Talk:Gavin de Becker

Why is this guy taken seriously?
I see no credentials other than he worked with certain agencies and has a consulting company - where did he acquire the skills for which he is being paid as a consultant? The only thing I can see is that he is an author and has compiled a certain expertise from researching his books. That isn't the same as a police or military background, which is what one would expect.

Engineer?
I am not sure that this guy is an engineer. As far as I know, he did not creat the system from an engineering standpoint, but rather the conceptual base. Isaac Crumm 01:41, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

advertisement?
I am anonymous, but doesn't this sound a little like a book-jacket blurb? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.176.211.2 (talk) 21:04, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Definitely sounds to me like the de Becker, or someone working for him, wrote this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Labradane (talk • contribs) 09:42, 22 June 2009 (UTC)


 * This whole article reads like an advertisement and should be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.16.12.231 (talk) 19:16, 13 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I did look for Gavin de Becker and his work as his work also is mentioned in Sweden. I have read his book "The gift of Fear" and i belive many around the world working in the area do take advise from his expertise. I saw this WP-article since I liked to advice another man working in the same area but in Europe. So please dont deleate this article.--IP7869 (talk) 20:57, 20 June 2014 (UTC)


 * I reviewed the page and it's full of citations which I checked and are all accurate. Also there's multiple contributors to the article.  Seems like there's been many additions since the COI was alerted in 2008; therefore, I am removing now. --Hollywoodd (talk) 01:35, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

User:Hollywoodd
Hi! What's sparked your interest in making additions and changes to the Gavin de Becker and The Gift of Fear articles? Regards, —Unforgettableid (talk) 05:13, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Gavin de Becker's Family Background Needs To Be Added
Gavin de Becker had an abusive, mentally ill mother, who threatened his life numerous times when he was growing up. A shocking, but revealing, segment of his book THE GIFT OF FEAR comes from his description of a typical scene with his insane mother. As a child, he had to learn how to calmly defuse her rage and confusion-- sometimes as she pointed a gun at him. There's little question that these experiences must have powerfully affected not only his personality, but his choice of career. The information belongs in the article. 23.121.115.9 (talk) 16:31, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Academic credentials
None listed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.241.128.77 (talk) 23:42, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Appeared on Joe Rogan Experience
https://open.spotify.com/episode/3rAa8cJGt5cDSu71y9YC2A?si=97b9b65d2fb341bd He talked about his past. Also, after 55:00, he starts sharing lots of (to me, questionable) theories about government, media, and pharmaceutical companies related to Covid. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EditingInSchool (talk • contribs) 03:04, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Wrong Arthur Richard Jackson Linked?
The man linked died well before the incident, and lived on the other side of the world 2600:1008:B14F:3B62:9592:B99C:3521:FD48 (talk) 13:06, 28 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Good catch! Feel free to make the edit next time :) Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 13:34, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Inclusion of individual published articles
Hi @Crimestudyer, I believe this is the appropriate place to have the discussion we are having about the articles you wish to add to this page. I don't think it's standard to add a listing of all, or even several, published articles by a writer on their Wikipedia page, unless those articles have some prominence. What are your thoughts on this? Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 02:51, 1 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The purpose of the text I added is showing he's contributed to the Huffington Post. I do think that's a notable aspect in someone's background.  And I provided some of his most notable articles as citations.  I did not provide all.  I see it written on many Wiki pages for other Huffington Post contributors (see Kathy Freston and David de Rothschild as examples).  If being a Huffington Post contributor isn't notable, it should be removed from all the other profiles as well. Crimestudyer (talk) 03:11, 1 June 2023 (UTC)


 * It seems to me that including only some of his articles under the Writing section would be somewhat random, and including them all could get exhaustive. How about just mentioning that he has written for HuffPost within the article, and using 1–3 of his articles as references? Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 03:34, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
 * That's exactly what I did. I included he's written for HuffPost and included 3 articles as references.  De Becker had not engaged in much political discourse, always writing and doing speeches and TV about fear and violence.  Those public articles were a departure in that he spoke about the bigger misuses of fear (in war and politics).  Those articles explore the use of fear in politics and diplomacy (Secretary State John Kerry and Candidate Clinton).  His public writings are part of who he is which Wiki readers should see. Crimestudyer (talk) 03:42, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Glad we could come to an agreement! Thanks for your help! Crimestudyer (talk) 13:06, 1 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Fair enough, I shall restore your edit. Thanks for explaining your reasoning. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 04:57, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Billionaire
I recently added that de Becker is a billionaire to the lede and was reverted by who asked why it was important. The wealth of a notable person is always relevant when covered by reliable sources. It puts into context the scale of his work as well as his financial success. It's encyclopedic content that readers want to know about. –– Formal Dude  (talk)  03:36, 8 August 2023 (UTC)


 * @ Formal Dude, I don't wish to dispute with you unnecessarily, but can you provide relevant examples of other billionaires whose wealth is mentioned in their respective lead paragraphs? Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 03:56, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Sure. Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos. –– Formal Dude  (talk)  04:00, 8 August 2023 (UTC)


 * @ Formal Dude, fair enough, then I shall reinstate your edit. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 04:03, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. –– Formal Dude  (talk)  04:27, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

The cited article doesn't actually call him a billionaire. --97.113.133.9 (talk) 06:22, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I see you are correct. Thanks for pointing it out! Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 14:36, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Additions
Hi @Revirvlkodlaku

I finally have some free time and was looking forward to making some of the additions noted in the Talk page here. In order to add, I need to delete and move things around. Unfortunately, I can't do it all in one day. Could you give me time before you just delete everything? I'm sure you might have edits after, but my intention is updating this with new content. Crimestudyer (talk) 04:23, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi @Crimestudyer, I believe you have good intentions. As a compromise, instead of adding content and looking for references later, could you instead add the content piecemeal, making sure everything is properly referenced before publishing? Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 04:27, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi @Revirvlkodlaku, I tried following your directions here and included a properly cited addition which absolutely seems relevant to me. Joe Rogan's podcast is one of the most popular podcasts in the world, and when Joe asked Mr. de Becker how his career started, his response was from that essay. Can you please let me know how it is not relevant to Mr. de Becker? I'm following your direction and piecemealing the additions, so I want to be sure before I spend the time on additions and citations. Crimestudyer (talk) 02:34, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi @Crimestudyer, you are right, the Joe Rogan podcast is actually the most popular podcast in the world, as far as I know. I just don't think the content you were adding is all that important. It just says that he wrote a paper and that it was picked up by police departments....but what did they do with it after that? What, if any, influence did it have? Why do you think it's important to mention? Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 15:26, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
 * You're being very selective with your wording. The article was written when he was 21 years old and it was written on a topic that wasn't very written about then, as Mr. de Becker explained on the podcast. And it was picked up by the Department of Justice's National Criminal Justice Center, which is available to every police department in the United States. At 21 years old, that is unheard of. He was literally asked by Mr. Rogan, how did you start your career, and that article was how he began the answer. That article gave him the notoriety and people understood he knew what he was talking about with public figure protection, which led into the presidential appointments. Crimestudyer (talk) 20:05, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Hmm, those are fair points, and perhaps you're right 🧐 Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 11:54, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

How can the reference meet BLPRS? --Hipal (talk) 20:56, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Advertisement
@hipal, which parts do you feel are written like an advertisement? Regarding the citations, almost all appear to be articles and books. Hollywoodd (talk) 05:37, 9 March 2024 (UTC)


 * @Revirvlkodlaku & @crimestudyer, you both look active on this page. Any thoughts on whether this reads like an advertisement, which parts, if any, need to be edited? Hollywoodd (talk) 16:57, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
 * @Hipal, @Revirvlkodlaku, @Crimestudyer. Sorry, didn't do proper @. Hollywoodd (talk) 20:23, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
 * @Hollywoodd the article doesn't strike me as being written like an advertisement, so I'd be ok removing the tag. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 19:46, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Your comment appears to ignore the actual efforts to improve this article. Please address the concerns below. Once we address these very basic policy issues (RS, V, BLPRS), we can dig into the more difficult policies. --Hipal (talk) 20:37, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Remove all the poor references, insure that everything is properly referenced, then let's take a closer look. --Hipal (talk) 02:10, 12 March 2024 (UTC)


 * I just went through it all and updated. All are properly referenced now, and all are reliable. Hollywoodd (talk) 13:18, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * No you did not.
 * I've removed the poor, promotional source.
 * I suggest you review WP:RSP and WP:BLPRS, then go through the references again. If you are unsure about a reference, identify it here.
 * Also, the references need full citation information. --Hipal (talk) 18:20, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I've reviewed both, thank you. Can you provide some examples of poorly referenced portions of the page? Hollywoodd (talk) 03:25, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 * --Hipal (talk) 16:24, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for including a link to the complete revision history. What, specifically, is poorly referenced? Hollywoodd (talk) 16:29, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

. --Hipal (talk) 16:44, 13 March 2024 (UTC)


 * You removed that and other edits and removals were done. Multiple here feel it is not written like an advertisement. Please feel free to discuss here if you feel it continues to be written like an ad. For now, I will remove as it has been addressed. Hollywoodd (talk) 12:08, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I am an uninvolved editor and I have reinstated the ad tag. This entire page reads like an advertisement. Good day— RetroCosmos talk 17:52, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * has worked for governments, large corporations, and public figures sounds like something someone would post on linkedin.
 * his books have been published in twenty-five languages there are much more accomplished authors who do not have this in their lead.
 * This was picked up by the Department of Justice's National Criminal Justice Center and made available to every police department in the United States. my facebook posts are also made available to every police department in the united states.
 * He also provided his services to celebrities like I think the intended purpose of this sentence is clear to anyone who reads it.
 * In 1999–2000, he assisted the United States Secret Service this makes his role seem much more important than it actually was.
 * So today I ask you what Unforgettableid asked you 6 years ago, which went unanswered. What's sparked your interest in making additions and changes to the Gavin de Becker and The Gift of Fear articles?? Good day— RetroCosmos talk 18:06, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi @RetroCosmos! Sorry, I missed the question six year ago! I'm a big fan of Mr. de Becker's book, The Gift of Fear. As you can see, I started this thread to ask others what read like an advertisement. I don't have a ton of experience on Wikipedia. Appreciate what you provided. Hollywoodd (talk) 12:18, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
 * great to hear. I have no further comment on this, i leave this to another editor to review. Good day— RetroCosmos talk 17:14, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Multiple here feel it is not written like an advertisement. Consensus is not a vote, and consensus should be based upon existing policy. I've asked for the article to be reviewed, and editors have said they've done so. I've demonstrated those reviews have been, at the very best, incomplete. Until editors can do better in their reviews of this article, the tag should stay, perhaps more should be added. --Hipal (talk) 18:07, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

articles by de Becker
Including articles he's written is part of the problem. --Hipal (talk) 18:24, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Hipal, please do better than simply state something to be the case. You are engaged in an edit war with me over the inclusion of articles De Becker has published, without having properly explained why you believe they should not be mentioned. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 02:57, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Please don't misrepresent the situation.
 * What needs explanation of what I've written?  --Hipal (talk) 16:13, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Hipal what have I misrepresented? I'm telling you that you can't simply state that something is promotional and then edit war with other users who disagree. If you can't provide a more solid justification, you need to desist in your aggressive editing and try to seek consensus. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 16:52, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I believe you are continuing to misrepresent the situation when you write, you can't simply state that something is promotional. I provided two diffs that show that I did otherwise.
 * I suggest you follow your own advice and BLP by explaining why the content should be included based upon our content policies. Or you can address my question. Or you can address my comments and edit summaries about the content. --Hipal (talk) 17:42, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Hipal I have done all of the above: each time I've reverted your edit, I've provided an explanation. Mentioning and linking material published by the subject of an article isn't against any WP policy, as far as I'm aware, and it seems to me that the onus is on you to show otherwise. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 04:27, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

isn't against any WP policy, as far as I'm aware Those policies are BLP, NOT, and POV. I mentioned PROMO in my second edit summary. I had hoped that an experienced editor like yourself would be familiar with WP:IS and would recognize that I was referring to it in both my edit summaries.

Note that when dealing with a BLP, the onus is on those seeking inclusion. --Hipal (talk) 17:53, 30 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Hipal, I'm not convinced by your argument. HuffPo is an independent source, so it's not clear to me what you're arguing against. I'm going to restore the content, as I don't feel you have sufficiently supported your position on its removal. Please seek 3O if you disagree. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 00:09, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Your not understanding policy doesn't give you an excuse to violate them. The burden is on those seeking inclusion.
 * Yes, he didn't publish the articles himself, but he wrote them. --Hipal (talk) 16:32, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

3O Response: This career section is already overly long, are the four op-eds de Becker wrote for Huffington Post notable enough to justify inclusion? I would lean no, unless these op-eds received outside coverage to make them notable. The career section should outline the major parts of his career. I'm not convinced these op-eds fall into that category. I hope this helps. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 18:36, 1 May 2024 (UTC)