Talk:Gay literature/Archive 1

Authors?
I'm very confused - this is not a list of works of literature, but for the most part authors. The description does not match the content. And since there is no attempt to justify the inclusion of these authors some of them may well lead to edit wars. (E.g. are you suggsting Augustine was LGBT or that he had characters that were and if so which ones - and where? --Doc Glasgow 15:47, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your concerns. In its present form, this article is simply a very rough outline of gay literature. This article is intended to cover (or at least introduce) the wide ranging topic of LGBT lit. While it contains few works at the moment that will change. I have substituted the names of various authors in place of listing works, especially being that many individual works may not have separate articles. I realize that this list might cause problems for some, but as with this topic in other areas I imagine it will always be a source of some contention.


 * As for St. Augustine, one of those whom I imagine will be problematic, some scholars believe that he may have had relationships with other men in his young adulthood. Of course he later condemned homosexuality which also would make him important on this list. Here is a link to a source discussing Augustine's possible male/male relationships . Ganymead 20:54, 20 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure this title is appropriate at all unless the article is going to be confined to modern literature, which clearly it isn't. Exploding Boy 15:27, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)


 * What would you suggest we call it? Ganymead 17:15, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Section from article
I moved the following section here because these works and authors do not, without some explanation, work as LGBT literature. The authors are not LGBT people, the works do not discuss LGBT issues, and so on. I'm not saying they shouldn't be returned to the article, but that an explanation is absolutely needed, something along the lines of "though the term LGBT, and the group that it identifies, is historically specific, and there is considerable debate as to whether a contemporary gay/lebian/trans/etc. identity can be equated to past identities... many works have been evaluated by contemporary LGBT people in light of modern LGBT identities" or whatever. I would write it myself, but I do not think I am familiar enough with contemporary lesbian/gay/trans literary criticism.

 ==Ancient Mesopotamia==
 * The Legend of Gilgamesh and Enkidu.

Ancient Greece

 * Plato's The Symposium - a discussion of the meaning of love.
 * Sappho

Ancient Rome

 * Catullus
 * Horace

Middle Ages

 * St. Augustine
 * Aelred of Rievaulx

Renaissance

 * Shakespeare
 * Christopher Marlowe

Romanticism

 * Lord Byron

-Seth Mahoney 21:18, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

Listify?
Should we just accept that no one is going to add any content to this article and rename it List of LGBT literature or something similar? -Seth Mahoney 03:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Ganymede
Can anyone here help with the Ganymede discussion at Talk:As You Like It? AndyJones 15:25, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Contribution
I added Mary Renault to the list, because I believe that The Friendly Young Ladies, The Last of the Wine, and the Alexander trilogy are significant contributions to LGBT literature. Don't you? Firebreeze 23:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Rewrite
tagged rewrite as it's currently just a list and not encyclopedic content. EvokeNZ 08:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * What if it was changed to "list of notable LGBT authors" or "authors writing about LGBT issues," and became a table-formatted list, and had brief summaries of the LGBT content of the authors's works? Polymathematics 15:56, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * This article's current form is not acceptable, but we do not need another list. This article is meant to be an overview/analysis of the genre, in particular its history. I think the "list" began as a jumping-off point, but editors continue to add authors and title instead of actual content! I have been anxious for this article to be expanded, but unfortunately I am not knowledgable on the subject and haven't had time to do any research. I'm going to ask that this article receive special attention from the LGBT studies WikiProject, but in the meantime if anyone stumbles across anyone able to step to the challenge, please ask them. TAnthony 16:10, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Some thoughts
So this is a really bare bones page. We need a section perhaps on LGBT critical theory (Butler, Sedgewick, etc.) a section on LGBT readings of classic literature (Moby Dick, etc.) and the inclusion of lesbians on the authors list (I just added a bunch off the top of my head, come on, Michael Field, Stacy D'Erasmo, why could I only think of a few others?) We need to add a section on the importance of pulp fiction in the mid-20th century, and a few articles on the big names like Wilde and Woolf and whatnot. The part on Stonewall seems pointless---most writers were active before and after. Perhaps we could do a Early American and British LGBT list and a Contemporary American and British LGBT authors list instead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmsast (talk • contribs) 14:41, June 20, 2007

Good example for this article
African American literature is a great example of what I hope this article can become. It may take a while (and much research), but I'm hoping there are some editors out there who have the expertise/special interest to flesh out something just from personal knowledge. TAnthony 20:29, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Strong American/European slant
This article has a really strong American/European slant. For instance, the authors are broken down into Pre-Stonewall and Post-Stonewall writers. We should make an effort to be more inclusive of authors from non-English speaking countries. Queerudite 13:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd hoped to do something along these lines, but it looks as if I won't have time to do the research. I've added a list of books about the subject, and added some significant books to the author list. Perhaps these will help anyone wanting to expand it. Robina Fox 17:16, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

LGBT literature - article or disambiguation?
I've moved the list out of this article and it's now looking very empty. I was wondering if an LGBT literature article could achieve or offer anything that separate lesbian literature, gay literature, &c. couldn't (lesbian literature is already well developed). Lesbian and gay literature have different histories and culture. Is there any point on working on this article or should a useful disambiguation be created? --Oldak Quill 23:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with you Oldak. In my view, there's little content in this that could not be better described in four discrete articles with a disambiguation. Kootenayvolcano 04:57, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Bad title?
There seem to be much fewer references to "LGBT literature" than simply to "gay literature," as the previous section on this talk page from three years ago reflects. This article's opening quote is also about "gay literature." Would anyone object if I cleaned out some of the unsourced material, move sourced statements in the lesbian section to Lesbian literature, and rename the article "Gay literature"? K. the Surveyor (talk) 23:05, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Merge discussion
This article was previously moved from LGBT literature here because the article content was mostly about male homosexual literature. I propose integrating the content from several existing LGBT lit related articles into this one, and then renaming it again to LGBT literature. I consider Vampire literature to be a model for such a merge, where it has a list of literature, fiction and juvenile fiction.

Other candidates for mention or merge in an expanded article would be:
 * LGBT themes in horror fiction
 * LGBT themes in mythology
 * LGBT themes in comics
 * LGBT themes in speculative fiction
 * Lesbian pulp fiction
 * Gay male pulp fiction
 * Yaoi
 * Yuri (genre)
 * Gay novel
 * Bara (genre)
 * Slash fiction

. -- Nick Penguin ( contribs ) 17:30, 2 January 2013 (UTC)


 * That sounds like a brilliant idea- but keeping up a more specific version of both seems like a good idea- maybe making LGBT Literature into a portal? Thoughts? -Coriander: Novelist, LGBTQ Activist, and general non-snobbish Democrat 00:00, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Are gay and lesbian fiction significantly different to warrant two distinct articles? It seems like they have similar themes, and major differences could be expanded on in separate sections. -- Nick Penguin ( contribs ) 01:30, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd say lesbian and gay-male literature are distinct. There could be literature that's about LGBT life in general, but that would be a third category.  It wouldn't be the same as gay-male literature or lesbian literature. Gronky (talk) 23:40, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


 * From what I've read, many books that use Gay characters or themes within them are originated from ancient Greek tradition, whereas Lesbian (and some Bisexual) literature containing female characters in relationships come from the Seventies and have a different background to them. If separate sections were devoted to either, I suppose it could work. I only worry about such topics being ignored as separate.

-Coriander: Novelist, LGBTQ Activist, and general non-snobbish Democrat 06:21, 3 January 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Coriander Sorrel (talk • contribs)


 * I think this article should be moved to LGBT literature and include a summary of all the other articles (see Summary style) leaving most of them in place. Lesbian literature, and to a lesser extent gay literature are each notable enough for their own articles as well. Insomesia (talk) 23:08, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * No! they are both completely different genres and should be kept that way.Tomh903 (talk) 15:32, 27 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Merger is a very bad idea. Keep the various articles separate. Das Baz, aka Erudil 16:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "LGBT" is an umbrella term embracing several communities that still have their own identities. It would be a disservice to the quality of information found on various pages if it were thinned or homogenized when combined. For example, literature representing transgender lives is still in formative stages and it would be in error to have its evolution implied to be the same as gay literature. Gay and lesbian literature fields evolved in unique timelines and with very little cross-pollination, e.g. lesbians formed their own publishing companies to create lesbian fiction and nonfiction in the 1970s while gay literature found limited success directly with mainstream publishers. While the result of a merging - a unified look at LGBT literature - has some appeal, I'm not sure it would successfully replace separate articles. I agree with Insomesia's suggestion that an article summarizing LGBT literature has a purpose, and it would leave in place other articles as "see also" references to act as their own standalone, likely far more in-depth, reference sources. FairySoap (talk) 06:54, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

This article is somewhat more robust than it was in January 2013 when this proposal was made, but it still consists of a historical overview and then basically a list of subgenre articles with nice summaries. It was indeed originally "LGBT literature" and then, as explained in the previous talk page section, an editor took the Lesbian literature section out and merged it into the Lesbian fiction article and Renamed this article. If I had been paying attention then I don't think I would have supported that. The Lesbian fiction article has its own history and examples, but it's not so long or distinct that it could not be folded into this one. Perhaps gay vs. lesbian have slightly different origins but at this point the existing material doesn't seem to support two separate articles. Of course, if everyone really loves the idea of a separate Lesbian article, we need to at least do a better job organizing the various LGBT literature and subgenre articles.&mdash; TAnthonyTalk 00:58, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * From my limited interaction with the LGBT folk (lesbian friends that I see now and again, and from reading one single autobiography by a gay man), I'm under the impression the topics of these communities (as is or would be reflected in their literature) are quite separate. They share campaigns for LGBT rights, but outside of those campaigns they're quite separate.  Also, if someone went to a bookshop for gay-male literature, I guess they'd be unlikely to pick up some lesbian literature, or vice versa.  Lastly, I disagree that the gay and lesbian literature articles aren't so long or distinct.  They seem well developed and on track to being more so. Gronky (talk) 08:37, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm not pushing hard to eliminate the lesbian fiction article, I'm just saying that the articles that currently exist don't make a huge case why the genres are different. I'm a gay man and I recently did some work on the history section of this article, and the examples in the Lesbian fiction article, as far as I can see, don't paint a distinctly different timeline. It's basically, gay men started writing about themselves in the 1800s, lots of scandal, then the first recognized lesbian novel was written in English in 1928. Pulp novels created a huge explosion of titles for both the gay and lesbian genres. The "young adult" novels cited in the lesbian article are indeed about homosexual women but there's nothing about how these novels are different than novels of the same time period about gay men. I guess maybe I'm thinking the LGBT literature article should go back to what I believe was its original intention: a chronology of gay, lesbian and transgender literature from ancient mythology to present. Then you have jumping-off points to whichever topics require their own articles, like lesbian or transgender fiction, comics and horror and other subgenres. Which is kind of what we currently have, except we've excised lesbians and transgender, which is weird, because outside of the history section, this article doesn't talk too much about male-exclusive literature.&mdash; TAnthonyTalk 18:08, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Edmund White, Samuel Delaney
Has written some excellent, if "difficult/obscure/fin-de-siecle" novels before the autobiographical work. And why leave Samuel Delaney out of the picture. Are Pynchon and Ellis gay writers? Their novels aren't (as far as I can see - and Ellis's "work" to my mind is pure Dreck). A very good German gay writer: Hubert Fichte --79.251.64.185 (talk) 17:47, 25 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I've done a lot of work on this article but it is by no means complete. I have focused more on earlier works, which were more rare, so the 1980s section of the article is really just a start. I have been adding works to the article to form a narrative as I find sources citing notable authors and books, feel free to add material that is well-cited (for notability and impact of the works). Not that we need to list everything that a particular notable author has written, or list every gay novel written during a particular time period.&mdash; TAnthonyTalk 18:14, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

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Requested move 18 October 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Not moved. There is consensus that the current title is the common name for the topic and requires no further disambiguation. (non-admin closure) Colin M (talk) 22:49, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Gay literature → Gay male literature – This seems to be what the article is focused on, and lesbian literature exists as a separate category. This would help the article have more focus. AFreshStart (talk) 21:09, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment this seems kind unnecessary, there's already diffusing page at LGBT literature. Maybe put hatnotes or something for clarity.--Ortizesp (talk) 22:32, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Gay literature is the common name for gay male literature within the fields of lesbian and gay theory, queer theory, and literary studies. Often, it is presented as a counterpart to "lesbian literature", using specifically the phrase "gay literature". Example recent title, though there are older ones that say the same (and this latter one distinctly says that gay literature refers to males - p 14). Precision is nice, but gay male literature is the primary topic/common name for this phrase. Urve (talk) 06:11, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I agree with Urve. Aoba47 (talk) 03:55, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

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Split?
So, this mostly deals with the history of gay literature, based on the headings and total length of text. I wonder if splitting off the history into its own article (along with the history section of Lesbian literature) and refocusing this article on the topic of gay literature, its themes, and its prominence in modern times would be a good idea. Right now, it seems like a bit of a mess. Lover of lgbt literature (talk) 16:58, 27 January 2024 (UTC)


 * I agree with this, not sure if such a thing exists yet but it seems like a better idea to offer a dedicated LGBT literary history article in order to cover a larger array of cultures and time periods. Would be nice to see sections for the rest of the world beyond Europe and the US Satohina (talk) 21:52, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Marguerite Yourcenar ?
Marguerite Yourcenar was a Belgian-French writer who has been the first woman elected to the French Academy. She wrote more than 40 novels and essays whose many main characters (historical/fictional) are queer, like Hadrien in "Mémoires d'Hadrien" or Zénon in "L'œuvre au noir" / "The Abyss". Yourcenar was also notably lesbian and she lived in the United States until her death with her partner Grace Frick.

Adding a section on this writer would certainly be very interesting ! isn't it ? Somithopudri (talk) 08:55, 8 May 2024 (UTC)