Talk:Gary Webb/Archive 2

"The CIA-backed Contras who had allegedly smuggled cocaine into the U.S. "
Allegedly.

Meaning, not proven.

Please read United States District Court, Southern District of California, testimony of Danilo Blandon,United States v. Curtis James, Ricky Ross, Michael Ross, Case No. 95-0353-H-Crim. March 6 and 7, 1996.

There you will read sworn court testimony by Danilo Blandon. He talks about his ties to Enrique Bermudez, commandant of the Contra army and their successful operations of moving cocaine to Los Angeles and recycling the profits back to the Contras. How close were the Contras and the CIA?

Joined at the hip.

The whole tone of this article is too apologetic; everywhere in the page the word 'allegedly' is used. Did the author read any of the source articles? Apparently not! How sophomoric can a writer get? Wikipedia readers are responsible enough to decide for themselves without being coached by the author with code words that say 'Ewww, we can't be too sure here ' cause this is so close to admitting a part of the US government is bad.' This whole article  could stand  a good dose of some facts, as they are reported in Whiteout,the CIA, Drugs and the Press by Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St. Clair.

After many noises surrounding Webb's articles and loud harrumphs from the CIA and its cheerleaders, (including David Corn, a insider at 'The Nation.com'), an intense and far-reaching investigation was finally published in December of 1997, by the CIA's Inspector General, Fred Hitz. In that report, details of drug traffic operated by the CIA are reported, detailed and documented, not 'alleged'.

Inspector General Hitz's second volume of the investigation, released in the fall of 1998, corroborated  Webb's case very closely, as James Risen conceded in a story in the New York Times on October 10 of that year.

For his heroic writing at the San Jose Mercury News, Webb paid a terribe price. He was flayed, drawn and quartered by journalistic colleagues at the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, the American Journalism Review and even the Nation magazine. Under this media pressure, his editor Jerry Ceppos caved into peer pressure and threw out the story, removed it from their web site and demoted Webb, motivating him to quit the Mercury News. The CIA is known to have media plants who regularly go to bat for them. Too bad Wikipedia has to join the vultures feeding on Webb's corpse.

Thaddeus10 (talk) 05:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC) Remove the link to Alex Jones, for crissakes. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a forum for loons to share links. Gary's friends knew he was a depressive, and miserable, as well as humiliated, and couldn't afford his own house. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.159.115.103 (talk) 00:46, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Police officer Mike Ruppert offered the FBI and other authorities evidence to support the claim that the CIA was dealing drugs multiple times, also at a public meeting with the then chief of the CIA John Deutch present. He was shot at after having sendt evidence and reports to his superiors, and higher offices, but never got anywhere, and was subsequently forced off the police force and had to go into hiding after several attempts on his life and multiple break ins into where he he lived at several places. This is a witness that has testified in public hearings, sworn his statements, provided evidence, referred to other people on the police force who had been subject to the same and also offered to be working for the CIA and dealing drugs for the CIA. He has been the subject of a smear campaign and character assassination ever since. Just thought people should know.


 * Well the question of course is not whether or not "there were Contras who dealt drugs" -- everybody knows there were. The question is whether or not there were high-ranking Contras with US connections, specifically in the FDN (the branch arguably closest to the CIA and North), who were dealing drugs (or worse, dealing drugs with cooperation from their US patrons), as has been alleged by many, or whether Contra drug trafficking was only the work of a few opportunistic rogue Contras who didn't hold much rank and wanted an extra source of income (ostensibly when ARDE lost CIA support; or when the Boland Amendment "cut Contra funding," though we know that never really happened), as the CIA and state department have insisted and continue to insist. The introductory material in the book Dark Alliance by Webb, as well as the book Cocaine Politics by Marshall/Scott, make it clear that the Kerry Committee found evidence (and published it in documents available by FOIA request) that in fact, the former was true: high-ranking Contras of the FDN were involved in drug dealing, as were several companies and individuals who'd been kept on State-dept. payroll for operating the supply chains of weapons and "humanitarian aid" through Panama, Costa Rica, and El Salvador's Ilopango Airport (in addition to the testimonies implicating them, there were also concurrent FBI investigations of some of them, several of which resulting in court rulings against those individuals/companies after finding evidence of drug dealing on their part, though not necessarily drug dealing connected to the Contras). But the witnesses who implicated them were discredited by the Reagan administration as being "a bunch of drug dealers" (who, supposedly, were inherently untrustworthy, willing to lie for the hope of reduced sentences), even though A: there was corroboration between their testimonies, and B: many of the same witnesses, and certainly many more witnesses of the same narcotrafficker background, provided testimony later when the administration of former Reagan-VP Bush wanted to indict Noriega as a pretext for invasion and bringing him to trial, suggesting (as several academics have pointed out) a double-standard of legality. Anyhow, in light of the fact that the FDN trafficking was confirmed by many testimonies, but still denied by the CIA, we should keep the statements regarding trafficking by ranking/US-connected Contras as "alleged" in the article, though we should acknowledge the wealth of evidence that has been presented to back up the allegations. 173.3.41.6 (talk) 16:27, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

The statement that his death was ruled a suicide despite 2 gunshots in the back of the head needs to have further explanation. The article can't just leave it at that and leave the obvious questions open. Tempshill 23:46, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Any explanation would have to be based on reliable sources. Remember, no original research. &mdash;Viriditas | Talk 23:49, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * That it was a suicide despite two gunshots is well explained in Rupperts "Saying Goodbye to a Giant" (link in the Commentaries section). –Vinsci 01:02, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I can't find any report of the gunshots being from the back of the head! I suspect that bit is baloney.

Check here: www.prisonplanet.com/articles/december2004/141204webbmurdered.htm]  Richard75 17:00, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, there is a conflict with this part of the article and the article Multiple gunshot suicide. In this article, it reads "Many have pointed to the fact that Webb was shot not once, but twice to the face, which is extremely odd in cases of suicide." However, in the multiple gunshot suicide article, it reads "that suicides by firearm involving multiple gunshots, although uncommon, are by no means rare; as many as eight percent (nearly one in every twelve) of suicides by firearm involve multiple gunshots." Suggestions, anyone? 204.181.137.127 14:46, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Could we please remove the reference to the prisonplanet.com article? I don't really think an untreated paranoid schizophrenic like Alex Jones should be taken seriously as a source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.179.172.184 (talk) 05:05, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. Alex Jones is not a RS. Viriditas (talk) 05:18, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

How about referring to what make the gun was? Some pistols are easier than others to make a "double shot"

Who actually believes someone who has just shot himself in the head can deliver a second fatal shot? What was the condition of his skull? What was the findings of the reconstruction? What firearm did he use? Was it a .38 Smith & Wesson as sources say? If so, how did he manage to fire two shots with such a powerful revolver? This revolver does not fire two rounds from one pull. All of this must be added to the page. Throwing it out because there is a theory behind it is ridiculous. If the information given by the coroner doesn't make sense, the article should at least mention this. --69.249.243.43 (talk) 06:51, 20 January 2011 (UTC)


 * On an intuitive level, your assertion make sense. However, as mentioned in the comment above, a significant percentage of firearm suicides involve two (or more)shots.  In addition, Gary Webb's wife is convinced he committed suicide because she was well aware of he was despondent, and she received a suicide note.  The near-certainty of Webb's suicide does not detract from the fact that his career ended prematurely because he crossed some very powerful people who wished to discredit him--all of his allegations, and more, have been confirmed during the years since his passing.  I hold particular disdain for the owners of the San Jose Mercury News, who should have defended Webb; instead they bowed under pressure and decided to throw Webb (almost literally) under the bus. Apostle12 (talk) 22:27, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Since when did "significant percentage" = "eight percent"? What is the percentage of people who shoot themselves twice in the face? The number "3.6%" is offered at the Wikipedia linked site two gunshot wounds. These questions are not discussed because Wikipedia's objectives are to promote disinformation on topics such as this person's questionable suicide. The government says a lie, the mass media promotes the lie, and then Wikipedia affirms the lie by preventing admission of primary sources refuting the lie. For example, the memo by CMD Mark Finch DoD Atlanta Command sent at 0500 20 April 1995 that two bombs were discovered and removed from the OKC bombing rescue operation is not allowed because it is a primary source. And now, this guy's suicide, by shooting himself twice in the head, is rationalized by Apostle12 (talk) 22:27, 20 January 2011 (UTC) as statistically possible and as if being possible is probable. In order that this post not be deleted as a rant, which is a common form of censoring talk page edits, here is some advice for new Wikipedia editors. 1. Do not edit Wikipedia articles with primary sources of evidence indicating the government is involved in conspiracies, such as 9/11, the OKC bombing, or the 1993 WTC bombing. 2. Do not edit articles in such a way that multiple conspiracies are tied together under one framework. 3. Recognize that Wikipedia is not a forum to blog, rant, analyze, write, or edit "controversial" things. 4. By Wikipedia's own policy, Wikipedia is not striving to find or communicate "truth". Let me give you a hypothetical. If Wikipedia were around in the Middle Ages, then they would have strived to provide both sides of the following controversy: The Sun revolves around the Earth. Wikipedia would downplay Galileo as "unsourced" or "unverified" by "credible" "secondary sources". Wikipedia would then explain, using one of its senior ranked editors, that it is "common knowledge" that the Sun revolves around the Earth and that Wikipedia is not a forum for promoting controversial issues. With this hypothetical at its end, you, the new editor, should recognize what Wikipedia is useful for. I like to read about dinosaurs and English punctuation and grammar rules. Do not provide controversial edits in Wikipedia articles. Gauzeandchess (talk) 04:18, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Please try to stick to the subject at hand; you are once again misusing talkpages to vent about conspiracy theories.  Acroterion   (talk)   11:39, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Italicized emphasis
I've removed the italicized emphasis added to the number of gunshots. This only serves to reinforce the conspiracy theorists and alters the meaning of the passage. Viriditas (talk) 14:39, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Good for you Viriditas. I'm sure that by removing the italics you will reduce a reader's ability to question how someone shot himself twice in the face and head while committing suicide. Gauzeandchess (talk) 04:34, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Gauzeandchess. I can say conclusively that the decision to remove the italics left me in no doubt that this journalist, who was critical of the involvement of clandestine government agents with drug cartels, did in fact shoot himself twice in the head.--Senor Freebie (talk) 16:47, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

This cannot be suicide, you cannot shoot yourself in the head one time after the other
I read the multiple gunshot suicide article but this is about gunshot wounds TO THE BODY, not the head. If you fire a shot through your head, you will be knocked unconscious whether you die or not. It will be like hitting someone in the head with a crowbar. You will not be in a position to fire again even if you survive the wound at first. You have to be conscious in order to release the trigger then pull it again. Please correct the text, it simply does not make sense. Write "apparent suicide" instead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.92.26.25 (talk) 14:36, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

It is surprisingly common for people to shoot themselves in the head one time after the other, because there is only a small area of the head where a single shot will achieve incapacitation. See this sentence in the article multiple gunshot suicide: Incapacitation by a shot to the head is achieved when the bullet penetrates the telencephalon; however, numerous bullet trajectories, including a shot between the eyes, do not achieve this penetration. Jmkleeberg (talk) 15:09, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Its impossible and that unsources article just talks about multiple body shots.74.106.205.147 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:38, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Suicide?
"Facing a barrage of calls from the media and the public, the Sacramento County Coroner's Office issued a statement Tuesday confirming that former investigative reporter Gary Webb committed suicide with two gunshots to the head."

Now, it may be possible to shoot yourself twice in the head, depending on angle and other details that are missing from that report, but the chances of that happening are SO slim, that it was almost certainly a murder. This information needs to be in the article, or at least in the controversy section. Bumblebritches57 (talk) 16:01, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Archives of Dark Alliance pages
See Talk:Gary Webb/DarkAllianceArchives WhisperToMe (talk) 14:13, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

USDOJ pages
USDOJ/OIG Special Report THE CIA-CONTRA-CRACK COCAINE CONTROVERSY: A REVIEW OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT’S INVESTIGATIONS AND PROSECUTIONS (December, 1997)
 * Table of Contents - http://archive.is/vHXub - http://www.webcitation.org/6Lt8sx6m2
 * Executive Summary (listing of contents) - http://archive.is/ckA8Z - http://www.webcitation.org/6Lt8zbgal
 * Part I - http://archive.is/xuyrd - http://www.webcitation.org/6Lt94rFKW
 * Part II - http://archive.is/s1bj5 - http://www.webcitation.org/6Lt9Ay9jd
 * Part III - http://archive.is/u6vlt - http://www.webcitation.org/6Lt9E2zSN
 * Chapter I: Introduction
 * Part I - http://archive.is/4RINp - http://www.webcitation.org/6Lt9MIbXO
 * Part II - http://archive.is/KrHrw - http://www.webcitation.org/6Lt9Q1Ku2
 * Chapter II: Oscar Danilo Blandon
 * Part I - http://archive.is/Y6Hoa - http://www.webcitation.org/6LroaBbjQ
 * Part II - http://archive.is/IuRdL - http://www.webcitation.org/6Lt9iU1ou
 * Part III - http://archive.is/dluGA - http://www.webcitation.org/6Lt9lClwp
 * Part IV - http://archive.is/th8Vl - http://www.webcitation.org/6Lt9oAaNl
 * Part V - http://archive.is/vddF0 - http://www.webcitation.org/6LtA6LFtw
 * Part VI - http://archive.is/PkvXx - http://www.webcitation.org/6LtAA2yEx
 * Part VII - http://archive.is/vW9Cl - http://www.webcitation.org/6LtACjzi1
 * Chapter III: Norwin Meneses
 * Part I - http://archive.is/6K14Y - http://www.webcitation.org/6LtAJfFcL
 * Part II - http://archive.is/BBFxN - http://www.webcitation.org/6LtAMhoCD
 * Part III - http://archive.is/u2Yph - http://www.webcitation.org/6LtARbbkR
 * Part IV - http://archive.is/8xC10 - http://www.webcitation.org/6LtAUGuJS
 * Chapter IV: OIG Analysis of Allegations Regarding Blandon's and Meneses' Relationship with the Contras and the CIA
 * Part I: OIG Review of Sources of Allegations - http://archive.is/ClBt8 - http://www.webcitation.org/6LtAayrkJ
 * Part II: OIG Investigation Regarding Support of the Contras by Blandon and Meneses - http://archive.is/59zWg - http://www.webcitation.org/6LtAdLLRc
 * Chapter V: Ronald Lister
 * Part 1 - http://archive.is/XjaPD - http://www.webcitation.org/6MXbf9nKY
 * Part II - http://archive.is/DVOur - http://www.webcitation.org/6MXbiQDEV
 * Part III - http://archive.is/XKnHC - http://www.webcitation.org/6MXbmPBIk
 * Chapter VI: Ricky Ross
 * Part I - http://archive.is/Hu0ov - http://www.webcitation.org/6MXbqmi2u
 * Part II - http://archive.is/ADAbD - http://www.webcitation.org/6MXbySSHw
 * This states: "Lastly, the Mercury News series asserted that Ross' and Blandon's drug network was the catalyst for the crack epidemic that erupted in the 1980s across America, not just the epidemic that occurred in the city of Los Angeles. According to one article, "The cocaine that flooded in [through Blandon's drug ring] helped spark a crack explosion in urban America . . ." During a June 22, 1997 interview with the Revolutionary Worker, Gary Webb clarified the point he intended for the article to make: [...] The OIG investigation found little to support the Mercury News' claims concerning Ross' and Blandon's allegedly seminal roles in the proliferation of crack cocaine in Los Angeles. The OIG uncovered even less evidence to support the allegations concerning Ross' and Blandon's roles in the spread of crack cocaine across the nation. We uncovered conflicting evidence of the singularity of Ross' ties to Colombian dealers. Ross may indeed have been one of the first black dealers in South Central Los Angeles to forge a tie, through Blandon, to a Colombian supplier. However, the significance of that fact is debatable; other black South Central dealers who were Ross' contemporaries found their own Colombian cocaine suppliers either in the same timeframe or shortly after Ross did, and without Blandon's assistance."
 * Part III - http://archive.is/wac4v - http://www.webcitation.org/6MXc2PX9C
 * Part IV - http://archive.is/Bnv7Y - http://www.webcitation.org/6MXc5WodO
 * Part V - http://archive.is/00Qxk - http://www.webcitation.org/6MXcAs3Yp
 * Chapter VII: Enrique Miranda-Jaime - http://archive.is/nXoMA - http://www.webcitation.org/6MXcHlXgf
 * Chapter VIII: Julio Zavala
 * Part I - http://archive.is/mB0Hx - http://www.webcitation.org/6MXcObqWV
 * Part II - http://archive.is/gNfvm - http://www.webcitation.org/6MXcT9GSI
 * Chapter IX: Carlos Cabezas
 * Part I - http://archive.is/3FRek - http://www.webcitation.org/6MXcYOb7S
 * Part II - http://archive.is/hesnl - http://www.webcitation.org/6MXcc7n4J
 * Chapter X: Celerino Castillo
 * Part I - http://archive.is/QfJSW - http://www.webcitation.org/6MXcobsRb
 * Part II - http://archive.is/7e28o - http://www.webcitation.org/6MXcxdAJJ
 * Part III - http://archive.is/WvHW6 - http://www.webcitation.org/6MXd14QP8
 * Part IV - http://archive.is/yXHy8 - http://www.webcitation.org/6MXd4DikQ
 * Chapter XI: DEA's Response to Information About Contra Drug Trafficking And Miscellaneous Case
 * Part I - http://archive.is/jTs4l - http://www.webcitation.org/6MXdSCXQk
 * Part II - http://archive.is/lYM5J - http://www.webcitation.org/6MXdWxFrc
 * Chapter XII: Conclusions - http://archive.is/E3qmz - http://www.webcitation.org/6MXdb6FGU

Appendices:
 * A - http://archive.is/KgJp2 - http://www.webcitation.org/6MXdeyBEQ
 * B - http://archive.is/K0Fmn - http://www.webcitation.org/6MXdkEZ3O
 * C - http://archive.is/Sjire - http://www.webcitation.org/6MXdnPXBe
 * D - http://archive.is/LKBiI - http://www.webcitation.org/6MXdqDFNq
 * E - http://archive.is/1Hfxt - http://www.webcitation.org/6MXdtDMjr - Timeline of Oscar Danilo Blandon
 * F - http://archive.is/b7REp - http://www.webcitation.org/6MXdxJeMH - Glossary

Epilogue, July 1998 WhisperToMe (talk) 20:01, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "Epilogue." - http://archive.is/FHmI8 - http://www.webcitation.org/6Lt8mFuw6

Esquire analysis of critical articles
In the Esquire article "Gary Webb, 1955 - 2004"
 * http://web.archive.org/web/20060518074808/http://www.esquire.com/features/articles/2004/041217_mfe_webb_8.html - http://archive.is/mTnfw - http://www.webcitation.org/6LtTyWj7e (page 8)
 * http://web.archive.org/web/20060518074834/http://www.esquire.com/features/articles/2004/041217_mfe_webb_9.html - http://archive.is/dlaSy - http://www.webcitation.org/6LtUfs4my (Page 9)

The authors of this article analyze the NYT/WaPo/LA Times articles criticizing Webb's articles and state why they feel the articles were faulty. They state that the three critical ones cited unnamed law enforcement and intelligence officials while the Mercury articles cite actual documents and court testimony. WhisperToMe (talk) 22:32, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Note about Esquire
WhisperToMe (talk) 23:32, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Pierce, Charles P. "Gary Webb And The Limits Of Vindication." Esquire. June 18, 2013. states:
 * "(Full disclosure: Prior to his suicide in 2004, Webb wrote for the print edition of Esquire.)"

More articles
WhisperToMe (talk) 22:39, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
 * "COVERT CONNECTIONS?." (Archive) PBS Newshour. November 18, 1996. - Transcript of Jim Lehrer's program discussing John Deutch's trip to Los Angeles.

Sources on the CSUN site
Talk:Gary Webb/CSUNpages I have found additional resources and will post them here WhisperToMe (talk) 16:24, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

There are California State University, Northridge pages from Dr. Bernardo Attias, titled "San Jose Mercury News Phony Epilogue" and "Cocaine Import Agency" -- these pages include news articles that can be of use to this page WhisperToMe (talk) 16:29, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

My plan for this article
After the NPOV dispute is finished, I want do this: split this article into two:
 * Gary Webb - A biography of Gary Webb
 * Dark Alliance - An article about the book (remember if a book has at least two reviews it meets WP:GNG) and about the preceding journalist stories (the background)

That way it is easier for someone to read about either topic. You can use a university library search (I use University of Houston Libraries) to generate a list of possible book reviews, and then use WP:RX to get personal copies of the said book reviews. WhisperToMe (talk) 11:50, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Looks like you have help. It's already done (I fixed your link above). Viriditas (talk) 12:16, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much, Viriditas! WhisperToMe (talk) 14:42, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

My plan for this article
After the NPOV dispute is finished, I want do this: split this article into two:
 * Gary Webb - A biography of Gary Webb
 * Dark Alliance - An article about the book (remember if a book has at least two reviews it meets WP:GNG) and about the preceding journalist stories (the background)

That way it is easier for someone to read about either topic. You can use a university library search (I use University of Houston Libraries) to generate a list of possible book reviews, and then use WP:RX to get personal copies of the said book reviews. WhisperToMe (talk) 11:50, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Looks like you have help. It's already done (I fixed your link above). Viriditas (talk) 12:16, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much, Viriditas! WhisperToMe (talk) 14:42, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Media reaction to Webb's articles
Might be interestign to include in this article as it backs many claims, that have until now, have been seen as unproven. Sources are declassified CIA Articles eg http://www.foia.cia.gov/sites/default/files/DOC_0001372115.pdf Full article: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/09/25/managing-nightmare-cia-media-destruction-gary-webb/ -- 2003:47:8B1D:AD01:8407:D244:6D20:A713 (talk) 09:11, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Frankly, it's the best article ever written on the subject, so it should be included. It also condemns the actions of The New York Times, The Washington Post, and The Los Angeles Times. I think it is safe to declare that the mainstream media is no longer a valid source for news. Viriditas (talk) 10:10, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
 * "I think it is safe to declare that the mainstream media is no longer a valid source for news." -- Like it ever was ... Xowets (talk) 17:59, 21 October 2014 (UTC)