Talk:Gaza War (2008–2009)/Archive 70

Requested move 12 May 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: do not move. After over a week of discussion, a clear consensus exists against moving this page to a different title. (non-admin closure) SportingFlyer  T · C  23:56, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Gaza War (2008–2009) → 2008–2009 Gaza conflict – or. I see that another RM is open for →, so it may be a good time to reconsider the "war" part of this title as well, twelve years after an RM of April 2009 when this was still very hot news. The 2008–2009 conflict hardly qualifies as a war. Per a previous remark by PlanespotterA320 and the description in the article, this was a very asymmetric conflict with only 9 deaths on the IDF side (assuming the 4 "friendly fire" casualties are included in the total of 13) and little evident organization on the other side, and it lasted only three weeks. Calling it a war gives a false impression of the nature of this incident. If this article is about a war, then it's about a war that wasn't over in January 2009. GreenC suggested two months ago that the "war" part of the title needed a separate RM, so here it is. —&#8239;BarrelProof (talk) 03:59, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose Only because there is no right or best answer, our article fluctuates between saying "conflict" and "war", as do the sources. There is no objective meaning of "war", and the scale of the conflict is large (over 200k people, tanks, artillery, ground invasion etc). Best to maintain stability rather than churn the title in a lateral move. There have been so many RMs over the years. -- Green  C  05:31, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I was relying on the Old moves list at the top of this talk page, which lists only two prior RMs – one in 2009 and the one two months ago. I suppose that is incomplete. —&#8239;BarrelProof (talk) 15:19, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
 * A search on "requested move" in the archive suggest a bunch more. With 69 archive pages I don't want to find them... There could be some older using different terms. -- Green  C  15:40, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Indeed, although I believe nearly all of that was more than nine years ago (before April 2012). I've been expanding the list in the Old moves record. —&#8239;BarrelProof (talk) 17:14, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Nice work! Interesting how much discussion. My suspicion is accusations of "war crimes" has played a role in calling it a "war" vs "conflict", but both sides have been accused of war crimes so hard to untangle. Possibly "war" favors Palestine and "conflict" favors Israel, but that is supposition without evidence just a hunch.  And not to say you have any POV, looking at broader undercurrents in the sources. --  Green  C  18:50, 13 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Oppose: A war where the two sides suffer dysproportional losses is still a war. This move request reeks of POV pushing. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 22:54, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm curious to know what POV you think this RM is pushing. I think you are mistaken about that. —&#8239;BarrelProof (talk) 00:17, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Dysproportionate casualties are cited as the sole evidence that this was not a war. Well, was the Gulf War not a war? Percentage-wise, the casualties suffered by each belligerent are comparible to those of the 2008 Gaza War. (I was lowkey expecting the proverbial "this wasn't a war, it was a one-sided massacre".) Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 07:50, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
 * It is not just a matter of disproportionate casualties, but that this was a brief campaign within the framework of an ongoing conflict, as contrasted with, e.g., the Gulf War, which had a more clear beginning, a larger scale, and a more clear outcome with a greater sense of permanence. This is more of a chapter than a book. There were some rockets fired and then a week of airstrikes and a two-week incursion/invasion and then a unilateral ceasefire and withdrawal, but something similar could easily happen again six months later or a few years later. There was no treaty or change of boundaries or change of regime or any real sense of an ending. Before this were the 2006 Operation Summer Rains and the 2006 Israeli operation in Beit Hanoun and the November 2008 Israeli operation in the Gaza Strip, and after it were the March 2012 Gaza–Israel clashes and the November 2012 Israeli operation in the Gaza Strip, and so on. I still don't understand what POV you think this RM is pushing. —&#8239;BarrelProof (talk) 15:40, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Apologies for my late reply. Using the same logic, one would have to change the title of 1982 Lebanon War as well, as Israel was in an ongoing conflict with Palestinian militants in Lebanon that had started years before the 1982 invasion. Also, the United States remained continuously at low-scale war with Iraq between 1991 and 2003. Perhaps future historians will regard the 2007-present Israel-Gaza conflict as a single war, but that's not for us to decide. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 20:14, 16 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Oppose I would accept 2008–2009 Gaza War, but not 2008–2009 Gaza conflict Ridax2020 (talk) 11:16, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Support This event was called a war but recentism at the time turned it in to a proper noun. Now the article is out of synch with others and the title causes confusion. 2601:601:CE7F:E270:3427:385E:4986:6512 (talk) 10:18, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose I was in the original discussions in 2009. There is no evidence the criteria we used then has changed.
 * I have had to retire from active editing, but forced to return by this unnecessary requested generated by recent events. i sugget closing admin take care to note that this has been subject to ArbPIA arbcom action and that a lock on thia type of discussions is probably a good idea until the topic is off the press pages.
 * Cerejota (talk) 20:12, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
 * FYI, this request was not generated by recent events. Also, as noted above, it has been nine years since an RM was held on the question of whether this three-week incident should be called a war or not, and the question has hardly been discussed at all for six years. (And I was not aware of those most recent discussions when I opened this, since they had not been recorded in the Old moves template on this Talk page.) That hardly seems like an indication that the discussion has gotten out of hand and all questioning needs to be forbidden. —&#8239;BarrelProof (talk) 16:19, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Oppose. In terms of WP:AT this is a war. I am reminded of a BBC reporter in Kashmir years ago. It was video, but in the background I could hear at least five different classes of gunfire. There were artillery, small arms, heavy and light machine guns, and something else that may have been mortar fire. There had in the preceding 24 hours been fatalities both military and civilian on both sides. The reporter said straight-faced There are grave fears that if this shooting doesn't stop soon, it could lead to war. I have news for this newsman. Andrewa (talk) 11:30, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose Not because I disagree with the idea of the proposal but because RS seem determined, like the 2014 event, to call it a war. I have never really understood why the broader conflict(s) as in Gaza–Israel conflict or Israel-Palestine conflict is referred to as a conflict while an episode of same is a war but there you go.Selfstudier (talk) 11:45, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 4 October 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved (non-admin closure) BegbertBiggs (talk) 12:33, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Gaza War (2008–2009) → 2008–2009 Gaza War – Going through RM, even though this is minor, because of the contentious subject matter. Request move to match the year + location + event format of other articles in this series, such as 2014 Gaza War, 2023 Gaza–Israel clashes, among others.&#32;Longhornsg (talk) 15:40, 3 October 2023 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). Longhornsg (talk) 18:22, 4 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose - Those are only single year events. Most articles on multiple year conflicts use the dates in parenthesis behind the name, or are in the process of being moved there via RM. estar8806 (talk) ★ 21:08, 4 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose per Estar8806. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:45, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose I believe the Milhist convention here on wikipedia is to put the year in brackets as the article currently has. For example see, Ottoman–Venetian War (1714–1718), Battle of Mogadishu (1993), Battle of Pensacola (1861), etc. there are literally hundreds of examples that could be posted.XavierGreen (talk) 21:29, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I am not aware of a formal consensus resolution other than "use RM". Some prefer parens for some purposes, and leading dates for other purposes (like browsing Category pages). It depends which purposes you value most. Or a hybrid system as estar8806 said. -- Green  C  22:37, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 November 2023
please change "and responded with rocket rocket fire into Israel" to "and responded with rocket fire into Israel" ProbablyJustAnotherWombat (talk) 06:27, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ Cannolis (talk) 19:54, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Possible violation of WP:Verifiability
I haven't been editing Wikipedia for very long, so I'm not sure, but a lot of claims, especially more extreme claims that Hamas took over a children's hospital, seem to only point to the Jerusalem Post as a source. JPost is a right-wing Israeli newspaper; if there aren't better sources for claims such as this, I think paragraphs like "Hamas also set up a command centre within a children's hospital located in the Nasser neighbourhood of Gaza City, which was used by top Hamas leadership on the night of 27 December. Senior Hamas commanders also set up a command center in a Red Crescent Society clinic in Khan Yunis." should be edited to be clear this is not an undisputed fact. Yeep yorp (talk) 21:02, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Missing context for events of June 10th 2006
This paragraph in the Background does not properly illustrate context:

"Hamas refrained from firing rockets toward Israel for 14 months in accordance with the February ceasefire agreement, until IDF naval shelling hit a Gaza beach, killing seven civilians, on 10 June 2006."

The current wording makes it seem like the IDF hit a Gaza beach for no reason and then Hamas continued firing rockets breaking the established ceasefire they had signed onto. Its confusing to anyone who would read this.

On June 8th 2006, Israel broke the ceasefire when an Israeli air strike assassinated Jamal Abu Samhadana who was a member of the Hamas government.

This is documented in other wikipedia articles so there should be some consistency here: See 2006 Gaza cross-border raid & Jamal Abu Samhadana.

These details are important to establish a correct chronological record of events because the naval shelling which led to Hamas calling off the Truce was a response to Hamas rocket attacks at Sderot that were carried out in response to Israel breaking the ceasefire when it assassinated Abu Samhadana who was just appointed Director General of the Executive Force, in April 2006 by Said Seyam, Interior Minister of the Palestinian National Authority's new Hamas-led government.

Proposed paragraph:

"On June 8th 2006, the February ceasefire agreement was broken when an Israeli air strike assassinated Jamal Abu Samhadana who was appointed Director General of the Executive Force, in the newly elected Hamas government. This led to an exchange of rocket fire from Hamas and subsequent naval shelling from the IDF that hit a Gaza beach, killing seven civilians, on 10 June 2006. This outbreak of violence led to the abduction by Hamas militants of Gilad Shalit on June 25th 2006 leading to Operation Summer Rains which was followed by a ceasefire on November 26th 2006 "

Also I would think it makes sense to move that paragraph down & mention this:

The Fatah and Hamas factions finally signed an agreement to stop their military confrontations on February 8th 2007 but this peace agreement was met with Israel's decision to blockade the Gaza Strip in June 2007. Drocj (talk) 11:00, 9 November 2023 (UTC)


 * You are proposing the phrase "This led to an exchange of rocket fire from Hamas"; with whom were they "exchanging" rocket fire? "Exchange" isn't something one party does on its own. MrDemeanour (talk) 16:06, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Great and thorough suggestion @Drocj! I see the value of this edit for the context that it adds. Uhhhum (talk) 18:55, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Typo
“Hostilites” should be changed to “hostilities” at the top of the article. 64.88.226.24 (talk) 00:35, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * fixed, ty  nableezy  - 01:47, 21 December 2023 (UTC)