Talk:Gautam Brahmin/Archive 1

Gautam = gaur brahmans?- Gautam gotra is not to be confused with Gautam surname, they are different. Gautam surname is a subgroup usually belonging to larger Atri gotra.

not all gautam brahmans are gaur brahmans... gautam gotra is not restricted to merely gaurs... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aditya Gautam (talk • contribs) 13:11, 15 May 2009 (UTC) - Gautam is the title (surname, last name) only and not gotra in Nepal, Darjeeling, Sikkim & Bhutan. All Gautam come under Atree/Atri gotra. Nepali(Gorkha) Gautam is not restricted to Brahmins, many Kshatriyas and dalits also belong to Gautam family. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.201.113.11 (talk) 10:44, 9 November 2009 (UTC) -

Reverting due to severe vandalism - I, Lomash_g created this article on June 21, 2006 to cater the information for the Gautam Hindu Brahmin community only, keeping in mind the Wikipedia principles that contributors would edit, use or modify the content of the article limited to the context of the Hindu Brahmin community in a balanced and impartial manner presenting each piece of information with possible verifiable accuracy and in context. The article is not a forum to provide information for all communities. I left Wikipedia because of my obligations with other projects. After a long gap I came back to Wikipedia and felt sorry to see that the original content of the article was instead vandalized many times to misrepresent the information and deviate from the context with a malicious mischief. Any further disruptive editing may lead to further action. Lomash_g (Lomasha) Lomasha (talk) 15:45, 5 May 2012 (UTC)


 * While the additions to the article are unsourced, nothing jumps out at me to say the edits were made in bad faith. —C.Fred (talk) 15:56, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

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Whether vandalized or not!
Hi Fred,

I doubt the second part of your statement, i.e., “- - - nothing jumps out at me to say the edits were made in bad faith.”

First I would like to mention that I don’t believe in encouraging any sort of prejudices on the basis of race, region, religion, community or caste. But it doesn’t mean that the people start taking advantage and tampering with the theme or purpose of the article.

This article was created to cater the information for the Gautam Hindu Brahmins only. Brahmins is a caste (i.e., a group of people) in India.

A Hindu Brahmin identifies himself with the full affiliation of (1) Gotra, (2) Pravara, (3) Sûtra, and (4) Shākha [1]. There are over 2,000 sub-castes (or sub-groups) of Brahmins in India [2] [3]. The sub-groups and sub-castes of Brahmins are generally grouped on the basis of either their affiliation or the geographical regions they are located [4].

As I have mentioned in your talk page, the name “Gautam” was sought as a generic name by several great and renowned rishis in the lineage of rishi Gautam during Vedic age [5] and also by many renowned persons in later & post-Vedic age, such as Akṣapāda, Siddhartha (of Buddhism), Indrabhuti (of Jainism) etc.

The current naming practices in India can be traced to the massive advent of European in India during the 18th century [6]. Since the intractability of the Indian naming methods and their meanings confounded the Europeans, they supposedly introduced the naming method, of having first name, middle name, and surname in their urge to influence, modernize and develop the Indian system accordingly [6]. Many persons (some belong to Brahmins caste and some hail from non-Brahmins castes) have thence started having the name “Gautam” as their first name or the surname for one or the other reasons, particularly since the beginning of 20th century.

Some of the Hindu Brahmins residing in various regions of India, who used to address themselves with generic Hindu Brahmin surnames, such as Sharma, Mishra, etc., have also started assuming the surname “Gautam” mainly because of their affiliation either with Gautam gotra and/or with Gautam dharamasûtra. So Gautam Brahmins are those Hindu Brahmins, who affiliate either with Gautam gotra and/or with Gautam dharamasûtra.

At the time of reversion of the article to its nearest reasonably correct form, its first line was: Gautam Brahmins (Devnagari: गौतम) comprise a sub-caste of Brahmins and Kshatriyas in India, Nepal and Bhutan and belong to Khas group of people.

For your information, Kshatriyas (or Rajputs) is another caste and Khas is an ethnic group of tribes in India. Then all of a sudden somebody in between starts a family drama.

If somebody knows the concept of castes in India, how can he write such a sentence -

- - - (say, a subgroup of Brahmins) Brahmins comprise a sub-caste of Brahmins and Kshatriyas - - -

Examples: It’s just like if somebody tampers with the article on say, Celt:

The original (from Wikipedia): The Celts or Kelts were an Indo-European and ethno-linguistically diverse group of tribal societies in Iron Age and Roman-era Europe who spoke Celtic languages.

Tampered: The Celts or Kelts were an Indo-European and Sami people, who are ethno-linguistically diverse group of tribal societies in Iron Age and Roman-era Europe who spoke Celtic and Sami languages.

If somebody were really interested in providing some pieces of information on, say, Gautam Rajput or Khas people, they would have contributed in the respective pages. There is an article under the “Gotama” disambiguation named, “Gautam Rajputs” in Wikipedia, which transmits information for Khastriyas (or Rajputs). There is another article named, “Khas People” in Wikipedia, which provides information for Khas people.

So in order to truly understand the motive and the essence of an article related to any cultural, religious or social institution and/or community, one must read and understand the article from the perspective of the context. Then only a true distinction can be made whether there has been any intentional or unintentional fiddling done with the original article.

Secondly, the vandalism can also be figured out if editing/deletion has been done from a wide range of unregistered accounts/IPs.

I have mentioned in my talk pages that I have rejoined Wikipedia after a long gap. I have done a lot of research and prepared a detailed article with very good refrences related to this topic and would like to contribute it to the Wikipedia. Earlier I had to leave the article just after creating it and I have seen the outcome – how badly it has been vandalized sequentially.

But I am afraid that an administrator’s contentedness by showing an attitude that, “- - - nothing jumps out at me to say the edits were made in bad faith”,  may encourage the vandals to continue with their machinations.

References: [1] Brough, John. Early Brahmanical system of gotra and pravara: A translation of the Gotra-pravara-manjari of Purusottama-Pandita. University Press, Oxford, 1953]; [2] Sherring, Matthew Atmore. Hindu tribes and castes. Trubner and Co., Ludgate Hill., London, 1872 (Reverand M.A. Sherring in 1860 compiled around 2,000 Brahmins’ sub-groups and sub-castes. He considered the list incomplete); [3] Nand, Sucha and Rai, Jagdish. A History of the Brahmins, Volume 1 and 2. Lulu.com, August 2011]; [4] Ketkar, Shridhar Venkatesh The history of caste in India: Evidence of the laws of Manu on the social conditions in India during the third century A. D. Taylor & Carpenter, 1911; [5] Gotras, http://www.salagram.net/Gotras.html. (The article was taken from http://www.ibiblio.org/sripedia/srirangasri/archives/srsvol/threads.html, Sri Ranga Sri archives with permission of Anbil Ramaswamy and was based on the monograph of Mahaamah Opaadhyaaya Sri Srivatsaankaachaar Swami, Head of Dept. French Indolgical Research Institute, Pondicherry and “MaharishigaL Charitram” by Mimamsa SirOmaNi Mimamsa Vidvan Mimamsa Kovida, Ubhaya Mimamsa Saaragjna, Veda Vedanta ChooDaamaNi Sri N.S. Devanathachariar, referred by Sri Srivatsankachariar Swami); [6] Narayanan, Srinivas. The Necessity of Naming: Or What's in A Name: or Rainy Days or An Inquiry Into The Origins of Indian Naming Systems: Or An Empty Mind Is A Devil's Workshop: Or Some Other Catchy Interesting Erudite Title Yet (SOCIETY). http://www.icsi.berkeley.edu/~snarayan/names;

Lomash_g LomashaLomasha (talk) 07:39, 9 May 2012 (UTC) -