Talk:Garner Ted Armstrong

Untitled
Howdy, Obbop here, sharing a wee bit of info with the huddled masses yearning to be free. Garner Ted Armstrong wrote a book titled "The Real Jesus." I recommend it for anybody curious about the subject matter; and you don't have to be "religious" to enjoy the book. Not saying I agree or disagree with Armstong's writings. I do say it's a decent read and does add to one's knowledge base. Obbop told you this. 209.50.1.97 05:17, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Who's he?
In the following two paragraphs, found at the end of the section on Rader, it is unclear who "he" refers to:


 * Meanwhile, in January 1976, he appeared on the television show Hee Haw. Some saw this as an increasing focus on secular pursuits.


 * In 1977, he officiated at the wedding of his father to the former Ramona Martin. The two would separate in 1982, and divorce in 1984. Unfree (talk) 00:37, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

(Both references to "he" are about things that Garner Ted did, not about Stan Rader. DM) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.219.189.170 (talk) 04:20, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Scandals
Xb2u7Zjzc32 (talk) 03:34, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
 * The Los Angeles Times, Los Angeles, California. Sunday, February 24, 1974 - Page 18
 * The Los Angeles Times, Los Angeles, California. Sunday, February 24, 1974 - Page 19
 * The Los Angeles Times, Los Angeles, California. Wednesday, February 27, 1974 - Page 40
 * The Los Angeles Times, Los Angeles, California. Thursday, February 28, 1974 - Page 44
 * continues for months

Massage scandal
Nary a mention of it in the article. The police sting video was acquired by revengeismydestiny.com and sold for years under the title "Garner Ted Armstrong Rubs Me the Wrong Way".

Some research and sourcing could make this a useful addition to the article. 86.176.175.184 (talk) 22:49, 19 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Bobby_Fischer mentions a scandal and links to this page, but I see nothing on the scandal in the article. 69.22.242.15 (talk) 12:28, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Massage Scandal Blanking
In IP 174.255.136.92 editor's most recent edit, the edit summary reads: "Later ministry: ref. 17 and 19 do not support statements and lead to blank pages. Ref. 18 leads to a personal blog which is not a verified allowable Wiki source for a reference"diff. The references referred to are:
 * (17) Rivera, Geraldo. "Garner Ted Armstrong Sexual Assault". The Painful Truth. Geraldo Rivera Show. Retrieved 15 January 2012.
 * (18) "Garner Ted Armstrong and the Masseuse"
 * (19) "1998", The Journal - News of the Churches of God, Timeline 1998

AntiVan (talk) 22:59, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
 * 17 - is indeed the video of Ms Robertson making a sexual assault allegation, and includes the security camera footage of the man she says is Armstrong apparently assaulting her.
 * 18 - a web page from the 'Exit And Support Network'. Definitely POV, but supports the claim in the article text that there was an allegation. I agree it's not a high quality source, but it's not a 'blog page', its a web page of a POV organisation.
 * 19 - Leads to the archive of journals, presumably one of these has the claim in it, but it's not clear which one. Until someone reads through them, this is the weakest source, but it's also for the least sensational claim in the text being removed - that Armstrong was removed from CGI by it's directors.

Okay, I've cleaned this up a bit, changed the Geraldo Rivera video to a youtube link - more likely to work for all readers, and added in a better reference for a good NPOV description of the scandal (Holly Martin's piece in the Dallas Observer) and the New York Times obit for the being chucked out of his own church.

I agree with earlier editors suggesting that there's enough good secondary sources to expand Wikipedia's coverage of the scandals. The obituaries of him by reputable sources have a much larger % coverage of this than in this article as it currently stands, and I worry that that could be as a result of blanking by interested parties. If anyone is keen to pursue this the Holly Martin article would be a great kicking off point, but also see NYTimes, Telegraph, LA Times. I also understand a book about Herbert Armstrong's father by David Robinson contains a lot of detail about the earlier scandals.

AntiVan (talk) 00:50, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Clearly this insert of a smear campaign is being pursued by AntiVan, a completely biased Armstrong hater. This article has been online for years, and Armstrong has been dead for 14 years so why now does this AntiVan come along and insist on smearing the deceased. Obvious evil motives and intent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.255.132.218 (talk) 16:18, 8 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks for bringing your argument to the talk page for discussion, that's usually a more productive way to sort these things out that continual revisions. I'd also suggest creating a username, it's not required for editing, but it's simpler for people to keep track of who they are talking to in discussions.
 * I can see you feel passionate about this and I respect that. It's not the role of Wikipedia to promote or persecute anyone, but to provide verifiable articles on notable subjects. I do strive to achieve that, and hope that you do as well.
 * In regard to your edit saying the allegations were false, that will be fine to add if, and only if, you can find a quality secondary source where the sheriff or prosecutor state that. I added in something to the effect that 'no charges were brought' and that civil actions also failed because that's what is supported by the sources.
 * In regard to your comment about youtube not being a quality source, I'd have to agree in general. However in this case, it's a video of the complainant, on a national TV show making the allegations, and it's being used to support the statement in the article that allegations existed - which clearly it does.
 * In regard to your question of why I have taken an interest in this article: I regularly look for vandalism and non-constructive editing on Wikipedia. I noticed that this article was being systematically blanked of all information critical of the subject, including claims that were supported by references. When an anon ip, perhaps you, questioned the veracity of the references I took the time to do a little research to find good quality secondary sources for the controversial statements that were being repeatedly deleted, and in the process discovered that Mr Armstrong was most notable for his father, his role in various churches and the scandals surrounding his sexual interests. This led me to note above that our coverage of the scandals is not given sufficient weight if we compare the Wikipedia article to his obituaries in the NY Times or LA Times.
 * AntiVan (talk) 02:40, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
 * re: the YouTube link. There is no explicit ban on using YouTube as a reference on Wikipedia; but YouTube links frequently run afoul of other policy concerns. In this case, if the video had been uploaded by the originally broadcasting network or program, it could potentially be usable. But, it appears to be uploaded by a third party. This results in copyright concerns, as the there's no indication that the copyright holder has authorized the upload of the material to YouTube - and Wikipedia should neither host nor link to copyvio content. If copyright concerns are disputed, a discussion could be started at WP:RSN or as by starting a WP:RFC on this talk page to establish community consensus. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 21:36, 9 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that Barek. Cheers AntiVan (talk) 22:55, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

Shirley Armstrong
GTA's widow Shirley Hammer Armstrong died October 17, 2014, at the age of 79. Her obituary is listed in several places and she has a memorial page at FindAGrave. SN 29 December 2017

Hurricane Gilbert reference and deletion
I see no red flags to the Hurricane Gilbert reference link using Safari - or Interent Explorer.

The vast majority of all online web activity is by mobile device, using the mobile devices built in Safari, or WiFi.

Previous edits deleting the hurricane ref, demanded a ref citation was required.

Now, the same editor who deleted the reference to the hurricane, has deleted it again, and he added another hoop to jump through, another pre-qualification - the necessity of a secondary source?

An editior "personally" requires a "a different source" to that same sermon.

So, in other words you would be happy to include the reference you blanked, to the Hurricane, if "another link/citation" to the "exact same sermon" is added to the article ref. in which Armstrong talked in great length about being on the island during Gilbert?

I would appreciate a second opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.190.147.122 (talk) 19:48, 11 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I'm now using Safari and WiFi on my iPad and got the same red warning. My other point is that not everything that can be verified belongs in an encyclopaedia. I'd like independent sources showing how this is imply. Doug Weller  talk 20:17, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I see no red flags to the Hurricane Gilbert reference link using Safari - or Interent Explorer. -- I'm sorry, Internet Explorer? The program Microsoft distributes to so users can download a safer browser like Chrome or Firefox and use that instead?  You failing to receive a warning from your browser doesn't mean that the site is safe.  Firefox, Chrome, Sucuri, and Trendmicro all note that the website is not safe.  Those warnings aren't something that Doug was making up and refusing to attempt to look for those warnings for yourself (instead sticking your head in the sand) is an ignorant failure to assume good faith on Doug's part.
 * The vast majority of all online web activity is by mobile device, using the mobile devices built in Safari, or WiFi. No, Safari is second to Chrome for mobile device usage. Safari isn't an operating system either, so no mobile device is built into it.  Sure, Apple includes it with iOS, so if you meant "using the mobile device's built-in Safari," then that would suggest that you think that all mobile devices are iPhones and only iPhones, which is 86.3% wrong.  Whether a device is on wifi, data, or ethernet isn't exactly relevant.  WiFi isn't a browser, so "Safari, or WiFi" makes about as much sense as saying "people drive Fords, or the Interstate."  If you meant "on WiFi," then yeah but it's still not relevant.  In fact, WiFi (especially public WiFi) is actually less secure than mobile data$(Ma Bell has a posse)$ or wired connections, so more people being on WiFi makes it highly irresponsible to link to phishing sites.  Given that your reaction to "this site isn't safe" was to check Internet Explorer and nothing else, it's hard for me to not see you as being lost in a Series of tubes.
 * Also, you're failing to address the issue that an independent, non-primary source is needed to establish that it's noteworthy. No, insinuations about Doug's character or claiming that it's just his personal requirement don't count as addressing that issue.  You being previously ignorant of our site's policies and guidelines doesn't mean that Doug's just making them up.  In fact, a reasonable person would conclude that as Doug is an admin, he certainly knows more about those than users who are just starting out here.  Ian.thomson (talk) 08:41, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

Armstrong and Haggard
Regarding this quote: the linked source is a wordpress blog, and the author appears to cite this Wikipedia entry as the ultimate source for the quote. I do find other sources that remark on Haggard's enjoying Armstrong, and it seems entirely plausible to think he might have said it, but basically all the results I can find for this quote point back to this Wikipedia page. Can anybody track this down? Nblund talk 02:11, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

http://www.startribune.com/1986-interview-it-never-has-been-fun-being-merle-haggard/374804811/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.52.184.45 (talk) 02:17, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't see that quote anywhere in this source. The only mention of Armstrong I can find is here: He can discuss the guitar work of jazzman Howard Roberts, the hereafter or the spellbinding speaking style of Garner Ted Armstrong of the Worldwide Church of God with equal enthusiasm and authority. He is driven, he said, by a desire to play the guitar, to have a total knowledge of the instrument. Nblund talk 02:31, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

right you are. here then:

http://www.isitso.org/guide/wcgresearch.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.52.184.45 (talk) 02:47, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Anddddd we're back where we started. This says: "According the the Wikipedia article on Armstrong". This is circular sourcing. Nblund talk 02:50, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

go back to the original ref source then, as it does not contain any of the issues you mentioned. Also, the name Garner Ted Armstrong is NOT actually trademarked as you complained it was a vio of Wiki use of a trademark. How many articles for titles to books, tv shows and films are actually trademarked names? Does that mean we should begin blanking out entire articles if the title to the article is a trademarked title to a famous book, show or film?

https://meetmythamerica.wordpress.com/2015/05/18/white-washing-the-future/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.52.184.45 (talk) 02:57, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
 * The "trademark" comment was a joke. This is a WordPress website. It's a WP:SELFPUB source, and isn't reliable for much of anything. It actually appears to have copied much of this entry, or this entry was copied from it. Either way, this quote does not appear to be supported by any reliable source, and so it needs to be removed unless you can find something legitimate. Nblund talk 03:01, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

https://www.walliserspage.com/country-music/m-performers/merle-haggard/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.52.184.45 (talk) 03:03, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

New York Times: September 17, 2003. Upon Armstrong’s death, country music artist Merle Haggard related that "after Johnny [Cash] died, I lost a real close friend in Garner Ted Armstrong. He was like a professor to me. What education I have, I owe to him. There was a period where I didn’t even want to watch the news to see who else was gone." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.52.184.45 (talk) 03:07, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
 * This is another personal page, and it appears to be a verbatim copy of the Merle Haggard entry. The New York Times would be an example of reliable source, but you haven't provided any of the information I would need to verify the quote. This obituary matches the date you've referenced. But the quote is not there. This is also not going to work. I'm going to go ahead and remove this quote. If you want to add it back, please take a minute to read over the WP:RS guidelines, which goes over some of the requirements for reliable sourcing on Wikipedia, and then find a good source for the quote.  Nblund talk 03:11, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

https://www.plaintruth.com/the_plain_truth/2016/04/merle-haggard-dies-on-his-birthday-a-brief-bio-that-you-wont-read-anywhere-else.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.52.184.45 (talk) 03:18, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Do we need to start a Doug Weller sock investigation here?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Expresscoffee (talk • contribs)


 * Do you want me to do a WP:Checkuser? :) It appears that you are edit warring signed out.  Doug Weller  talk 11:37, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
 * And please don't copy my talk page posts here. Yes, I asked you io May if you had any relationship with the church after you suggested I had a bias. And you didn't answer. Would you like to now? My bias is against unreliable sources and pov editing. Doug Weller  talk 11:43, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify, the checkuser thing was a joke, I obviously wouldn't an no checkuser would. But you've admitted you are the IP. Doug Weller  talk 11:54, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

I am a 23 year old FEMALE college student in Utah! Stop stalking me, following me from page to page and reverting my edits you creepy old fart!!! I was a new user to Wikipedia and I quit because this old fuck was harassing me from page to page! Doug Weller has made it clear he uses multiple socks. Suspected socks of Doug Weller include Nblund and multiple others as noted above! FYI creepy Doug Weller, I've moved on so go ahead and block "Expresscoffee" — Preceding unsigned comment added by ExpressCoffee (talk • contribs)
 * Didn't you say you'd been forced to use "many nicknames since 2007"? Nblund talk 12:58, 16 August 2019 (UTC)


 * That was poor editing making it hard to realise that it was all a quote from another blocked sockpuppet. However, we did get a clear promise from Expresscoffee that she would return, and she did. Doug Weller  talk 16:57, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

There is plenty of sourced online info to prove without a doubt these two gentlemen were best of friends, including photographs of them onstage together, a youtube duet workin mans name, two books I found detail how Haggard penned his most famous song after hearing a world tomorrow radio program of Garner Ted Armstrong's. One book titled Proud to be an Oakie by Peter LaChapelle, another titled The Running Kind by David Cantwell goes into detail about the song and the Garner Ted Armstrong friendship and inspiration and yet another written by Rachel Lee Rubin. These two lifelong friends lived out the prime of their lives in the decade of the 1970's. Wikipedia author's will not include events if they can't be found in google search, or after the advent of the internet. And most books, old magazine interviews, newspaper articles have never been archived and uploaded to the internet and many are out of publication, so it is if it cant be found online it never happened. The Merle Haggard Johnny Cash Garner Ted Armstrong quote can be found in a People Magazine article from 2003, and several newspapers who picked up the quote reporting on the death of Johnny Cash in 2003. Just because these editors cant find it here in 2003, with their only source of information, the internet google search, doesn't not mean it does not exist in a book, magazine or old newspaper. Another flaw in Wikipedia. If it can't be found online it never happened and therefore cant be included in Wikipedia. Thankful most folks still live outside in the real world instead of here in cyberspace.

Garner Ted Armstrong got his guest starring spot on Hee Haw through his pals Merle Haggard and Buck Owens. To remove the friendship mention so well sourced, and vignette about how Merle Haggard felt about his pal and the education he got from Dr. Armstrong at Ambassador College, was just dead wrong to do.

Also dead wrong to harrass a woman #METOO into quitting your site after she just only joined in May. The bias and sock/meat here had to stem from an agnostic archaeology evolutionist vs the Armstrong christian creationist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.168.93.36 (talk) 16:15, 18 August 2019 (UTC)


 * First of all, we can use material that isn't online if it can be clearly verified. Secondly, you didn't see the venom from her that was revision/deleted, just the foolish accusations of sockpuppetry and her calling me an old fart. The deleted material was far worse and lies. Haggard wrote an autobiography, do you have access to it? By the way she did come back using IP addresses after she was blocked.  Doug Weller  talk 16:56, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
 * The story about Okee from Muskogee being partly inspired by an Armstrong sermon is verifiable. From my perspective: it seems kind of trivial for this entry, but it might be worth including for the entry for Okie from Muskogee (song). I haven't found sourcing to support the quote about Johnny Cash, or the claim that they were lifelong friends. Nblund talk 17:06, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Hidden text moved to talk
The following text was hidden within the article a few years ago.

...

Please review. BD2412 T 00:54, 28 May 2022 (UTC)