Talk:Gary Snyder/Archive 1

Fair use?
I doubt that the use of a book cover in an article that is not primarily discussing that book is a valid Fair Use claim. Filiocht | The kettle's on 11:23, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Gary Snyder and Dharma Bums
Shouldn't it go in this article some where that one of the two main figures in The Dharma Bums by Jack Kerouac was based on Gary Snyder, and that the book fictionalizes a real mountain climbing trip that Kerouac and Snyder took together. Besides being hilarious, the book gives an insightful view of Snyder's personality and how his viewpoint differed from the that of the Beats. KarenAnn 14:44, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Recent interviews with G.S.?
I wonder whether anyone who is watching this article has come across any recent interviews with Snyder.

I'm curious about his current views on a number of things (and not so much on poetry). Things like developments in the people's Republic of China (Snyder was so pro-China back in the late 1970s), recent decades in American politics, economy vis-a-vis environment, stuff like this.

My Web searches have tended to turn up pretty old stuff, or interviews rather specifically about his latest books. Thanks, to anyone who provides me a URL. Joel Russ 17:05, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

In an interview published in the Paris Review (and on Youtube as an audio file) Snyder was asked if he would have gone to China instead of Japan, given his interest in Chinese poetry, had the political situation been different. His answer was yes, but since he was also interested studying Buddhism, and the only Buddhists in China would have been in hiding (and with bruises), he went to Japan.

Marriages
The entry claims that Snyder has been married four times, but according to the chronology in the back of The Gary Snyder Reader (1999), I only count three: Joanne Kyger (m. 1960, dv. 1965), Masa Uehara (m. 1967, dv. 1989), and Carole Koda (m. 1991).Kmarzahl 16:48, 29 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I've looked at that chronology...  what's missing is a short-lived marriage to his college sweetheart, Alison Gass, in about 1949. Not sure why it was not mentioned.   M.C.


 * Does he have any children? 88.88.197.64 16:26, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Infobox
I noticed the page didn't have an info box so I added one. I filled in some of the info from the body of the article but please add in other information you have. In particular I think we could add in his influences and possible those he has influenced as per the Infobox template.Kirkmona (talk) 23:27, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

References, lack thereof
The article looks like it has a lot of great information and it is even detailed with direct quotes. Unfortunately, none of them have citations and the lack of references for the amount of information in the article is a bit disturbing. If should probably be tagged as an article lacking references. Kirkmona (talk) 23:27, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Pondering further improvements
I hope to do a major rewrite of this page over the next day or two, organising the content by time and adding more details on Snyder's life and work. If anyone objects, please leave a message on my Talk page. Filiocht 16:40, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Over-all, I like the additions here, and I definitely appreciate that the introduction tries to present a short statement about the value of Gary Snyder's work:


 * Gary Snyder (born May 8, 1930) is an American poet and environmental activist. Often associated with the Beats, his work represents one of the most significant attempts to bridge the gap between nature and culture in 20th century literature.

Some wikipedian's might object to this being a use of "peacock terms" ("most significant attempts"), but I'm not one of them. I have a suspicion that this may be a little too exaggerated, a little overblown, but personally I don't think the article would be improved by deleting it. (Better an overblown attempt at evaluation than none at all.)

One thought: would it be possible to illustrate the kind of thinking that Snyder did in this area, perhaps with some quotations from essays? I'm largely familiar with his poetry, which, while it tends to focus on natural imagery, has very little of an obvious polemic quality.

Another thought: some people seem to regard Snyder as the "patron saint of Deep Ecology" or some such. Is there any reason not to just say that? What is Synder's relationship with Deep Ecology?

I've got some other quibbles that are probably easier to address... I'm not sure it's quite true that Snyder "rejects" being called a Beat, e.g. one of the closing quotes of the documentary "The Source" has Snyder refering to the beats as "us". Though it is true that he seems to have some ambivalence about it (I've seen an interview where he mentioned that he wasn't sure it made sense to call him a beat).

Anyway, one of these days I may do some research in these areas and try and make some improvements. If anyone is feeling inspired, feel free to jump in. -- Doom 22:20, Jun 3, 2004 (UTC)

Discussion of the disputed "Avoid peacock terms" style guide:
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Avoid_peacock_terms


 * I wouldn't delete it as "peacock terms" with that as the only reason. However, I might consider a supporting para or two on critical reaction or other reason it's significant in the body of the article.


 * (There, trying to be helpful ;-)


 * "Avoid peacock terms" is best as a guide when writing oneself rather than as a reason to delete something else - David Gerard 22:28, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * I slimmed down the intro paragraph. --ESP 22:32, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

In the section regarding Reed College, I suggest mention be made of the WCW reading. It is on the Williams page and on the Welch page. Especially since common-speech became so important in Snyder's poetry. Whalen and Welch both refer to the reading effusively. It is documented that G.S. was there with these two friends. Recordings we have of Williams at the time include him taking time to talk about his poetics. It is also documented that WCW held individual interviews with young writers during the visit, but I don't yet know what Snyder may have shown him of his work. This was a seminal moment in the lives and poetics of all three young men. G.S. read Paterson in 1946, possibly loaned his copy to Welch before the reading. (Welch letter to his mother). G.S. read Olson's Projective Verse around the time of the reading which WCW praised in chapter 50 of his Autobiography in that same year, 1950. WCW wrote: "An advance of estimable proportions is made by looking at the poems as a field rather than an assembly of more or less ankylosed lines..." The significance of that reading should be included. This would lay the groundwork (ahem) for later encounters with the poets already in San Francisco (Rexroth, Duncan, Spicer, Blaser, McClure, Levertov) who would all later be lumped into the San Fransisco Rennaisance with him and the more famous "Beats". Snakespeare (talk) 18:18, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

New External Link
Hi, I added a new link which refers to a scientfic paper, I wrote about Snyder in university in 2007. It is not too specialized and for the most part of a more general nature. I hope it is good enough to meet the requirements of this article but if not, feel free to delete it. Regards Flo 321qwert (talk) 11:27, 15 August 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 321qwert (talk • contribs) 11:08, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Mother's name
It may seem a minor point, but it is highly unlikely that Lois's name changed from Hennessy Snyder to Snyder Hennessy at the time of her divorce. Her maiden name seems to have been Wilkey. Did she remarry, to a Mr. Hennessy? 'Twould be nice to create some consistancy within the article. This page doesn't seem to receive many visits. I will leave this message here for awhile, and then I guess I'll have to 'be bold'! Rags (talk) 19:16, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

1958 (?) passport decision
Was the court decision that led to Snyder finally receiving a US passport not Kent v. Dulles[]? If so, that was a US Supreme Court decision, not a DC circuit one; the DC circuit affirmed the decision of the lower court denying alleged Communist Rockwell Kent a US passport. The Supreme Court reversed. Since the passage is cited tho perhaps someone could check the source to see what it says there? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.98.118.115 (talk) 16:47, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

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Who you callin a beat?
Two things:

(1) "207.194.162.123" could you please open an account, it makes it a lot easier to keep track of who is doing what.

(2) I'm restoring the line about how Snyder "is often associated with the Beat generations", because (a) it is literally the truth, (b) I suspect the motives of people who object to this -- I think it's a misplaced form of hero-worship, (c) Snyder himself, as far as I can tell, is quite happy to talk about himself as a member of the Beat Generation.

I personally don't think there's anything particularly shameful about being a beat writer, and even if I did think there was something shameful about it, I would regard it as whitewashing to try and downplay Snyder's role as a beat poet.

I get the feeling that there's sentiment that comes up like "The great Gary Snyder should not be regarded as one of those trashy Beatniks!", but he *is* regarded as one by a lot of people (including me) certainly he at least first came to public attention as a writer coming out of that scene (not to mention as the subject of a Kerouac novel). This really and truly is one of the first things that you have to say about Snyder. It may not be the last thing, but it really has to be in the introduction, so PLEASE LEAVE IT THERE. Doom 02:04, May 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * On Gary Snyder being associated with the beats: I mostly agree with Doom on this one.  Snyder formed an indelible connection with the beats simply by being present at the legendary Howl reading (and by being a character in a Kerouac novel).  Since Snyder was overseas (or up in a lookout tower) during the most lively years of the beat movement, Zen Buddhist, American Indian, and naturalist/ecological themes come through much stronger in his work than in that of the beats who mostly stayed in American cities. However, he spent so much time with Ginsberg & friends, both overseas and in the U.S., that the mutual influence in undeniable.  He's not a beat, exactly, but their ideas are a part of him, and his of them.


 * Snyder tells a great story in Earth House Hold about going up a mountain trail with Allen Ginsberg while reciting some Buddhist chant. They run across some fishermen who are, needless to say, really confused about these goofy-looking poets chanting nonsense in the middle of the woods.  By way of explanation, Ginsberg tells the fishermen: "WE are forest beatniks!"  I think that says it all.--amysayrawr 17:57, May 1, 2005 (UTC)
 * Snyder was already experienced with peyote when he first met Ginsberg - his exploration of it predated that meeting by a year or two. The Beats may have been interested in poetry, but they frequented urban jazz bars and cafes, which was much less Snyder's scene (not to suggest that he avoided such places).  How much was botany, ornithology, forestry, or geomorphology a compelling interest of Ginsberg, Kerouac, Corso, or Burroughs?  Or Chinese linguistics, for that matter?  Or self-dsicipline? -H.K.
 * HK- I agree that themes central to Snyder's work were tangential to many of the Beats. However, they influenced each other in really significant ways.  Perhaps if we expand the article and flesh out the info about the interests you name (eg, botany and Chinese linguistics) it will give readers a better idea of the areas of overlap and differences between Snyder and the Beats.  Personally I think we should change the "Is Snyder a Beat?" heading to something that doesn't imply a yes/no answer, eg "Snyder and the Beat Generation" or some such.  Does anyone dis/agree?  I'm trying to step lightly since I'm new here... --amysayrawr 18:43, May 2, 2005 (UTC)
 * Personally, I don't care what the section is called. There was already a section of the form "Is Snyder a ____?" so I just added another one.  You can look at it as me trying to step lightly instead of calling it something like "He is too a beat, so there!"
 * The point of view that HK is arguing is what I'm vehmently against -- Snyder may very well have been one of the smarter Beats, certainly he was less self-destructive than Kerouac/Cassady/Corso -- but so what? The idea that the Beats were a bunch of stupid ignoramouses is a gross exaggeration, Burroughs had probably read some books that Snyder hasn't... again, so what? And okay, so Snyder was outside of the US when a lot of the media circus kicked in, but you can say the same of Ginsberg, Corso and Burroughs (they were off in Paris/Tangiers and so on).  And like I said, it's literally the case that Snyder is associated with the Beats... complain about that if you want, but it's the truth, and Snyder doesn't seem to have a problem with it. -- Doom 00:52, May 6, 2005 (UTC)
 * There is less of a line of demarcation between our viewpoints than you seem to believe, UTC. Kerouac and Ginsberg were obviously among Snyder's closest friends for some time.  They were all at Six Gallery (so was Rexroth - who, in effect, introduced Ginsberg to Snyder). Snyder often got drunk, as did his Beat friends; and sex figures as big for Snyder as for the others.  Did any of the rest of them want to be an Indian (Amerind) or be like an Indian when they were kids, though?  (Okay, every kid has his own fantasies.)  But did any of the others want to become as familiar with forests, streams, native plants, lizards, and rock formations?  How many of the others would hike out alone into the mountain forests in just a jock strap?  How many of the others were willing, at 25, to learn Japanese and submit to the long meditation hours and strict rules of a Zen monastery?  Or live on an island with a small group of others, spearfishing for food?  How many of the others built their own house and homestead?  Snyder's poetry and lectures and interview responses come out of these experiences.


 * In Don Allen's modern poetry collection (circa 1960), Allen separated Snyder from the Beats, including him with a group of independents.


 * So I can wobble between either point of view: to Beat, or not to Beat. H.K.


 * Okay, well you might also make the point that the Big Three beats are also very different people (there's a Burroughs quote: "You couldn't find three more different writers"). The point of views that I can wobble between are (a) the beat generation is just a social grouping -- people who knew each other; (b) there is some commonality in their work but it's something fairly vague, like an instinct for non-conformity, a fascination with the exotic. And this, as far as I can tell, is pretty close to Snyder's take -- he's not entirely sure what it means to be a "Beat", but doesn't mind being classified as one either. Doom 21:10, May 6, 2005 (UTC)

Well, it looks like this issue may be heating up again... more recent edits were pushing the "Beat Generation" association further down in the introduction, and adding some (to my mind) excessively complicated language about how Snyder might be considered an "independant"... so I'm once again trying to get the "Beat" business in the first line, or close to it -- I think it's a dis-service to the reader to push it further down. Of course you can think of Snyder as being "independant": I don't think there's a poet that's worth anything that couldn't be considered "independant". Anyway, if someone feels like arguing to the contrary, this is a good place to do it. -- Doom 03:10, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I absolutely that he has to be associated with the Beats. Everything I've read on the subject indicates that he was one of "the Beats," and, as Doom has stated above, Snyder has never disputed the association. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  03:46, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

When asked (during an interview of which there is video documentation on Youtube) if he resented always being associated with the Beat Generation, Snyder thought for a few moments and said, (paraphrasing from memory) "not as much now as I used to, mainly because no one's said that for a long time." Not quite accurate that he "has never disputed the association." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.156.167.120 (talk) 11:22, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Snyder is usually included in discussions of the Beat Generation, but when that discussion moves beyond superficial groupings and looks at literary content, it becomes more and more clear he was more different from other Beats than he was like them. Specifically the Beats were a phenomenon of the 1950s who, as Norman Mailer described it, desired a personal identity freed from the "numbing culture of conformity and psychoanalysis to embrace a rebellious, personal violence and emancipating sexuality." Snyder, for one thing, was younger. At age 25 he burned all the poems he had ever written and embarked a study, both academic and personal, of Chinese poetry and Zen Buddhism; the object of the latter was letting go of personal identity, not establishing a new one. As well, his work was not published until 1960s, by which time the Beats were yesterday's news. So Snyder is a Beat, and isn't a Beat. But the closer you look, the more he isn't. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.156.167.120 (talk) 12:13, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Snyder still a Wobbly?
Snyder has mentioned that his grandfather was a Wobbly. I believe his father may have been. And Snyder (in the late '60s) described himself as "an old Wobbly" - but, if he ever held membership, is he still a member? Someone confidently added this notion to the article introduction, but is it accurate? M. Coral

I agree. I have searched through my personal books and the Internet for any evidence that Snyder was, or is now a member of the IWW, but I could find nothing to substantiate that claim. Unless the information can be documented, I believe it is spurious, at best. Terry1944 19:43, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

The IWW lists him as a "notable member." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.156.167.120 (talk) 11:15, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

From Snyder himself:

"How did you identify yourself? Your grandfather was a Wobbly.

Yeah, [a member of] the International Workers of the World, and the IWW is still a good memory for all of us. I joined the IWW later, it still exists and I still have my IWW card."

https://medium.com/@seankelder/a-sense-of-the-land-an-interview-with-gary-snyder-c45148ccc417 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.156.167.120 (talk) 12:29, 16 February 2018 (UTC)