Talk:Gary, Indiana/Archive 2

Removed stuff
I have removed a few things in an attempt to fix the tone of this article, also to remove some POV, essentially I am not attempting to create problems by doing this I am attmpting to clean things up below are a few of the things I have removed. I reworded some things, and I may reword a few more of these things for future additition to the article, please take no contempt for anything I have done

In fact many who attended elementary school in Gary -- especially those from Gary's "Miller" (now called the "Miller Beach") section -- can recall having to read a little brown booklet about Gary called "Gary: City on Sand."

The Indiana Dunes National Lakeshore extends several miles into Gary.

''However, to the West of Gary are the urban cities of Whiting, and then the Indiana/Illinois border and the southernmost neighborhood of Chicago itself. From Gary to its West is a continuing, urban metroplex... ending-up right in Chicago proper. In fact, Gary is much closer to downtown Chicago than most people -- even those who live in Chicago -- realize. Many who live and work in Chicago tend to think of Northwest Indiana as being far away and "out in the boonies." They don't realize that it's actually closer from downtown Gary to downtown Chicago (and is a shorter commute thereto) than are many of the Chicago suburbs with which they're more familiar, and which they tend to consider to be more "acceptable" being called Chicago suburbs. The number of people who live in Gary -- especially its Miller (or Miller Beach) section -- but who work in Chicago, is huge. And many of them are familiar with being thought of by Chicagoans as less a member of the community of those who live in what are considered to be the "Chicago suburbs" than are those who live in Illinois to Chicago's South, West and North.''

''So close, in fact, to Chicago is Gary that most of Gary's media -- its TV and radio stations, newspapers, etc. -- tends to be Chicago-based. And standing on any of Gary's beaches, day or night, one can usually see the Chicago skyline to the northwest, which is less than 15 miles away as the crow flies.''

Another indication of Gary's closeness to Chicago (and, in the minds of some, its fundamental disconnectedness from the rest of Indiana) is the fact that Gary (and the rest of Northwest Indiana) is in the Central Time Zone, along with'' Chicago. Most of Indiana is considered to be in the Eastern Time zone.''

For these reasons, and more, it is not uncommon for those from Gary who find themselves in other parts of the United States to just say they are from Chicago.

''but such nosedives in temperature are typically short-lived. Gary's temperatures, generally, are moderated by its proximity to Lake Michigan. As anyone who lives near a large body of water will attest, water has a tendency to keep the warmest temperatures from getting as high, or the lowest temperatures from getting as low, as they do inland. Lake Michigan has that mediating affect on Gary... especially the parts of the city nearest the lake.''

''Another mediating effect of Lake Michigan is that it tends to keep away tornadoes. The typical difference in barometric pressure from the inland areas (where tornadoes are more likely) to the shoreline areas around the lake makes most Northward-heading tornadoes (from Southern inland areas) lift and break-up before they can do any damage to the cities that sit on Lake Michigan's Southern shore. That's not to say that a tornado is impossible in Gary; it's just that they're significantly less likely than is possible only a few miles to the South because of the Lake's mediating affects.''

And because'' of the lake, Gary can also be quite humid... surprisingly so, in fact, considering the fact that it's inland. The old saying, "it's not the heat, it's the humidity" can be a painfully true reality there. Hot summers are often exacerbated by high humidity levels, making them seem even hotter.''

I welcome any readditions of any of these sections if thought necessary though they do need a bit of rewording --MJHankel 01:12, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Abandoned downtown?
A recent visitor explained to me that downtown is full of completely abandoned properties, and that there is one recently improved strip of the downtown retail area that just like almost all of the rest of downtown has no open shops. It seems like rust belt urban decay of this magnitude should be mentioned if at all possible. -- M0llusk 05:37, 16 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The downtown is not completely abandoned. their are a couple blocks of nearly completely abandoned buildings, but they are spread out and caught up in legal tax problems currently. Their are businesses though and their are no completely abandoned areas. --MJHankel 21:40, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed, the downtown is most definitely not completely abandoned. While clearly co-existing with numerous abandoned buildings and businesses, there are still many busy stores, restaurants, gas stations.  I do not agree at all with the depiction and perception of Gary as a ghost town.  With a population of around 100,000, Gary's downtown area is a busy, bustling place, especially in spring and summer.--Bennycat 23:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I live in Gary and work for the Fire Department, fires are way up and so is crime in general(*check the homicide numbers), theres alot less firefighters and cops on the job lately, the city owes the state 11 million. I get soooo tired of people saying Gary isn't that bad when it is!! Rudy Clay is un-doing everything Scott King worked so hard for. Gary usually has 13 firehouses on duty, but thanks to budget cuts we only have 8 of'em operating. I think Bennycat hasn't been to Gary since 1963! Don't believe me? Come to station 4 on Madison anyday, we'll show you the real Gary! And how about those plans for the old Sheraton? No one wants that building! The only question is how long until Rudy is arrested by the FBI like his buddy Harris —Preceding unsigned comment added by Manteno (talk • contribs) 09:17, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I was in Gary last Friday (09/28/07) and I wasn't born yet in 1963! But I take your point about the general hopelessness felt in the city.  I do not live there, and I would therefore not presume to know with the same depth of knowledge as you do about the cold hard reality faced by the residents everyday.  I understand that crime has spiked once again and that once again the city is being deprived of much needed funding due to mismanagement by an at best misguided or at worst corrupted city and county government system.  I think the point I was trying to make was that people are very fond of pointing to Gary as a symbol of negativity, ravaged by crime: a 'dead' city, 'completely abandoned' as one writer above put it.  The small amount of time that I spend in Gary each week coupled with the news reports that I watch and listen to do indeed point to a city with many problems.  BUT, what also shines through is the pride, warmth and hard-working nature of many of the decent residents who love Gary and want to see things get better.  To write the city off as totally hopeless is to completely ignore the valuable and selfless contribution that many ordinary people continue to make in correcting the course of this once beautiful city, police officers and fire fighters among them.--Bennycat 21:29, 1 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Point taken Bennycat. The city isn't totally abandoned and vacant like Chernobyl as some picture it. There are lifelong residents that stay here, mostly because they have no other place to go. I wish I could say it isn't a city to "write off" but we are in the Chicagoland area so that's a given. Scott King made some progress but it's not possible to do anything without being on someones pocket. I would add some photos but Wiki is quick to delete just about any photo for whatever reason.--Manteno (talk 01:05, October 14 2007 (CST)

Gary Indiana on the web
Gary has both its good points and bad. Unfortunately, most of the good points are from the past.

I was born and raised in Gary, and my education was in the Gary public schools. The quality of that education was such that I went on to get an undergraduate, and gradute, degree. I also worked in the steel mills for a few years after high school. I still have family in the area, so I do get back quite often. My 20 + years in the city give me a pretty good perspective of both the "then and now."

In an effort to counter all the negative publicity, without denying its basis in present-day reality, I have put up a web site which features Gary, Indiana. It has a lot of interesting history, of which I am certain most people are totally unaware. For example: Ronald Reagan was married in Lake County.

To gain an insider's perspective of Gary, Indiana, check out this web site

Dave's Den

D. Yaros 76.229.218.233 (talk) 08:46, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Notable people - where did they all get moved to?
I must have been asleep when a huge change was made with many of the US cities' articles: the whole of the notable people list got removed for good! However, I can't see any link on this article site where I should get pointed to the list of notable people. (I actually came here whether the singer Kellee Patterson is already listed) I must say the older version was better - have the NP list with the article that corresponds to a particular city and not spread around somewhere. I'd by dying to know which lunatic had had that idea first. [edit]it was WhisperToMe who did that with absolutely no discussion first whatsoever; and as far as I could see, he wreaked havoc by removing these kind of lists in lots places on WP. That almost shouts for a complaint. -andy 92.229.66.1 (talk) 14:29, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi! There was no need for discussion before the removal. Here is why:
 * As per WP:BLP we cannot have unsourced information about living people. I understand that these lists have some dead people too, but you and others need to work on sourcing. Get sources for each and every name, or otherwise the unsourced entries will go. It is the responsibility of the person who wishes to add or restore material to source stuff. The person who removes stuff has no such responsibility.
 * So what to do? You need to go on news.google.com and find a source for each and every person you want to add to the list. Fully cite each newspaper article (name of author, name of article, publication, date, etc.)
 * Information must be verifiable before posting. WhisperToMe (talk) 17:17, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * In a nutshell, that's just silly. Briefly, you just HAVE NO RIGHT to remove several years' work of others. Although these lists do not look like it, they have been worked on for many years. And just in 2009 a young whippersnapper like you comes along and tells the "elders" how rules are in WP? Who do you think you are young man? -andy 92.229.66.1 (talk) 18:10, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * See Wikipedia_talk:Biographies_of_living_persons and your own talk page. I think WP:V and WP:BLP is very clear. WhisperToMe (talk) 19:36, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * That's a gross misstatement of policy, and a very bad idea. I'll take a look on the policy page where that is being discussed.Wikidemon (talk) 23:17, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The outcome of the discussion is very clear: it's not a "gross misstatement of policy" - it's clearly an urgent issue that needs to be addressed. These lists need more scrutiny, not less. WhisperToMe (talk) 12:02, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Music Man
There is a whole song about Gary, Indiana in The Music Man. Should this be mentioned in this article or not? 72.92.221.236 (talk) 15:18, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Potentially libelous material
What do people think of this statement within the 'Recent History' segment of the article -

"On April 4, 2006, local officials chose former Lake County Commissioner and King rival Rudolph Clay to fill the remaining 21 months of King's term,in which he had spend attempting to destroy the city's public safety sector to fulfill an accused racist agenda"

I have added a citation needed tag to the statement. The writer has provided a source: a complaint document showing that the City of Gary is being sued regarding allegedly racist hiring practices, but I find no mention of Rudolph Clay within the complaint. Personally I feel that the statement should be removed until the writer is able to provide sources that show that Rudolph Clay personally has been attempting to destroy the city's public safety sector to fulfill an accused racist agenda.67.167.110.28 (talk) 22:00, 22 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree, the statement should be removed immediately and then reinstated only if adequately sourced. 81.141.232.14 (talk) 12:20, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Famous residents?
I'm surprised that this article doesn't mention prominent individuals who have lived in Gary. For example, Nobel Prize-winning economists Paul A. Samuelson and Joseph Stiglitz were both born there. This seems like something the article should include. Hopefully someone with more such information can add a section for such information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.144.201.12 (talk) 03:57, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

"Liberal" Gary
I'm familiar with the "study" that named Gary the second-most liberal city in the U.S., but all this really means is it's majority-black, and blacks vote Democrat. It's really kind of a non-statement, at best.

I don't know a lot about Gary, but I know enough that calling it the 2nd-most liberal city in the country is misleading, and at the very least doesn't belong in the introduction. I'll leave it to someone more familiar with the city to decide what does. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.243.194.90 (talk) 02:35, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I second, that the statement doesn't belong in the introduction. Seems it was placed as more of a jab at the ideology than being a noteworthy opener. Also worth noting: the source is five years old.--Pretendo (talk) 01:38, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Robert Kearns
I think Robert Kearns should be added to the Notable people section. Crazy Blue Eyes (talk) 08:17, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

2010 census
The 2010 census figures are out. Gary has lost a significant amount of population and is now about 80k according to press reports. TMLutas (talk) 23:36, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

As per census document cb11cn26_in_2010redistr.xls Gary city population : 80294 change : -22452 % change : - 21.9% TMLutas (talk) 01:56, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

New article to rename/merge
Editors may want to have a look at Gary-Hammond-East Chicago, IN MSA. Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:42, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Miller
Like it or not, Miller is a part of Gary... so it would border, not Gary, but the rest of the City of Gary... Xenophon777 (talk) 19:42, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Miller was it's own city at one point, then was annexed by Gary. Miller is mostly white, unlike the rest of Gary. Miller lacks the crime and gangs that plague the rest of Gary. I've seen people walking down Lake Street at 9:30 at night, something you can't really do in Downtown Gary.

So like it or not, Miller is about as far away from Gary as you can get in Gary, and it deserves it's own article. Especially if the plans on de-annexation go through. 71.115.18.52 (talk) (adding sig) 20:44, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Why not an article within the Gary article? Why the duplication? Xenophon777 (talk) 12:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Correction, Miller and Miller Beach are not predominately white. Gary doesn't have a section in the city where the white population is the majority and the majority of white people in Gary live in the Glen Park section of the city. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.236.128.21 (talk) 19:00, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Not much activity here
I have edited a bit on this page today and was somewhat surprised to see no activity at all on the talk page here for several years. There are many many reference issues on this page. A professor at IUN in the 1970's (Lane, I believe) wrote a pretty good history of the whole Calumet area. Unfortunately I live in a small town out west now and do not have access to it. Can someone closer to home possibly help me clean this page up? It seems pretty far off NPOV with a slant towards the general attitude that Gary sucks. I realize that it isn't the best place in the world; indeed, I chose to leave for better places just as soon as I was old enough. But the slant of this article seems to be a bit racial and a lot of the unreferenced material is just plain wrong.

On another subject, does a person belong on the Notable natives and residents list simply because they were born in Gary? Back in the 1950s and 60s Gary had the only hospitals in the area. Everyone from Merrillville and Hobart born before 1972 just about were born in Gary. I remember seeing a discussion of that somewhere, but I don't remember what the consensus was.Gtwfan52 (talk) 07:53, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree that there are a lot of reference issues in the article. If there is a racial slant, then this is very possibly because almost half of Gary's history is tied to changes in racial makeup and corresponding social issues. As for the notable residents section, I agree that someone simply born in Gary doesn't necessarily qualify as much as someone who resided there and was part of the community. I guess this is part of the landscape of Lake county, with its numerous complex annexations and dramatic shifts in population from one city to another.

I do have some books on Gary and the Calumet region and would be more than happy to help improve the article. Maybe we can get a to do list going and try and develop a consensus over what we'd like to see included. Bennycat (talk) 05:17, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi, Benny! That would be great!  The book I mentioned on Lane would be one important book.  US Steel also published a book at the city's 50th anniversary in 1959 (I think) that had a bunch of great information on the city, esp on the supervisor's housing area along Buchanan near 5th and the history of the YMCA.


 * I believe I already took care of the problem about the place of birth/hometown question. It arose over the Kutchenberg brothers, who were certainly born in Gary, as I was, but equally certainly grew up (and played football) in Hobart.  Anyway, thanks for the reply, and just bump me on my talk if there is anything I can do for you.Gtwfan52 (talk) 06:49, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Smell
My edit has been reverted twice now as vandalism, so I thought I should bring up this issue on the talk page. One thing Gary is well known for is its smell. As a result of the steel industry, a sulfur smell has long been a part of Gary, although efforts have been made to improve it. I referenced an article from E: The Environmental Magazine which seems to have mysteriously disappeared, entitled Cities that smell: some urban centers use common scents which states that "Most people remember Gary because they drove through it on the interstate during a family vacation, holding their noses with the windows rolled up tight to keep out the rotten-egg smell" (Google Cache) Lemnar (talk) 19:14, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

As a frequent visitor to Gary, spending most of my time in relatively close proximity to the lakeshore and steel plant, I would say that on approximately 10% of my visits do I notice a weak to moderately-weak sulphur smell. I have very, very seldom noticed this smell whilst driving by or close to Gary on the interstate. It should also be remembered that there is more than one steel producing plant on the south shore, and it is entirely possible that those who have traveled through the area are remembering the smell of the combined output from the steel plants of Burns Harbor, East Chicago and Gary. Although the smell is undeniably there at times (dependent on the wind), to lay the blame solely at Gary's door in this article, citing the evidence you have chosen, is not really fair. Having some vague rememberance of driving through northwest Indiana at 70mph on the interstate, during a family vacation possibly from a previous decade, is not the same as visiting and getting to know Gary personally, including the quality of its air. I also think the quote used is very POV and rather inflammatory, to suggest that the only thing that Gary should be remembered for is its disgusting smell. However, for all that, it's great to see something new being discussed about Gary on this page! Bennycat (talk) 22:18, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Why not just mention the smell in the history section for example: "A reminder of Gary's steel making is the smell of sulfer in some areas". Geo8rge (talk) 09:36, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * As someone who spent the first 18 years of their life there, I can tell you the smell is much better than it used to be. Also, it was always my perception that the worst smells came from the refineries in Whiting and Hammond, not from the US Steel mills (the exception being when they were quenching a load of coke.  That REEKED!) Gtwfan52 (talk) 06:58, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Climate
There are some missing data for Celsius (centigrade) temperatures in the climate section. As most of the world, outside the US cannot understand Fahrenheit, it will be easier to understand to have Celsius underneath the Fahrenheit temperature. Adding the Celsius temperatures too, the winter months will get their color to indicate somewhat easier what temperature it is (in average) in a month. OPolkruikenz

I fixed it and added it extremes and snowfall data from a better source. The problem was that the weatherbox included the Celsius temperatures along with the imperial units. That is why the temperatures only displayed the imperial units only. I removed them because it automatically converts the temperatures in Fahrenheit to the ones in Celsius below. The climate box will show both of these values along withh the colours in the winter months.Ssbbplayer (talk) 20:27, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Archiving
If no-one objects, I will be archiving everything above the section titled "Climate" above in a few days. Most of what is on this page now is stale and somewhat distracting form the purpose of an article talk page, which is to facilitate the improvement of the article. Gtwfan52 (talk) 07:58, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Photographs
As a frequent visitor of Gary, I am aware of the many delapidated and crumbling buildings in the city. It is important to highlight the sense of abandonment in Gary through photographs because clearly this has a great deal of factual basis. The photographs are indeed a welcome addition to the article. However, I feel that to solely focus on these buildings within the Photograph section of the article is not entirely representative of a city that is clearly beginning to turn a corner and has many new construction projects completed or under way. Photos of these projects would supplement and support the comments regarding new construction mentioned earlier in the article.

I understand that changing this aspect of the article would require someone to submit new photos. If anyone is willing to source photos of newer buildings in Gary, I would suggest perhaps beginning with a better picture of the new baseball park and perhaps the Post Tribune building on Broadway. Failing anyone taking up the task, being very new to Wikipedia, given some time, I may be able to learn how to do this appropriately--Bennycat 23:28, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * As someone who has been through a small amount of Gary, I think that there should be at least one picture of abandoned housing. One should be enough to keep the article balanced. Several pictures are available at this user's contributions. Royal broil  18:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * As someone who grew up in Gary, I have to ask if you plan to conversely to add a picture of abandoned housing in other rust belt cities to their pages "for balance", or if your plan is just to point to Gary that way. --Mhking 18:45, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Depends how badly they need it. Gary needs it more than most. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.78.101.205 (talk) 09:36, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

White flight\black scare
It would seem to me, quite important to talk about the turn of the century and how migrating workers fleeing southern tyrrany scared off the native whit xenophobic population. Granted, this is a touchy subject, but it paints the begining of gary's history, and the vestiges of white flight survive to this day. Maybe something could be said to the nature of "the established population of white women and men fled the area basically gutting the infrastructure of what is today modern gary, leaving black migrants from the south to start anew in a region which is classicly not afforded the same fundings and oppurtunities as the rest of indiana. Additionally, endemic racism has aggravated the situation." maybe with less POV but my point remains. Anybody have good knowledge of dates and facts during the period between 1910-1940? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.189.40.225 (talk) 11:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Xenophobic means fear of foreigners, not quite the right word for this problem. And the Gary influx in the '60's had a high proportion of welfare cases and criminals, unlike the early 20th century migrants from the South who were mostly decent, hard-working people who would have been an asset to any community not blinded by racial prejudice. What is not made clear in this article is whether the 'white flight' occurred before or after the '60's influx. I have the impression that the crumbling economy caused people to leave, looking for new work, leaving the half-empty city to become a dumping ground for problem cases from the inner city, as this has been the pattern in other areas whose job base has collapsed; however, this has to be properly sourced before adding it to the article. -Born in Gary 50.78.101.205 (talk) 09:51, 5 January 2014 (UTC)


 * This is a highly complex issue, but I agree that this article is a worthy candidate to explore the 'white flight' concept. The 'white flight' witnessed in Gary was really a consequence of the decline in employment opportunities due to modernization in the steel industry, an aspect that has been adequately dealt with in the article.  However, for a city that remains about 85% African American it might be worthwhile to more closely identify the key causes of this anomaly.  One possible idea: Whites were able to seek employment opportunities in neighboring towns that at the time in question may not have been so readily available to the African-American citizens of Gary, due largely to the racist prejudices that existed in that period.  As an Indiana resident, I'm not sure the evidence supports the statement regarding the 'region' not being afforded the same funding opportunities as the rest of the state.  There are many highscale neighborhoods in towns that surround Gary within the same county.  Although a highly political issue, it would be interesting to explore the causes of poverty in Gary and the causes of wealth in cities in close proximity.  It is also worthwhile bearing in mind that there are many other pockets of poverty in Indiana, probably more in rural areas than urban. --Bennycat 23:39, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Also, if you look at the article for Miller, it talks about how local citizens groups managed a transition to a majority black community without causing 'white flight'. Some of these insights could be added to the Gary article, and discuss why Gary had a different result. 50.78.101.205 (talk) 19:39, 5 January 2014 (UTC)


 * This issue is not unique to Gary, and as such, the question that comes up is why the article for Gary to discuss that. Why not East St. Louis, or Detroit, or Benton Harbor, or Cleveland or Newark? --Mhking 18:48, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * You're absolutely right, this issue is in no way unique to Gary. What is rather unique about Gary is the extremely high percentage of African-Americans (around 85% of the population) living in a city of it's size (about 100,000).  However, I do take your point about the other cities.  In particular I think that the polarized demographics of St Joseph and Benton Harbor would also make an interesting study.  I guess it's up to a much more qualified editor than me to decide on whether to expand the Gary, Indiana article out to include this issue.--Bennycat 21:29, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

And anyway, the article is for discussing Gary, whether or not other areas have similar issues. Why not talk about the issues in those other places? Because we are talking about Gary, and Gary has those issues. Others might draw on the info provided to do a cross-city study, if they want to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.28.140.201 (talk) 23:43, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Insensitive Names of Population Groups?
I added data from the 1920 and 1930 U.S. Censuses to create a paragraph about Gary's rapid population growth and ethnic diversity in the early 20th century. I used the terms "foreign-born", "native-born", and "Negro" simply because those are the terms used in the Censuses of the time. No offense is intended. TimDH76 (talk) 12:28, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Interestingly there was a piece on NPR during the time of the last census in 2010 regarding the fact that "Negro" was still an option when describing ones ethnicity. The explanation was that some older African Americans are quite content with the term, although it has generally fallen out of favor with the population at large, and so will no longer be an option going forward.Bennycat (talk) 03:56, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Fire Department
Does anyone besides me think that the amount of real estate in this article occupied by info on the fire department is a bit ridiculous? There are ten whole words on the police department, and there is a potential to talk about something meaningful there with the sheriff being assigned to assist with law enforcement sometime back.

I have seen this in other city articles. All the minutia on the fire department does nothing to inform the reader about the city. It only exists for a very small portion of readers who are fire buffs. Every city has a fire department! The section here asserts nothing unusual or special about Gary's fire department. The article would not suffer (IMHO) if the section were removed completely. I already removed the stupid bit about the fire department providing fire protection "24/7, 365", which I have also seen in other city articles. Is that to imply that the East Chicago Fire Department won't come out and put out the fire in your kitchen between 1:15 and 2:02pm on Tuesdays? Does Michigan City FD take a week off in the summer?

There was a very significant fire in Gary a few years back. The section on the fire department does not mention it at all. There is nothing about any fire fighters ever dying in the line of duty. These things would be potentially interesting. What house what engine is in, not so much. The addresses of other city services are not listed. Why should the firehouses' be given? The answer is they shouldn't. I think that lacking anyone with motivation to write interesting and pertinent information on the GFD, the section should be reduced to "Gary is served by a professional full time fire department with (x number of) fire stations.", referenced to the same reference that is in the article now. Gtwfan52 (talk) 07:45, 7 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I believe the reason for the lack of detail on the Gary PD in this article, is that it has its own article here, which used to be a great deal more extensive, although exceptionally POV and unsourced, and so was consequently edited down to a single section. Bennycat (talk) 04:01, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Broadway vs Broadway Avenue
The main north-south street through downtown Gary is simply called "Broadway" and not "Broadway Avenue". However, simply mentioning "Broadway" might be confusing to readers who are unfamiliar with the area. Therefore, in this article's first mention of Broadway, I included a descriptor of it as the main north-south street in the city. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TimDH76 (talk • contribs) 14:21, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Recently traffic lights and street signs were updated in Merrillville, along US 30. I noticed at the Broadway intersection, the sign now says "Broadway Avenue", which I believe is the correct historical name for the street, though you're right that people don't refer to it as "Avenue" in written form. just "Broadway". Not sure if the same change has happened in Gary. I'll have to check out when I'm next there. Bennycat (talk) 03:47, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
 * It really doesn't matter what the signs say in Merrillville, as this article is on Gary. However, I find it dubious at best that it was ever Broadway avenue in Gary, as all the avenues are east-west roads and all the other north-south roads are streets. John from Idegon (talk) 05:12, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I believe that Gary has at least partially updated some of its street signs, so I will take a look when I'm there next. You're right that it doesn't matter what the Town of Merrillville calls the road, although I would point out that it is the same road, much like Indianapolis Blvd, or Calumet Avenue that runs north-south through different municipalities. I believe that I am correct that officially, the road is known as Broadway Avenue, though the Avenue part fell out of favor, maybe for the reasons you cite? I'm trying to find an historical reference, or plat map that would clear up the point. Bennycat (talk) 14:41, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Murder capital of the US?
Nowhere in the article is there mention of Gary's reputation for having the highest murders per capita in the United States. Just because it is unpleasant does not mean we need to disclude it.

As mentioned in previous talk pages, a graph to show the lowering murder rates would be useful, but simply discluding one of the things Gary is known for would be akin to lying. Simply adding a line in the History section to this effect would be enough.

Aparently, Washington Dc is now the murder capital of the US, but Gary is still high in its category. Statistics available here: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/01cius.htm SailorSpork 23:06, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Gary has not been the capitol by definition for a number of years now, having been passed in different years by Newark, Detroit, New Orleans and Washington, DC, among other places. Gary's prior multiple-year run has seemingly stuck in the minds of many. --Mhking 23:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * According to CNN Gary had the second highest murder rate in the coutnry in 2006. http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/28/murder.board.nola/index.html If the reputation is no longer deserved it is worth noting that while it is no longer the "murder capital" of the country people's perceptions have not changed. -Liz —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.250.34.161 (talk) 14:53, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

well gary won 2009, second year in a row. - 220.239.227.105 (talk) 03:04, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

The article should mention Gary's very high crime rate; it is certainly a relevant aspect of the city. Jim Michael (talk) 10:59, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Also, it used to be quite law abiding. Could the article say when the change took place, and link to some studies suggesting why that might be the case?50.78.101.205 (talk) 09:33, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

There is a definite absence of information in this article regarding Gary Indiana's crime rates. Chicago, IL for example, has its own section for its laws and crime. An NPOV addition to this article regarding such is certainly needed. -Robtalk 07:42, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi, . First, Chicago is over 10 times the size of Gary, and the much larger article on it logically has additional content. Second, since your post here today is the first activity on this 8 year old thread in a year and a half, it doesn't appear many people share your sentiments. Last, when you see something that appears to be lacking in a Wikipedia article, just do the research and fix it. Every one who edits Wikipedia gets paid the exact same thing you do. Not really fair for you to expect someone else to use their time to add something you want, is it? John from Idegon (talk) 14:23, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Regardless of Gary, Indiana's size in relation to Chicago, IL (which I merely used as an example of how the crime rate information could could be represented in this article)... it is ranked well within the top 5 murder capitals in the United States. I merely added my opinion (that the article should indeed contain the aforementioned information about its murder rate) to the appropriate section on the article's talk page. I would also prefer to join existing discussions on article talk pages (in order to determine what the consensus is on a particular matter) prior to altering articles, since it avoids a lot of edit and revert wars, especially when some users may become defensive about any factual information that can be viewed negatively. I also, never stated I was unwilling to alter the article myself, I simply have yet to reach a conclusion about whether or not I will be doing so.-Robtalk 00:24, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Gary, Indiana. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120503110536/http://nwitimes.com/articles/2006/03/24/news/top_news/f4aea824216a2eb98625713b0002c76f.txt to http://nwitimes.com/articles/2006/03/24/news/top_news/f4aea824216a2eb98625713b0002c76f.txt
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20130918232359/http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2009/may/01/entertainment/chi-talk-nightmare-follomay01 to http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2009/may/01/entertainment/chi-talk-nightmare-follomay01

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documentaries and film festival to add to arts/film section
The Gary International Film Festival just hosted its fourth festival. In addition, there are a number of documentaries that focus on Gary and would help build the notability of this section. User:John_from_Idegon wanted me to bring it to the Talk Page first. John--or others--can you say more about what you'd like to see in addition to a list? Would you prefer it in bullet form until others can add more info about each documentary? The current mention of the History Channel documentary doesn't seem to do much by way of establishing relevance. Here's the material I wanted to add. Aschuet1 (talk) 17:50, 21 October 2015 (UTC)


 * In 2011, Karen Toering founded the annual Gary International Black Film Festival. It's mission is to use "film as a catalyst for positive cultural activity to enhance the ‘cultural capital’ of our hometown of Gary, IN by celebrating black culture through independent film and discussion."


 * Several documentaries have been made about Gary, including the History Channel's Life After People, ABC's “The Great Divide” from its mini-series In Search of America with Peter Jennings, John Hmurovic's The Magic City of Steel: A History of Gary, Indiana, Blandine Huk and Frédéric Cousseau's My Name is Gary, Alex Semchuck's Stagnant Hope, and Sandra Barnes's Gary, Indiana: A Tale of Two Cities.


 * I removed the material for two reasons. The film festival is self-sourced. I would not oppose its inclusion if you can provide reliable, independent sources, preferably from a national or out of town publication. I reverted the list of films because generally, we do not include lists of anything that do not meet Wikipedia's somewhat unique definition of notable. The majority of the films were weakly referenced also (imdb.com, the film's distributor). That being said, perhaps some use of some of the films may be to reference some editorial content based on their content. John from Idegon (talk) 03:43, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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