review decided that the own goal versus Ukraine was in fact his. Link: https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2022-06-29/gareth-bale-awarded-goal-that-sent-wales-to-world-cup-following-review 2A00:23C7:46BE:7F01:B40F:71E5:6991:177A (talk) 19:38, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Agree with your edit request and have also read that link you provided so I have updated the article with that website as the reference. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 21:19, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
 * If this is the case, why has UEFA not updated its record of the match to give Bale credit for the goal? We've heard a lot about an "official review" but it's all come via news sources with no actual basis to them. – PeeJay 20:54, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:23, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Bale- street art, Whitchurch, Cardiff (27913333605).jpg

Honours
Must include Club World Cup 2016 and Supercopa de España 2020 and 2022 in Honours. 88.5.235.90 (talk) 00:18, 6 November 2022 (UTC)


 * And you're basing that on what? Bale wasn't included in the squad for the 2020 or 2022 Supercopa de España, and he didn't even travel to Norway for the 2016 UEFA Super Cup... – PeeJay 18:44, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 November 2022
Hi - Gareth Bale won the League cup with spurs in 07/08 - I was there to see him lift the trophy and collect a medal - he made at least one app in this comp that season - I believe even defoe recieved a medal for that season even tjough he left us in January 2008. 77.99.191.73 (talk) 15:45, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - FlightTime  ( open channel ) 15:54, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
 * If you were there then you should know only the first 11, the subs and Ramos were the only ones to be given medals on the day. If he received a medal later I don't know, but he was on crutches at Wembley. Govvy (talk) 17:38, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 January 2023
Former Welsh instead of Welsh Former Hariiiiiis (talk) 15:35, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Welsh is the nationality, and it seems he is still Welsh, despite being a former football player. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:42, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

"was"
He was a professional footballer Wales captain Gareth Bale retires from football 87.242.223.122 (talk) 15:25, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, so he's a Welsh former footballer as the article says. He is still Welsh, and he is still alive, so "Gareth Bale was a footballer" would be incorrect. Joseph2302 (talk) 17:20, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Football league Cup/EFL Gareth bale
Gareth bale won the football league Cup for spurs in the 2007-08 season but it's not shown in the honors column 103.233.65.82 (talk) 17:40, 9 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Did he actually win it? He wasn't involved in the final, which is the usual yardstick for competitions where you don't have to register a squad (such as the Champions League). I see he played one match in the competition that season, and even scored a goal, but I don't think that's enough to say he won it. – PeeJay 19:13, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 January 2023 (2)
Gareth bale is a former professional footballer who played the majority of his career as a winger. He is widely regarded as one of the greatest players of his generation and one of the best British players of all time. 2A00:23C7:2182:A601:A4EB:6163:F1D6:2BE6 (talk) 23:04, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Not done, he played for the Wales national team (over a 100 caps), so describing him as Welsh is more appropriate than British. -- Mvqr (talk) 10:58, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Golf player in the future?
Should we add things like how some people are calling him to be a great golf player in the future? I hear Pep Guardiola telling the media that. JoshuaInWiki (talk) 08:20, 11 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't think so. We don't even know if he's going to be joining the professional golf circuit yet. – PeeJay 16:36, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 April 2023
Remove Wrexham from career history as it is not confirmed 82.23.67.209 (talk) 13:12, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting wait.svg Already done  — Paper9oll  (🔔 • 📝)  14:44, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Gareth Bale as a "player" in 2023?
Can someone explain why he's shown on his infobox as having a senior career ending in 2023, when his last game was in 2022? Mark Viduka had a similar story, retiring from all forms of football in 2009, but we only show his national career until 2007, as that was his last game for the Socceroos (even though he was still active until his retirement)? Why one rule for one and not the other? Why isn't Ryan Giggs shown as a Man Utd player until 2016, as he was at the club until then?- J man708 (talk) 22:40, 12 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Because there's an edit war going back and forth. I feel like it should be 2022 only. He officially retired beginning of January when the final game was November 2022. The paperwork was probably filed before the new year anyways. This is one of those where people aren't seeing the forest for the trees and are being sticklers because the source article has January 2023 in the year. RedPatch (talk) 22:46, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
 * It should be 2022 IMHO, as he is not a player for the LAFC 2023 season. GiantSnowman 22:59, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
 * It's similar to discussion above. Dr Salvus 23:00, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
 * No, it's not. GiantSnowman 23:02, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree 2022 is best. &#x2014; Amakuru (talk) 23:03, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Per the infobox template documentation, the senior career section should include "A list of years that the player has been contracted at each club". Bale was contracted to LAFC until 2023. Mattythewhite (talk) 23:05, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
 * How do you know he didn't exercise his break clause in December, but only announce retirement in January? GiantSnowman 23:15, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't know whether he did or didn't, although I don't see why we would *assume* that he did? Per that report, he signed an 18-month contract in the summer of 2022, and unless it's *confirmed* otherwise that appears to have remained in place until his retirement was announced earlier this month. Mattythewhite (talk) 23:26, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, we need reliable sources to tell us if he did that, not speculate. Spike &#x27;em (talk) 23:34, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
 * He retired in 2023, and we have no indication that he was released or contract ran out in 2022. So I think 2023 makes the most sense unless we get evidence otherwise.--Ortizesp (talk) 23:38, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I'll put it another way - If he'd been a lesser known player back years ago, with the limited information on offer, this wouldn't even have been a question. We'd have only his last match to go off of and thus would show the last year he played and not the end of his final contract. Keep in mind, this 2023 shit only creates ambiguity, when compared to every other player whose final year coincidences with their final appearance. Had Bale done his ACL in the World Cup and retired upon his return from injury in 2024, what would we show then? - J man708 (talk) 00:10, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
 * He was still a player into 2023, so should be listed as 2022-23. This is no different to someone who transfers teams on 2 January 2023, who would be a player at their old club in 2023, even if they didn't play. Joseph2302 (talk) 11:52, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Once again this community refuses to use WP:COMMONSENSE. His career ended in 2022, plain and simple. Nothing stops editors to mention his "official" retirement in January in text, with a source added. --BlameRuiner (talk) 13:42, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
 * His career ends when he announces his retirement, which was 2023. Also, please WP:AGF towards other editors. Joseph2302 (talk) 13:45, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm also inclined to say he was an LA player till 9 January as the 12 months did not expire that January but in June 2023. If he didn't retire he would still play with Los Angeles FC till the 12 months are up. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 21:11, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
 * But that's the point. He didn't once take to the field as a player in 2023. - J man708 (talk) 08:44, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
 * he was still under contract. if a player breaks his leg and misses an entire year of his career and then retires we dont just pretend he wasn't contracted for that season. if bale had instead been sold in january to someone else we would be listed as still being a player there until 2023. he was contracted for multiple years then retired and as such should be listed as 2023. he wasnt released in 2022, he was still an active player signed to that mls team until 2023. if bale had broke his leg in december 2022 and then decided to retire at the end of 2023 cuz a year later his leg just wasnt the same... we dont just pretend he was only a player till 2022 just cuz he didnt play in 2023. lots of players go years without playing - back up goalkeepers for example. do we pretend Robert Green retired in 2017 instead of 2019 because he didnt play for 2 years?Muur (talk) 04:42, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
 * In both cases, the player was an active, non retired player during that time - injured or not. Bale was never available for any games in 2023, as he'd retired by their first game. - J man708 (talk) 15:28, 16 January 2023 (UTC)2023.
 * We go by what sources say (in this case, LAFC's statement in January 2023). Nehme1499 15:46, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Major League Soccer is not 2022–2023 season like European football.
 * Gareth Bale only played for LA FC in 2022 season. New season of MLS will begin in March 2023.
 * 2022–2023 in infobox cause misunderstanding. Gareth Bale played for LA FC both in 2022 season and 2023 season.
 * Infobox: 2022 / career section: Bale retired in January 2023
 * This is the best.
 * Footwiks (talk) 06:38, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

The above discussion was copied from Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football/Archive_158 Daemonickangaroo2018 (talk) 14:11, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

grammar awkwardness
"Bale is teetotal" is an awkward sounding sentence. Even if it may or may not be technically correct the way it reads causes the reader to pause because of the way it sounds not feeling natural. "Bale is a teetotaler." "...follows the teetotal way of life." "...is a proponent of an alcohol-free life." "...advocates for teetotalism."

I am not going to attempt to make any changes to the article, I just want to put this point forward. 2601:154:C000:4CF0:111A:FDA2:3C44:A183 (talk) 16:52, 5 January 2024 (UTC)


 * The entry on Collins Dictionary says "He will not be having a celebratory drink, as he is teetotal". It is acceptable to use teetotal as an adjective just as much as "Bale is Welsh". Given Bale's reputation as one to speak through his football rather than the microphone, we don't know if he has "advocated" or is a "proponent" of not drinking, we just know he doesn't drink. Unknown Temptation (talk) 19:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)