Talk:Gary Gygax/Archive 2

Death
It's been posted on the Troll Lord Games site that EGG has died in his home. http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=4373&mforum=trolllordgames

Let's wait for some confirmation on this, but an update may be in order. Sad news. --DestroyYouAlot (talk) 16:47, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it's confirmed - Jolly Blackburn got an email from a mutual friend.

http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36484

RIP, Gary. --DestroyYouAlot (talk) 17:11, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * We're trusting a "troll" site to be a reliable source on this news? What seems wrong with this picture? ;-) Anyway, I mean no disrespect to Mr. Gygax -- if he really did die, R.I.P. Dr. Cash (talk) 18:19, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Troll Lords is the name of a gaming company, jackass. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.84.19.246 (talk) 18:24, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * This has been confirmed by the folks at Kenzer & Co Games, through a mutual family friend. SirFozzie (talk) 18:21, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

No news here: http://www.trolllord.com/newsite/news/index.html I would remain skeptical for now.

I would definitely prefer the CNN ref be used for this article rather than the local paper currently cited.--BizMgr (talk) 03:57, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * How about this then?--Boffob (talk) 18:37, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Confirmed. Lead story on Yahoo.  Every single player of WOW and every other game that derives from the D&D system ought to contribute to the funeral expenses. 71.9.8.150 (talk) 19:13, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Did the guy die broke or something? --70.109.223.188 (talk) 21:15, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * very sad news indeed l33tb0b (talk) 19:57, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * RIP. Bstone (talk) 20:39, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Some mainstream media reports: http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/03/04/obit.gygax.ap/ http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/03/04/national/a103425S84.DTL David Reiss (talk) 22:15, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I would definitely prefer the CNN ref be used for this article rather than the local paper currently cited.--BizMgr (talk) 03:58, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. The local news outlet was used when it was essentially the only one reporting it (beyond discussion forums).--Boffob (talk) 15:41, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Crap. He could have at least rolled a decent saving throw. 67.160.130.160 (talk) 16:20, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The game-oriented vandalism is cute to have in the history. Thankfully, responsible editors removed it each time in short order.  For entertainment, browse the article history since his death.  davidwr/  (talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail)  17:05, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * We'll miss you. Thanks for everything --Technotaoist (talk) 05:41, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * May he rest in peace. --Mithos64 (talk) 23:09, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Just... CRAP, damn it. He will be missed! --None-of-the-Above (talk) 18:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

My hero --87.78.226.148 (talk) 17:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC)Leo F. (Fokin') Crow (creator of the QLG)

Lead section
Can the last paragraph be moved down in the article. We don't need to know who first rported his death, that seems pretty irrelevant and not worthy of the lead. Maybe in a few days? Thanks, --70.109.223.188 (talk) 21:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed; now that it has been confirmed by AP, there's no need to refer to who reported it when. Removed.  Tempshill (talk) 21:48, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

How many kids?
From the article: "As of 2005, he was father to six children and grandfather to seven. His first five children are from his first marriage to Mary Jo Gygax, and the last two were via his second marriage.[7]." The math doesn't add up. DanielZimmerman (talk) 21:21, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Aw crud - I made grammatical changes throughout the page earlier today and obviously I just can't count. The original text indicated that five children were from the first marriage, and the last child from the second marriage. Gypsyhick (talk) 00:09, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation
How do you pronounce Gygax? - Montréalais (talk) 04:42, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I've always heard it as "guy-gacks".-- Bedford 04:49, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Same here in relation to Gary, but the footballer (soccer player to you Yanks) apparently pronounces it "Geek wax".212.135.238.117 (talk) 09:27, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Here is Gygax saying his own name at 00:20: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxo9gFBHJsE Universalcosmos (talk) 12:08, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

GenCon is NOT the wrold's largest hobby game convention by any means
Spiel at Essen is 10+ times larger chrisboote (talk) 11:59, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

honors
i notice "order of the stick" comic has been included into the section as honoring Mr Gygax, should anything be included about the way WotC honored/is honoring him via their D&D page http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/gygax.jpg which has replaced their standard entry page http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/welcome ? shadzar-talk 17:40, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Tribute mentions
I have seen a lot of high profile tributes or mentions about him and his death. Would those, properly sourced of course, be something appropriate? Examples that I have seen are NPR, Penny Arcade (webcomic) and The Colbert Report. I am sure that others will come up soon, but did not know if this would be right for Wikipedia to collect the references in some form of list. Slavlin (talk) 05:48, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Under "awards" it probably should be mentioned that, as of today, Blizzard Entertainment has dedicated the upcoming Patch 2.4 of "World of Warcraft" to Gygax' memory. Please see the mmo-champion.com website which has the forthcoming patch notes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.199.56.202 (talk) 15:34, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd honestly like to see the Troll Lord Games thread linked somehow - not because it's where the death was first reported, but because it's become somewhat of a "Gary guest book". They opened the thread to guest comments once they realize that the blogosphere was linking to it, and it's currently up to 47 pages of well-wishers and remembrances, most from people who don't game anymore but just needed somewhere to share their memories. Perhaps a "Reactions to Gygax's Death" section would be possible? --DestroyYouAlot (talk) 16:14, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Here is another from xkcd: http://xkcd.com/393/
 * --Stéphane Charette (talk) 16:51, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Geoffhanna (talk) 20:37, 7 March 2008 (UTC) could we consider creating a tribute section and moving all of the references there instead of having them both in the Death section and also in the Honors section? p.s. I added the Other Appearances header and paragraph but didn't notice that I had done so without first logging in.

Set up because he could manage?
The article currently quotes an interview where Gary talks about why he was pressured to leave TSR:
 * I was pretty much boxed out of the running of the company because the two guys, who between them had a controlling interest, thought they could run the company better than I could. I was set up because I could manage. In 1982 nobody on the West Coast would deal with TSR, but they had me start a new corporation called "Dungeons and Dragons Entertainment." It took a long time and a lot of hard work to get to be recognized as someone who was for real and not just a civilian, shall we say, in entertainment.

I'm currently working on a translation of this article for another language wikipedia, and I would like to include a version of this quote. But I can't for the life of me figure out what he means by "I was set up because I could manage." So I can think of about half a dozen possible meanings for this sentence. Anyone have any idea what Gygax actually meant!? --Iustinus (talk) 17:29, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * "Set up" could mean "put in a certain (positive) position" or "ambushed; framed; led into a trap."
 * "Manage" could mean "run a company" or "deal with (some bad thing)."
 * This is how I read Gary's statement. Gary stated he was capable in managing TSR, more so than the other two. As such, the two guys had no legitimate business-related excuse to oust Gary from a controlling position. They arrranged him to go to the West Coast to get him out of the company by having him start a new corporation, allowing them to do whatever they want. Jappalang (talk) 08:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * That's a very good theory, and so far you're the only one to suggest anything (either here, or among those I consulted privately.) Any other takers? I suppose I can assume this interpretation is correct unless I hear something better. --Iustinus (talk) 02:09, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

"When I was instructed by the Blumes to move to the West Coast and head up TSR Entertainment, the first thing I noted out there was a distinct dislike of TSR, this from earlier contact with the Blumes, as far as I could ascertain. Thus I immediately requested the BoD for a name change, and I got my way without any real fight. That is likely due to the fact that the Blumes considered the operation a good way to keep me out of their hair, and the name I asked for was a logical one considering the recognition factor."

- Gary Gygax http://www.thekyngdoms.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=37

i think this is what it is refering to or something similar. hopefully i did this quote thing correctly and doesnt mess up this page... shadzar-talk 01:06, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Quote unsourced
Hello. Im looking for sourcing this (famous) quote on wikiquote: "A DM only rolls the dice because of the noise they make." Any suggestions? Thx. — STAR TREK Man&#91;Space, the final frontier...&#93; 10:34, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * No help, no joy. :-( Could it be in one of the AD&D book preface or in a D&D magazine? Please, help. — STAR TREK Man&#91;Space, the final frontier...&#93; 11:41, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * According to this discussion, its origin could be in 1984, in the Wisconsin state court system (it was legally decided that Dave Arneson was the father of FRPs). Help!? — STAR TREK Man&#91;Space, the final frontier...&#93; 15:13, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Wikipedia isn't really the place for such a discussion.  "Please try to stay on the task of creating an encyclopedia. .... Also, bear in mind that talk pages exist for the purpose of discussing how to improve articles; they are not mere general discussion pages about the subject of the article, nor are they a helpdesk for obtaining instructions or technical assistance. If you wish to ask a specific question on a topic, Wikipedia has a Reference Desk, and questions should be asked there rather than on talk pages." (link to the reference desk.)  You might get lucky and some kind Wikipedian who happens to know might wander by and answer here, but it's far more likely to simply be ignored. You might want to check out Wikiquote's entry for Gygax, the quote is listed there as "unsourced", and it's talk page would be a good place to help find the source. — Alan De Smet | Talk 04:00, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Number of children
The article currently reads:
 * As of 2005, he was father to six children and grandfather to seven. His first five children are from his first marriage to Mary Jo Gygax, and the last child is from his second marriage.

But two plus five does not equal six, so clearly one of these figures is incorrect. The article cites the Long Biography on this point, but I don't have access to that document. Can someone who does please straighten this out? Thanks! Iustinus (talk) 02:08, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Umm... but "As of 2005, he was father to six children and grandfather to seven. His first five children are from his first marriage to Mary Jo Gygax, and the last child is from his second marriage." Five plus one (last) equals six. Jappalang (talk) 05:28, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * D'oh! You're right! I was working from an earlier version of the text, and when I came here to ask about it, I somehow didn't notice this had already been dealt with. How stupid of me, sorry. --Iustinus (talk) 21:59, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The LONG Bio literally reads...

Children: Alexander Hugh Hamilton Gygax born 2 October 1986 Lucion Paul Gygax* born 7 November 1970 Cindy Lee Gygax (Toe)* born 16 December 1966 Heidi Jo Gygax* born 20 October 1963 Mary Elise Gygax (Perrino*) born 1 August 1961 Ernest G. Gygax, Jr.* born 2 September 1959
 * children of previous marriage

Grandchildren: Joseph Perrino Jonathan Perrino Michael Gygax Ashley Gygax Alana Toe Mason Toe --None-of-the-Above (talk) 18:15, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Gaming career
Blume later partnered with Gygax and Kaye in the TSR enterprise. — is this really information about Gary's gaming career? while informative this sentence seems to focus more on Brian Blume than Gary. maybe its just the wording that sounds a bit off or the context? shadzar-talk 20:16, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

A source
Hello. Here is a source to find facts about Gary. It is in french sorry, but I could have an english version since I asked a copy to the admin of the website. In waiting I could help translate some sentences. Enjoy. — STAR TREK Man&#91;Space, the final frontier...&#93; 11:40, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Dragon Magazine publisher
not sure how to source this as requested on the page itself but here is what i got. Dragon Magazine archive in its articles' credits section listed E. Gary Gygax as the publisher for the following issues: (varying from page numbers 3-5)
 * 13-24,26-30 with a publishers statement to the effect of THE DRAGON is published monthly by TSR Periodicals, a division of TSR Hobbies, Inc., P.O. Box 110, Lake Geneva, WI 53147
 * 31-38 with a block with the credits saying similar to the above framed with the credits
 * 39-48 with a new publishing statement THE DRAGON is published monthly by Dragon Publishing, a division of TSR Hobbies Inc.

no idea where the credits for issue 25 is i couldnt find them in the PDFs. Jake Jaquet took over publisher title in the credits with issue 49. no publisher was listed for issues 1,3-12, and no credits could i find for issue 2 but all contained a publisher statement the same/similar as issues 13-38.

not sure how this can help the statement of publisher status for Dragon Magazine as specified in the article, or even how to add it, but there are the facts from the CDROM archives of the magazine that support the claim of Mr Gygax being the credited as the publisher. shadzar-talk 03:58, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll try to break out my own copy of the Dragon CDs soon and double check this, but I'm not clear what you're saying. "THE DRAGON is published monthly by TSR Periodicals, a division of TSR Hobbies, Inc...." would seem to be a clear statement that TSR as a company was the publisher, not Gygax as an individual. That's exactly why I asked about the citation. — Alan De Smet | Talk 23:02, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * it also lists specific persons who made the magazines. Editor, Artist, Publisher for many issues in addition to the "publishers statement" as its called in the early issues. shadzar-talk 23:15, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Color me surprised. I'm not really sure what it means for him to be the publisher, but it's right there in black and white.  I took a stab at adding a citation.  I really don't want to cite every single issue, so I tried for a crude single entry.  I also checked out issues 25 and couldn't find the matching entry either, so there is a gap.  I'm guessing the credits just got accidentally left out, but there isn't anything we can do about it. — Alan De Smet | Talk 02:18, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Hey, guys. I was the person who first noticed this in my CD ROM collection of Dragon as well. I've been doing some real world things I didn't notice the little hornets nest I stirred up over adding the publishers credit. Anyway, I just dug through my pdf's of Dragon again to see what I could find there. I found the following in issue #12. "Statement of Ownership, Management and Circulation". It appears to be a legal notice of some kind. The form does list Gygax by name as the publisher. I looked through other issues and found some similar statements. Those other ones I found it in were issues #55, #67 and #80. So, it looks like something they were supposed to print every year. Oddly, only the notice in issue #12 is clear, the others seem to be somewhat blurred, almost on-purpose. Not sure why, as one can make out the wording of them -- if we some difficulty. I couldn't find other references to this notice, but I didn't look through every page of every issue either. I may just have been listed elsewhere in the magazine. David Reiss (talk) 05:38, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Delete Coilhouse obituary
What is the value of "Remembering Gary Gygax by Wayne Chambliss - Coilhouse" in the obituary list. The Times and AP links are noteworthy because it's major coverage. The wkbt link is more marginal, but at least is local. Is there any reason to keep the Coilhouse link? — Alan De Smet | Talk 23:00, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Too short intro?
User:Thumperward believes the intro is too short. I disagree. The three most notable things about Gygax are that his co-created D&D, co-founded TSR, and considered a father of RPGs. Those three things so overshadow his other work that I don't seem anything else worth mentioning. We might cram in that he's no longer associated with D&D or TSR/WotC, but that's not much an addition. Stuffing a bunch of far less critical information into the intro just because the rest of the article is long doesn't really seem like an improvement. Perhaps I'm overlooking some obvious additions. Unless there is some further disagreement, I'm prone to remove the tooshort template at the top. — Alan De Smet | Talk 18:33, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Personally, I think there should be roughly one paragraph every 25kb of text. Therefore, yes, I think it is a very short. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 02:56, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * While that might be a good rule of thumb, it should be balanced against the details of the specific situation. In this case: okay, maybe we should reconsider the intro to see if there are things missing.  I've done so, and I find it a very effective summary.  What sorts of things do you think we're omitting from the intro? — Alan De Smet | Talk 22:54, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The intro perfectly summarises the article, and doesn't need to be any longer. The ratio of the length of the intro to the length of the article is irrelevant. Akiyama (talk) 09:11, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * It doesn't "perfectly summarise" it. Devoting one whole sentence to the man's career in RPGs is inadequate for an article of this length. It doesn't mention IFW, his work after TSR, his death, or give any details on his prestige in the community other than noting that he is considered a father to the industry. At some point the intro will have to get longer if this article is to reach GA status, because it's a simple MoS issue which almost any reviewer would pick up.
 * Despite their name, introductions in Wikipedia are not meant merely to provide a starting point for the reader. They're meant to provide reasonable summaries, such that one could be expected to have a reasonable understanding of the subject just by reading the intro. Here, if the reader doesn't happen to be familiar with D&D, they've no real frame of reference to ascertain the man's importance. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 20:14, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Personally, I think we should also add a sentence about his later interaction with the game, along the lines "Although not involved with the core Dungeons & Dragons material, he influenced different forms of entertainment from video games to movies." And a line about what he was doing until his death, like "Until his death, he was working for Troll Lord Games creating a number of original games...".
 * The leading should give as much information in as little room as possible, but without leaving the reader with the "Gary Gygax was the father of roleplaying" and forcing him to read the article about him to know where he got his influence and what he did after D&D. The Napoleon leading doesn't say he was a brilliant strategist only, or the leading in the Superman article doesn't just say he is the most popular comic character.
 * Interesting that this article contradicts with the main Dungeons & Dragons (where it says the game was created in 1974). -- ReyBrujo (talk) 20:56, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Where's the contradiction? Both articles say that D&D was first published in 1974.  TSR was founded in 1973, but there is a comma in that sentence that has the statement about both TSR and D&D.  (Of course, maybe I've overlooked some other place in one or both of the articles.)  Maybe that sentence in the lead should be rewritten as I can see where the confusion can arise.  --Craw-daddy | T | 21:14, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, you are right. It is just that I am used to a sorted list of achievements, not first something from 1974 and then something from 1973. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 04:18, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I want to add the statement ... Gygax is generally acknowledged as one of the fathers of the tabletop role-playing game and remained an icon in the role-playing community. ..., but I think it sounds kinda cheezy. I would like to justify his multiple appearances in media.--None-of-the-Above (talk) 10:56, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I see the tag has just been stripped without discussion; I've left a note on the admin's talk page. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 20:45, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Links to Sources Outside Wikipedia
I've noticed that there are a number of links in the article to sources that are not Wikipedia articles. In particular, the Awards and Honors section has a number of direct links to outside articles. I propose that all of those references be changed into footnoted references so that there is consistency in the section. SailorAlphaCentauri (talk) 20:14, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. And probably moving it to the bottom. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 02:54, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Off topic a little, but I don't feel like making another section. I found another really nice source you guys can use... here->