Talk:Gastarbeiter

An example use 1970's
At my page at Simple English Wikipedia. Here it was used literally. But it also had the pejorative meaning, accidentally ... Shenme 00:30, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Polish Gastarbeiter in East Germany
As far as I know, also from frequent visits in the former GDR (DDR), Gastarbeiter from Poland had full freedom of movement, lived in no worse conditions than Germans and frequently lived in GDR with their families. Anyway, in the 1970s the border between GDR and Poland was open, so Poles could freely move around East Germany and citizens of GDR could freely move around Poland. So please correct these mistakes in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.207.113.61 (talk) 13:35, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Did it?
"the government and others in society ignored the integration of the migrants. This led to educational, religious and social discrimination of the migrants in Germany."

So, if I went to Turkey to work on a visa granted for a year, I could expect the state there to help me integrate and not discriminate against me educationally, religiously and socially? Is it the fault of the Germans that these people brought their families, rather than returning home as was the original agreement?

What precisely do you mean by discriminating against them religiously? Were they forbidden to practise their religion? Were they subject to the same kind of restraints that for example Christians would be if they went to live in a Muslim-dominated country?

Can I go to one of the Eastern countries with a large number of people from my country and demand that they provide me with services in my native language? Should I demand that we be given grants for social and cultural activities?

194.46.227.233 17:48, 20 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I have added something on claims of religious discrimination. Would like if you tell me if it is too much...-- Greatgreenwhale (talk) 18:16, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

You might want to take into account that the term was not only used in Germany, but also both in Austria and Switzerland, who also had according "programmes". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.245.114 (talk) 20:24, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

This article is completely riddled with factual errors that belie a strong left-wing ideological bias: --Turks were not "ordered" to go to West Germany, they waited in line for the chance for a better-paying job. --families were not reunited due to pressure after workers became dissatisfied wtih poor working conditions. This family reunification policy came much later--in the 1970s. --the idea that only the West Germans expected the Turks to return home is false. Countless studies have shown that the Turks also thought they were coming for a short time. They sent money back home to build homes there--because that was their home. They did not intend to sink down roots in West Germany. This is true even after many married or brought over family members. I could go on and on. Someone should rewrite this who doesn't have an axe to grind and who can use citations. In the meantime, I request that the administrator label this site as controversial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ratislov (talk • contribs) 08:12, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * They were not discriminated meaning badly treated. They were treated as not immigrants but guest workers. Thus for instance, there was no purpose to teach their children extra German lessons at school. The purpose was, if it could be achieved, to teach them extra Italian, Turkish, Greek lessons. This was even the tenor of a education-ministerial flyer I know of of as late as the late 1990s, but then bureaucracy works slowly...--91.34.247.236 (talk) 10:17, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Anti-German sentiment
As an Eurasian-German person I really think this article unfortunately is full of anti-German sentiment. It makes statements like "Following the fall of the Berlin Wall and German reunification in 1990, the population of guest-workers still remaining in the former East Germany faced deportation, premature discontinuation of residence and work permits as well as open discrimination in the workplace. Out of the 100,000 guest-workers remaining in East Germany after reunification, about 75% left because of the rising tide of xenophobia in former East German territories." Any person who faces "open discrimination in the workplace" may sue, because Germanys has laws against discrimination. I also wonder if there is any source for the statement that "about 75% left because of the rising tide of xenophobia in former East German territories" While there definetly is xenophobia in Germany, I do not think it is worse than xenophobia in any other country.-- Greatgreenwhale (talk) 16:53, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

==Decades of german migration politics and some flaws==

The article is very poor in the history of the migration politics in Germany for the last 20 - 30 years.

A minor flaw is on the real politics on german citizen laws.

Unlike the laws in the USA. German citizenship was never given to children born in Germany.

For decades only very few migrants asked for german citizenship.

Fortunatly a High Court (Bundesverfassungsgericht) effective from 1975/1953 on equal rights of married wemens ond citizenship solved the problem partly. A high percentage of all migrant children were born with a german mother or father and were born as german citizens. These children are a part of society and even the political system.

But Turks and some other groups did not mix mit Germans.

In 1998 the new red-green government began to solve the problem.

They added a new section to the law. The big majority of cildren from foreign parents in Germany got a german citizenship by birth. Unfortunatly the government need a majority in the second chamber(Bundesrat) and "dual citizenship" for birth im Germany was limited for some children.

1.)All children from stateless parents(=in practize Palsastinians and... ) become Germans. 2.)All cildren from some friendly allies(EU etc.) become Germans. 3.)All children from other countries (In practize Turks and...) become Germans until they were forced to give up one of their citizenships. 4.)But some children become Germans and were not forced...

This law began to work since 1990 and for some younger children if their parents pay a high fee.

The present government will change the law that children born in Germany and raised up here can keep their foreign citizenship.

That is very strange...

But the turkish situation is much more stranger!!!

Religion and real nationality has a high impact on integration-

All Turks are Turks and Muslim.

But Turks in Germany and Austria...

Only a few migrants from Turky were Christians or Jews. They picked up german citizenship at the first possible moment.

Only a few Turks were Arabs and Alawi.(Fans pf Mr. Assad senior...) asked for german citizenship before the Christian asked. They perfom very well. To meet them drink some beers in a american jazz bar in Germany...

Jezids/Jesids Yazidis were a non-muslim and non-christian minority in Turkey. All of them are Kurds. Now they were killed or expelled.

Now about 100.000 live in Germany. They perform much better than the Christians. The 22 years old Miss Uca was for then years one of 99 persons representing Germany in the European Parliament...

The largest minority religion in Turkey is Alevism. They count for about 20%. But about 40% of all mirgants are Alevi. Only very few asked for German citizenship. But after the massacre of Sivas in 1992 they asked and asked and asked... (They got it and perform very well. The young female Ekin Deligöz is of Turkish origin and the granddaughter of a female Alevi Priest and a member of federal parliament. She was not allone and now...

BTW: The famous Cem Özdemir is born as Turk and Muslim, but is the only MP with an academic grade from a very small christian university and with tscherkasian orgin.

Religion teaching in german schools are a little bit more complicate.

There are 16 german states. They have different laws abot relgion in schools-

Religion is teached by german teachers paid by the states and approved by either the cathikic or protenstant church. There are no 100% teachers for religion.

The state approved them for teaching German and Religion or Math and Religion etc. If the church is againt their teaching of the religion of the church they keep their job in the scholl teaching only German or Math.

To teach Muslim Religion they need a apptoval by a muslim church. But where is the muslim church?

The Alevi founded a muslim church for muslim relgion, but some of them believe that they live now in a free country and are not muslm. (In Turkey the are all muslims, but are not a legal relegion...) 10 german states recognized the german alevi AABF as partner for teaching religion. (Other states do not teach relgion or have not enough migrants...)

Now they wait for getting the official status of the christian churches. (Körperschaft öffentlichen Rechts.) Their austrian brancgh has gained this status by a court decission some months ago.)

All the other muslims in Germany have to create muslim churches. The german states work heavy on creating muslim religion in their state or selecting good muslim churches for these people.

Teaching religion has to be done in german language, but the bigger muslim churches are still "foreign churches".

The turkish state runs a german branch of his state agency for religion.

Some muslim "churches" even have criminal records and/or regarded as being hostile to the german constitution.

Many migrants believe that these "churches" are involved in the killing of family members.

Ask the website of the AABF or follow the information on the swiss EZW (Evangelische Zentralstelle für Weltanschauungsfragen) or rhe CAFCDU (christians and Alevis in the CDU). Some muslim media (dtj-online) even try to tell us, that the forbidden terrorist PKK had infiltrateds the CDU. Others are angry about the infiltration of SPD and CDU by the facist turkish Grey Wulfs.

BTW: My president Joachim Gauck attended on 21 march 2014 the Newroz Event ate AABF. (Joachim was a formrer protestand reverend in the G"D"R.)

It is a high controversial subject in Germany and Austria et, and you should now that all information written in english language is very poor because the migrant population from Turkey in USA or England in near zero. Only Germans and Austrians can sit as delegate in the caucus and decide which migrant with wich background is a good candidate for the party.

In the upcomming local election I am one the some percent voters with the "opportunity" to vote for a very right wing muslim. And many towns and counties will "gain" some politicians from a nazistyle "anti-muslim" party. (We have a strict proportional vote in local elections and for the constituancy Germany to the Eiropean Parliament. We have 96 Mebers of EP here and any vote between 0.5% and 1-0% can bring the first seat to party list i do not like.

91.204.5.250 (talk) 03:39, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Political context
I removed: "In political discourse, the term has also become loaded, having been used sometimes by right-wing extremists in conjunction with the demand to expel foreigners and their children.". A lot of people call themselves or their parents Gastarbeiter see: http://www.spiegel.de/unispiegel/studium/0,1518,506940,00.html-- Greatgreenwhale (talk) 16:45, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Changes
I changed "The generation born in Germany attended German schools, but had a poor command of either German or Turkish" to "but some had a poor command of either German or Turkish". I actually have not read the original source for that sentence, but I think it is highly unlikely that a scientific text states that "the" Turkish (every single one of them) speaks neither Turkish nor German. A number of Turkish may have poor command of both languages. The number may be high or low, but "the Turkish" means every single one of them and that is definetly not true.-- Greatgreenwhale (talk) 16:00, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

not just turkey
the Federal Republic of Germany had guestworker agreements with Italy, Greece, Turkey, Morocco, Portugal, Tunisia and Yugoslavia - yet there are several parts that only talk about turkey/turkish guestworkers (including the map)178.210.114.106 (talk) 12:10, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree and changed the picture which now shows the recruitment of Irish guest workers.--Charlene1989 (talk) 19:10, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Berlin Wall
Near the top of the article, it says, "The labour shortage was made more acute by the creation of the Berlin Wall in August 1961, which reduced the large-scale flow of East German immigration virtually to zero overnight." This seems to be referring to a labor shortage in West Germany. Then further down it says, "East Germany faced an acute labour shortage, mainly because of East Germans fleeing into the western zones occupied by the Allies; the building of the Berlin Wall (1961) exacerbated the labour shortage." This seems to be talking about East Germany.

How could the Berlin Wall worsen a labor shortage on *both* sides of the Wall? Is one of these two statements a misinterpretation of some source(s)? Mcswell (talk) 22:13, 11 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I removed the unsourced bit about the wall from the GDR section. Less labourers were able to flee because of the wall.--Charlene1989 (talk) 19:02, 21 March 2014 (UTC)


 * In fact there was an inflow of East Germans which abruptly stopped in 1961. Of course afterwards there was the occasional flight and also the occasional allowed Ausreise in growing numbers (especially after 1975 when the GDR had to print the OSCE protocols in their newspapers, thus making it known to the public that their government itself had in principle signed an acknowledgment of a right to emigrate - after years of waiting for approval and of discrimination of course), but they would not have any-more any significant effect to the workforce. The GDR was well-known for allowing with, comparatively little difficulties, old-age pensionists to go abroad, but not those of lesser age.--2001:A60:15BB:9501:E911:992F:42AB:111A (talk) 21:09, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Some belated thanks
to the user who corrected one specific passage, which I just happened to stumble over in an old version. I mean that nonsense about the "interracial Spanish-German marriage". If we want to use the term "race" at all (some don't like to, but, for protocol, I mean that heritable features in looks for which the word seems the shortest abbreviator), Spanishmen and Germans belong to the same race, commonly called the whites or the europides. As do the Irish and the Italians. I wonder why I added that ;-) --2001:A60:154E:4901:D57A:8F60:8E4B:201B (talk) 23:15, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

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Sweetening history
I'm intrigued at how the article now represents the term "gastarbeiter" as a quaint term used in the past but everything's all good now ho-hum. Is this because the article's referenced sources have whitewashed history, and so the article merely reflects that omission of half a century of momentary friction? "Gastarbeiter, as a historical term however, ..., is neutral ..." Not in my experience of that time, where it approached "wetback" in vehemence.

It is perhaps not so much a re-writing of history, as an agreement that we'll just not talk about certain bad parts of history? How nice. Shenme (talk) 01:02, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Badly written article
This article needs to be labelled as not meeting Wikipedia's standards. Too many things wrong with it. The timeline is all over the place, the style is not encyclopedic and the choice of wording and phrasing is poor. 62.228.228.201 (talk) 09:52, 13 March 2022 (UTC)