Talk:Gary Gygax/Archive 1

Legendary Adventure Online
Is Legendary Adventure Online dead? The article makes it sound like it is, but I found the website and it appears to be active. Can someone confirm if it was killed? If so/not, we should clarify the wording in the article. &mdash;Frecklefoot 15:58, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Inline extern links dispute
My esteemed colleague, Gracefool prefers inline extern links. That is, links to external sites within the article rather than using the links as cites or footnotes (See this edit). However, the Manual of Style discourages this practice and gives some advice on how to avoid their use. I'm not changing Gracefool's edit, I just wanted to note my position and his in case it comes up again. &mdash; Frecklefoot | Talk 14:30, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

Overkill?
Can someone let me know if the "Job Titles" section is overkill or relative information? --Kim Nevelsteen 23:30, 15 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't know, I think it's mildly interesting. It could be formatted a whole lot better, however.   &mdash; Frecklefoot | Talk 14:43, August 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * Ok, I am first going to get all the bio info up there and it cited before I worry too much about formatting. Thanks. --Kim Nevelsteen 15:20, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Gygax and Tolkien
I started writing a summary of why Tolkien was an appropriate entry as an influence upon Gygax, but upon double checking I notice that the sentence in question says, "For the spell systems, Gygax would be inspired by...." Indeed, there is little to no evidence that D&amp;D spell systems were influenced by Tolkien and a great deal of evidence that the spell systems were influenced by other fantasy writers.

That said, it may be worth noting that Tolkien pretty clearly influenced D&amp;D in a number of ways. Most visably, the initial printing of D&amp;D included both hobbits and ents. The hobbits and ents in D&amp;D are extremely similar to Tolkien's version of them. Tolkien's work was at the time very popular among fantasy fans (which Gygax clearly is, given his other influences). Tolkien was clearly the first to define hobbits and may have coined the term (The Wikipedia entry on hobbit gives some good details). Given all of this, it's likely that Gygax was influenced by Tolkien, just not in the spell system area. (For those unfamiliar, D&amp;D quickly renamed hobbits to halflings because the Tolkien estate holds the trademark to the word after Tolkien named the original book The Hobbit. Ents were renamed treants, but I have no idea why.  There is, to my knowledge, no trademark and you cannot copyright a single word.)

Alan De Smet | Talk 21:50, 19 September 2005 (UTC)


 * There is a difference between having someone influence your work and entering creatures and tales into your work as a tribute to another author. --None-of-the-Above 07:28, 10 October 2005 (UTC)


 * One or two entries may be considered a mere 'tribute', but the thematic influence that the work of Tolkien has obviously had on the D&D world is far more then that. When an important portion of a work is such a 'tribute,' that is great influence indeed. 24.47.151.201 (talk) 06:56, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Biography assessment rating comment
WikiProject Biography Assessment Drive

This article is narrowly a B-rating as it needs an infobox, but is otherwise comprehensive.

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 07:46, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

The following is a bit of vandalism left by an unknown author, and not Yamara. Manning (talk) 01:47, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * This article causes brain cancer. Whoever wrote it needs to take a few writing classes. If I cared enough about the subject I would do it myself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.118.32.48 (talk • contribs) 23:58, March 1, 2008

The Name
Gygax apparently means GIANT AXE, Gyg being norse for giant, and Ax being norse for axe.

Harald Potter —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.245.176.93 (talk) 21:14, 13 March 2007 (UTC).

Gore and Gygax reversion
Regarding this reversion by K.Nevelsteen of Grazon's change. Probably the right thing to do; it wasn't well sourced and was very confusing. That said, the "his appearence when, where, in what media?" is easy: the Futurama episode cited directly above. Both Gygax and Gore lent their voices to that episode. Gore is present at the end of the episode when Gygax starts a D&D game. He says something to the effect, "I'm a 13th level vice-president."

More questionable is Grazon's claim that "Gore's wife hates D&D." That's news to me, but some quick searching does suggest it might be true. this link claims to be an excerpt from her book in which she links D&D to satanism. The core idea: that there is an interesting coincidence between Al Gore acting with Gygax versus Tipper Gore disliking D&D may be worth researching. The sentence may belong is a better phrased and more strongly researched form. I'll see what I can dig up (but don't let me stop someone else from fixing it first).


 * I have a problem with the sentence because it is weakly formulated and not backed up. The claim itself is not a problem. --None-of-the-Above 07:28, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

But wouldn't "backing it up" constiute "original research" and also invalidate it for the purpose of the article? Just wondering... 77.177.187.50 16:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Regarding June 2007 reversion
June 23rd, a user removed the comment about Gore appearing with Gygax on Futurama, saying Tipper Gore has never publicly criticized D&D.

Reason Magazine attributes the following quote to Tipper Gore: According to Mrs. Pat Pulling, founder of the organization Bothered About Dungeons and Dragons, the game has been linked to nearly fifty teenage suicides and homicides.  The Escapist says she spoke out against D&D using Patricia Pulling as a source, but also suggests the book may have been ghost-written, and the comments made might not even be hers (speculation). Urban dot net contains an excerpt from the book, in which D&D is described as one of many occult fads (along with The Exorcist), and again mentions Patricia Pulling.

Point being, she has been publicly critical of D&D. That said, the criticism sounds rather weak. From the context in which it appears in the book, it sounds as though it's little more than a footnote among a number of items she was criticizing as being occult influences upon our society. While an interesting piece of trivia, I'm not convinced it's vital to the article (and we're supposed to be trimming trivia anyway, per WP:TRIVIA). -FeralDruid 05:09, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Other Gygax's?
The Lost City of Gaxmoor (ISBN 1-931275-07-6) is listed as by by Ernie and Luke Gygax. I have a suspicion Ernie is one of his sons rather than another name for E Gary Gygax, but who is Luke? another son or grandson from Gygax first marriage? It would be good if someone had the info to adde this to the biography.
 * Do you want his entire family listed? Yes, Luke is his son. And there is an Ernest Jr. Indeed as well. --None-of-the-Above 09:19, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
 * List entire family? Well yes. Biographical information usually includes references to at least immediate family. I also think it is very noteable that 2 of his children have been involved in the RPG industry that E Gary Gygax basically started. -Waza 21:38, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I have the info. I will see that I can add it in an appropriate place. Did you want to know about his grandchildren as well? =) He's got lots of grandkids. --None-of-the-Above 07:28, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I think a brief listing of his kids, and possible which mother they go with would be appropriate, though I don't know about his grandkids. Perhaps the best place would be in the Biography area, under a new sub-section called Family...?--Azathar 17:49, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Any of Gary's family who has their own Wikipedia entry for their own actions deserves a link. Anyone who Gary is noteworty for influencing (or being influenced by) deserves a link.  Thus, if a divorce was a big impact in Gary's life and decisions, that wife's name probably belongs.  If his kids are in the industry, it seems likely that he influenced that decision and they deserve a brief mention.  Beyond that I'd keep it general, "Gary Gygax has been married X times and sired Y children."  Grandchildren is probably far enough from Gygax that in general I wouldn't bother any mention at all, unless one of the other cases above applies.  By way of example, I don't want John F. Kennedy's entry to list his enter family tree, but a lot of Kennedy's before and after have been involved in politics and probably deserve brief mentions in John's entry. Alan De Smet | Talk 22:50, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Good luck figuring out Gary's ex-wife's name. When I asked him, "What is your ex-wife's name?" He simply replied, "My ex-wife". Usually his kids have authored something here or there, but I don't think it is mainstream yet. --None-of-the-Above 06:31, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

According to this article he has daughters named Heidi, Cindy and Lisa and his ex-wife's name was Mary Jo -- DizietSma 03:24, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Children added. --None-of-the-Above 07:23, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Page says, "Gygax is the son of Martin Gygax and an American mother." Did his mom have a name? Is it that we just don't know it? This really oddly worded. CsikosLo 14:48, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Fixed. &mdash; Frecklefσσt | Talk 15:17, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

This article has a large amount of personal info about him and his family. Ron Bes (talk) 14:43, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

On linking "TSR" name variations
Just a heads up for anyone links variations on the name TSR: The Wikipedia page is TSR, Inc.. That page includes a very complete discussion of previous names (notably "Tactical Studies Rules" and "TSR Hobbies, Inc"), so linking the previous names is unnecessary. I rewrote the ones I found to link directly to TSR, Inc. while keeping the text of the name. Alan De Smet | Talk 15:27, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Gary's "a million and a half in debt" quote
User:131.216.163.92 changed "a million and a half in debt" to "$15 million". While I think the correct number if $15M, the text in question is part of a quotation directly from Gygax's mouth at, thus it shouldn't be changed. Given that it was transcribed as "a million and a half" and not "1.5 million" (a much more plausible typo), I believe that the transcription was accurate. Alan De Smet | Talk 20:46, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * it is NOT part of the original quote. It is garbage introduced by a previous edit. I checked the reference that *I* submitted to double check. So there shouldn't be a 15 or 1.5 unless there is a source along with it. --None-of-the-Above 19:21, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Unsourced paragraph
I am removing the following paragraph because it is completely unsourced. If it can be sourced, then I would be glad to accept it as an edit. It was changed on revision --None-of-the-Above 19:24, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

It was through the IFW that Gygax met Don and Julie Lowry, who owned and operated a mail-order business selling products of interest to wargamers and other military hobbyists. The Lowrys had booths to sell products at some of the early GenCons. They also had their own press with which they printed their catalogs, and they took over Panzerfaust, a wargaming magazine, from Don Greenwood when the latter went to work for Avalon Hill. Gygax was the "miniatures editor" for Panzerfaust (later renamed Campaign) and convinced them to publish rulebooks for miniatures gaming in various epocs, beginning with Chainmail in 1971. This line carried the name Guidon Games. Gygax also designed two board games for Guidon Games: Dunkirk and Alexander the Great; the rights to the latter were later bought by Avalon Hill. In 1973 Gygax refered the designer of the board game Dungeon to Don Lowry, then in Maine, who admired the game but knew that he did not have the resources to do it justice. Gygax mentioned, in a phone discussion of Dungeon, that he also had a game with a similar flavor, called Dungeons & Dragons, which would not involve the production costs of Dungeon, but which would require one "player" to design "dungeons" that the other players could send their characters through, while the designer of the dungeon revealed information only as the players' characters would access it. Based on this description, Lowry decided that there would be little market for such a game, as it required too much work on the part of the dungeon designers, while the other players would have all the fun.

Is Gary a Jehovah's Witness?
A recent edit added Gary to Category:Jehovah's Witnesses people. 1. Is it true? I can find one citation:  which claims "The truth is that the co-authors of the original D&D game were Gary Gygax and David Arneson, who are Jehovah's Witness and Born-Again Christian, respectively." I'd be happier if I could find at least one more citation. 2. Is it relevant? As far as I know Gary has not made this a significant part of his public life. I'd expect the category to be people who were major parts of the faith or had made it a significant part of their public life. (Otherwise, for example, I'd expect Category:Christian people to be a list thousands of entries long.) 3. Why isn't in the article proper? If it is true and relevant, it should probably be in the biography proper ("Gary Gygax is a Jehovah's Witness."), not hidden in the category listings at the bottom. Alan De Smet | Talk 23:09, 20 July 2006 (UTC) Gary Gygax was indeed a Jehovah's witness. It came up in conversations with me on a few occasions when we played wargames together at his house in Lake Geneva, or mine, in Chicago.^^^^ (RAC)
 * I am doubtful of this inclusion as well.--Esprit15d 14:48, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Given that no one spoke up in defense of the inclusion, I've pulled it for the reasons above. If anyone disagrees, please let us know what your reasoning is. Alan De Smet | Talk 03:58, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Not that this is citeable (sp?), he is a Jehovah's Witness, at least that is what he told me (and some others)at a Con in Portsmouth, NH, where I met him a few years back, and was able to play in a game he was DM'ing. I was a bit surprised about it, but he doesn't appear to be strict about it.--Azathar 15:18, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Being a member of Gary's talk list, there was an interesting discussion of religion a while back. I'm not exactly sure if Gary's a formal member of any Watchtower society, and he did not specifically identify himself as a member of that faith, but he does follow a lot of the tenants of their beliefs.  For instance, he believes in Annihilationism instead of Hell, uses Jehovah as the term to describe "God the Father", is not a Trinitarian, etc.  If I remember correctly, he had mentioned as a youngster being raised as a Seventh-day Adventist, although I could be mistaken (my e-mail archives are a bit on the fritz right now).  There was an interesting debate between him and Christopher Spiller, a devout Catholic, on several of these subjects.  JRT 01:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Non Gaming Information
I'd be interested in seeing some non gaming info on Gary, such as did he go to college, if so, where, when and what did he study? What did he do professionally before writing games? Pdarley 21:35, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

"Gygax is the creator of many fantastic personages and beings..."
I'm deleting the following text: "Gygax is the creator of many fantastic personages and beings who now appear outside of the D&D game such as drow (as they exist in fantsy literature and art), gnolls, Mordenkainen, Eclavdra, Grazz't, among others." Individually I don't think the examples are valid. Dark elves existed in fantasy literature pre-D&D; all Gygax did was put his own spin on them. Perhaps his spin was significantly influenced later works, but if that's the case you'll need to provide a citation. The same goes for gnolls, the pieces (name and imagry) predate Gygax. If his particular take has had an impact, we'll need citations. As for the other three, those are more clearly original works. However, what significant impact have they had outside of D&D? Again, citations are needed. — Alan De Smet | Talk 19:29, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I've been thinking on this for a few hours, how Gygax influenced aspects of the world. It could be easily said that he started modern gaming; Chainmail & D&D are in the background of every role playing game; some of the first Computer games were D&D based, which influenced not only all following computer & video games, but also the demand for personal computers in the first place. I've lost track of how many people I know got involved in programming due to D&D. Some of the very earliest traffic on arpanet, which evolved into the internet, was Fantasy Role Playing and adventure gaming. How many people signed up for AOL or Compuserve to play online RPG's obviously based on D&D? how much did that effect the development of both the internet and modern MMORPG's? AND, while Fantasy art was around before Gary, How much would there have been without the D&D spawned books, magazines, games, movies, etc? Throw that in with his influence on personal Computers & the Internet, and you have a argument that Mr. Gygax is directly responsible for Renderosity. Regardless, I know that I could cite Mr. Gygax as the reason I have 3 wonderful kids; I met their mom in a Gaming store.Paganize (talk) 08:10, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Who created D&D
I wonder if anybody is researching the controversy surrounding Gygax's creation of Chainmail and D&D and such. I remember when the games were first coming out (yes, I'm old) it was like a Paparazzi's dream, with all the gaming mags taking sides, people involved shouting that Gygax stole most of his ideas, that he originated everything, etc. that kind of thing. Would add to the information on that period of his life.Chicken McFuggits (talk) 12:55, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not aware of anyone actively researching this. However, if you know of magazines, or even better have access to some, such research would be very welcome, especially over at Dungeons & Dragons. — Alan De Smet | Talk 23:18, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll look around. Unfortunately, I went to Germany in '83 and lost touch with all my old gaming buddies. I'll see what I can't find.Chicken McFuggits (talk) 17:10, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Biography guidelines
Aren't the full names and exact birthdays of Gygax's grandchildren both unnecessary and also outside of the Wikipedia guidelines for biographies of living persons? User:PurpleChez 13 Sept 07 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.154.98.188 (talk) 00:56, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Fixed.  (For anyone else reading, the guidelines in question are regarding the privacy of names birthdays.) — Alan De Smet | Talk 04:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

TOC?
Why doesn't this page have a table of contents? I don't see a tag suppressing it. &mdash; Frecklefσσt | Talk 15:17, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The TOC was appearing within the WPBiography assessment box, because Talk:Gary Gygax/Comments is transcluded there and includes a header. I used the  magic word to move it below the templates so it is now visible.  Powers T 21:07, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Big THANKS
Big thanks to Frecklefoot and Alan De Smet for keeping a watchful eye on this article through all the vandalism! --None-of-the-Above 12:43, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup tag
Interesting article, but it needs serious copyediting and cleanup. Some of the assertions made in the article are unreferenced, the use of tense is inappropriate in several places, and passive voice is used in several places where active voice would be better. I started copyediting the article myself today, but I don't have time to finish it. Rray 16:25, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Deleted Gygax photo
Can someone explain why the image that Gary asked to be posted on his article (OF HIMSELF, not the D&D one above) and was personally given for this purpose was deleted? --None-of-the-Above (talk) 18:21, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I assume you're talking about Image:GaryGygax2.jpg. You can see the summary of the deletion in the file's log.   The log claims it was deleted because it was "non-commercial only (CSD I3)".  CSD I3 refers to Criteria for speedy deletion: Images and media: '3. Improper license'.  CSD I3 forbids '[i]mages licensed as 'for non-commercial use only', 'non-derivative use' or 'used with permission' ...  except where they have been shown to comply with the limited standards for the use of non-free content."  And indeed, from your initial upload message, it looks like the only license we had was "I give permission for its use" from Gygax.  (It's possible there was more; the upload summary is frequently truncated.) Unfortunately that isn't clear enough.  Did his permission include derivative or commercial use?  We can't know.  Wikipedia's goal is that it be as free as possible for any use.  An image on Wikipedia should be so free that someone can print a physical encyclopedia and charge for it, or someone could take an image from an article for news reporting, or even take an image, scrawl childish things on it, and post it on their geocities page.  "I give permission for its use" implies, "for Wikipedia only", which is a problem.  Now, CSD I3 does note that there is an exception, the non-free content policy.  The policy requires that, among other things, that there is "no free equivalent", either now, nor realistically possible.  A free equivalent is available, so it fails that test.  If we can confirm that the photograph is licensed under a suitably free license that allows basically any reuse, ideally a Wikipedia accepted license, it should be re-added.  If that is the case, I'd be happy to help you get it undeleted (I believe it is possible, but I'm not an admin), or ensure that the licensing is clear enough to avoid having it deleted in the future. — Alan De Smet | Talk 22:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Hey Alan. I haven't kept up with wiki law for more than a year now. A lot of submissions that I have done have been removed due to lack of following official guidelines. With all due respect, I would like to get Gary's picture that he intended back on the article. (Image:GaryGygax2.JPG) I asked him for a photo specifically for wikipedia with all rights and guidelines included. He gave me the photo specifically for wikipedia, so all the policy changing shouldn't matter. Now to prove it... here is an excerpt from the original mail. I think it should be sufficient...

Greetings Kim!

I didn't find anything erroneous in the Wicklopedia treatment, although I am the sole authorof the D&D game, Dave Arneson being created as co-creator of the concept. Tis fact is plainly set forth in Different Worlds #3, in which magazine Mr. Arneson states clearly that he did not write one world of the D&D game.

Tat aside, I believe the attached long biography of my game-related activities might be of interest to you.

A jpg photo is also attached, and I give permission for its use.

Cheers, Gary

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven." Matthew 5:16

- Original Message - From: "Kim NEVELSTEEN"

If you didn't know there is an article about you in Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Gygax I would like to add a picture of you to the article, but I only have two pictures of you which were photoshop'ed to make you look like a angel and a devil. These won't do for Wikipedia since it is an encyclopedia and actuality counts. Maybe you can volunteer a photo. You will have to give permission to use the picture under the public domain or Gnu free document license in order for me to post it on the wiki site. --None-of-the-Above (talk) 19:53, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, it is not just enough to do that. For starters, he must have chosen, explicitly, a license. And then, he should have sent a declaration of consent similar to the declaration of consent for all enquiries at Wikimedia Commons. More information can be found at Requesting copyright permission. Again in short: A license must have been explicitly chosen, and a declaration should have been sent. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 20:01, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Sadly, ReyBrujo is right; what you got isn't up to snuff; we need an explicit statement of which license he was willing to release it under. It's a shame, since I'm guessing Gygax would have been willing, but we can't know.  Without that, we're out of luck.  (I'm pretty sure the declaration of consent is ideal, but not strictly required.)  Me, I've largely given up on requesting copyright permissions from other people, since the Wikipedia standards are so high. — Alan De Smet | Talk 20:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The declaration is not needed, but if used it is definitive. It is surprising the amount of images uploaded at Commons with authorizations that read "Yes, feel free to use the image in Wikipedia" and nothing more. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 22:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, right. A man like Gary that answers 300 mails a day is REALLY going to go through the trouble of all that copyright info. Largely why I stopped editting. Too much red tape. Give me a break. Real shame.

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