Talk:Gay-for-pay/Archive 1

Is Latino Fan Club a good example?
This is a curious example:
 * A popular example of this phenomenon is the "Latino Fan Club", a film production company which specializes in producing amateur gay pornographic films in which pornographic actors who are billed as "Straight Latino Street Thugs" appear to reluctantly have sex with one another (but are almost certainly actually bisexual or gay). 

If the actors are indeed gay or at least bisexual, then surely this is not an example of gay-for-pay. Just because they are playing roles in which they act as reluctant straight guys does not alter the fact that they are actually gay guys performing in gay porn. JackofOz 08:29, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Read the sentence preceding that paragraph. 149.43.x.x 04:28, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

What about "Bait Bus" instead? Same basic idea. Also see Bangbus, a heterosexual porn site with a similar variant. --Vittlebog 06:07, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Original research?
While I'm familiar with the term, I'm skeptical about some of the claims in the article. It needs some citations and some rewriting. 19:31, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. This is somewhat controversial subject and has no citations. It is a very notable topic in the gay community and expansion is important. PsYoP78 14:43, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * How do you get citations for an almost entirely word-of-mouth phenomenon? The very fact of its unverifiability represents how attractive the subject is, both for those fantasising about the actors, and for the (straight-identified or straight-acting) actors themselves.
 * Nuttyskin 04:24, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * That's as maybe, but you simply can't put stuff in wikipedia that's not sourced. A lot of the comment in this article reads like the author speculating. Jim whitson 06:57, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Naw, there's a significant number of moderately reputable sources on this subject. I haven't had time to pull anything yet, but I will unless someone beats me to the punch. One source: Speeding by rex.PsYoP78 14:57, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Suggestions/notes for further edits
Agree with previous comment by PsYoP78: Gay for pay article is unsatisfying.

There are several variations as to how this term is used in the gay community. Don't have time to track down sources now, but further edits should incorporate the strong and weak levels of application of the concept:

Weak application (and usually done with a camp sensibility):
 * An (heterosexual) actor or actress who plays a gay male, lesbian, or transgendered character in movies, television shows, or theatre. This would apply to actors such as Hilary Swank (in Boys Don't Cry), Eric McCormack (in Will and Grace), Matt Damon (in The Talented Mr. Ripley), Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal (in Brokeback Mountain), Judy Davis (in Serving in Silence), and Charlize Theron (in Monster).  In this sense, the "gay" part comes from the identity of the characters they play, rather than any explicit sexual act that the actors perform.  Usually, the big "gay" scene involves a lip-on-lip kissing (most of the time) or an implied simulated sexual coupling (rare).  Up until the early 1990s when Tom Hanks played a gay character suffering from AIDS in Philadelphia, most Hollywood actors avoided playing homosexual or transgendered characters for fear of being identified too closely with the characters they played. (Some of their British counterparts, of course, have been "playing gay" for at least a decade; e.g., Daniel Day-Lewis, Rupert Graves, and Jeremy Irons).  Some in the gay community often criticized Hollywood actors and film studios for "whitewashing" the gayness of some gay characters.  Will Smith, for example, was criticized for famously refusing to do any kissing scene when he played a gay character in Six Degrees of Separation. Likewise, the gay community reacted unfavorably to the "lack of gayness" in the character that Russell Crowe played in A Beautiful Mind. (To be fair to Crowe, he has previously played another gay character in an earlier film: The Sum of Us.)  Nowadays, "playing gay" (usually for lower pay) in Indie films  has become an opportunity for Hollywood actors to showoff their gravitas.


 * Amazon's Listmania! has this topic:
 * Gay For Pay, Straight Actors In Gay Roles & Why We Love Them
 * Movies/TV series listed and heterosexual actors/actresses who played gay characters in them: (some details added&mdash;cast and full movie title&mdash;that aren't in list there)
 * * The Birdcage, Robin Williams
 * * Home for the Holidays, Robert Downey, Jr.
 * * To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything, Julie Newmar, Patrick Swayze, John Leguizamo, and Wesley Snipes
 * * The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, Guy Pearce, Terence Stamp, Hugo Weaving
 * * Torch Song Trilogy, Matthew Broderick
 * * Jeffrey, Steven Weber, Michael T. Weiss
 * * The Broken Hearts Club, Dean Cain
 * * In & Out, Tom Selleck, Kevin Kline
 * * Queer as Folk, Gale Harold, Chris Potter. Actually, I can't find any evidence that any of the cast members on this show who play gay characters are gay themselves.
 * * Deathtrap, Michael Caine, Christopher Reeve
 * * Twilight of the Golds, Brendan Fraser
 * * Making Love, Michael Ontkean, Harry Hamlin
 * * Victor/Victoria, Alex Karras, Robert Preston
 * * The Hunger, Catherine Deneuve, Susan Sarandon
 * I don't know how strong a source this list would be considered to be; all of the films listed (and the one TV series) do have gay characters portrayed by heterosexual actors/actresses, but these lists are compiled by Amazon users who don't necessarily have professional credentials.
 * &mdash; Chidom   talk   21:30, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Strong application (as it involves actual sexual contact (beyond kissing) or an unambiguous sexual context):
 * In gay pornographic movies, actors who identify themselves as heterosexual, but who nevertheless perform explicit sexual acts with other males on film (see Ryan Idol, Mike Branson, Jeff Stryker, etc.). These actors usually play the "top" roles, but this is not always the case (see Kristen Bjorn bio and some articles of Bel Ami models).  Why would a straight-identified male actor have sex with another male on film?  Most male pornographic actors are paid much lower than their female counterparts in straight porn.  Male porn actors, however, get paid more, on the average, in gay porn than in straight porn.  There are also more opportunities to become a "star" in gay porn than in straight porn where the obvious focus of attention are the actresses.  As a response to criticism in the gay community, some of these actors (perhaps with the advice of their publicists) would sometimes claim that they are in fact bisexual.  Whether they are in fact gay or not is not important; these actor are indeed "gay" for the money.  Gay Erotic Index claims that it was only in the early 1980s that gay for pay actors began appearing in male-on-male films.  (One should also note that female-on-female sex in straight porn does not usually carry the same level of stigma as male gay-for-pay sex.  Hence, I'm not sure whether lesbian sex in a straight film can even be considered as "gay-for-pay" performance.)


 * In the sexual work industry, the term may also be applied to straight-identified male prostitutes (or "male escorts") who have sexual contact with male clients. Although sexual contact is often involved, actual sexual contact may not be necessary.  Sexual arousal without direct sexual contact may occur in such niche trade like muscle worship  (see Dan Savage's Skipping Towards Gomorrah for a serious, but humorous, discussion of muscle worship).  As in porn work, a gay-identity is not necessary to make money off a gay client/consumer.  Mtparnas 05:41, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Mark Dalton
It looks like the link to Mark Dalton is not corect:

Original research
Where is it in this article?? If you can find it, please let me know! --SunStar Net 11:20, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I Agree
This entry is kind of shoddy and could really be turned into something much better like the above poster has started. Starting with that information I would go with information about porn stars. It would be interested if people could find any information on the stars in amateurstraightguys.com or straightcollegemen.com to see if these people are actually straight or if they are just gay and acting straight. I think information on this is quite limited though and it would take an insider to get any real information.

Latino Fan Club is not a good example of gayforpay and makes me wonder if this entry is just an advertisement.

THIS ARTICLE NOT NEUTRAL
This article is too biased against the 'gay-for-pay' idea. What 'gay-for-pay' means is that someone will commit gay sex acts for pay, but is not really turned on by gay acts. This is entirely possible and the objections to it seem a bit prudish...65.81.28.227 05:31, 12 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I've removed this bit from the article:
 * Critics, however, will say that the performer chooses to have sexual relations with a person of the same sex. They are not being forced into having sexual intercourse and choose so willingly and have the right to say no to any partner that they do not want. One might say that these performers are attracted on some level to the same sex to actually go through with the act. The pay factor is just a cover to justify experimenting in same sex sexual intercourse. Many times, a performer will exaggerate the pay they received in order to make it seem more lucrative to friends and family. The pay factor can act as an excuse for their behavior similar to males who get intoxicated and have sex with males and then in the morning use the intoxication as an excuse to why they had homosexual sex.
 * The paragraph seems to be arguing that the gay-for-pay phenomenon is merely a cover for a closeted gay person. It relies on the highly dubious suggestion that anyone capable of gay sex must be gay, and makes specific claims "many times, a performer will exaggerate" that really require sourcing if they are to be defended. --Saforrest 14:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)