Talk:Gascon Saintongeois

Move?

 * Gascon Saintongeois → Grand Gascon-Saintongeois — (Discuss) — Is the proper name. UKC, FCI, CKC, and pretty much all groups/kennels that recognize the breed call it by this name. The "-" between Gascon and Saintongeois can be argued, however.
 * Ref:
 * http://www.loveofbreeds.com/GrandGasconSaintongeois.html
 * http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Breeds/GrandGascon-Saintongeois
 * http://www.breedspecialist.com/dogbreeds-G/Grand-Gascon-Saintongeois-.html
 * http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/fcibreeds.htm
 * http://www.continentalkennelclub.com/BreedMain.html
 * http://www.universalkennel.com/List_of_Recognized_Breeds.htm
 * http://knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Dog_breed/
 * {talk) Avalik (talk) 10:06, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Requested move
No move, per evidence provided by Hafwyn. Parsecboy (talk) 13:25, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Gascon Saintongeois → Grand Gascon-Saintongeois — reason for move is stated above — Avalik (talk) 00:56, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.


 * Support Majority of the breeds are separated. Wirehaired Fox Terrier, Smooth Fox Terrier... Smooth Collie, Rough Collie... Grand and Petite are not the same breed, hence the different in name... as such I would support creating both Petite and Grand, but one article for both in inconvenient. Avalik (talk) 22:31, 2 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Strongly Oppose. The Gascon Saintongeois is one breed with two varieties; the Grand, and the Petite (which is NOT a small dog, it is also a large dog, just smaller than the bigger one, as noted in the article; the image represents both sizes.) Please see the French breed standard and grouping listed on the FCI website-- note these are the same breed:
 * http://www.fci.be/nomenclatures_detail.asp?lang=en&file=group6 1.1 Large-sized Hounds -- a) Grand Gascon saintongeois breed No. 21 AND  1.2Medium-sized Hounds -- b) Petit gascon saintongeois breed No. 21.
 * The problem seems to be that in North America only one size is represented, so all the myriad kennel clubs there list it as the Grand only. But it is only one size of two. This is a French breed, not a US-only breed; so both sizes should be listed. Two separate articles could be written, although that is not usual for one breed in two (or more) sizes; the Poodle only gets one article for all its various sizes.--Hafwyn (talk) 15:12, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:

There are other breeds that are considered one breed in several varieties in their original home countries, but when exported, are registered as separate breeds. The two sizes of Gascon Saintongeois are one breed, but registries in the US have, for whatever reason, chosen to either ignore the Petite or register it as a separate breed. That should probably be discussed in the article.--Hafwyn (talk) 15:12, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Virelade
Books that discuss the French hounds in France refer to the pack of Gascon-Saintongeois kept by the owner of the Château de Virelade. One book, The History of Sport in Britain, 1880-1914, (Vol. V, by Martin Polley, pg 377, Published by Taylor & Francis, 2004, ISBN 041531870X) says "The Gascon-Saintongeois -- sometimes known as the Virelade hound" - (then continues with a description, interesting reading about the French hounds, including more about the origins of the Gascon-Saintongeois.) There are other references to the Virelade/Gascon-Saintongeois, I will look for the references.--Hafwyn (talk) 15:12, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * If you are referring to the Verelade, that is a different breed. They aren't even hounds, I believe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Avalik (talk • contribs) 04:50, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

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