Talk:Gaza flotilla raid/Archive 5

Islamist organization
The editor User:Kslotte who violated the multimple revert rules and other rules has now been blocked. However, there is still no material on the page about the well-documented ties of the the IHH (İnsani Yardım Vakfı) to Islamist ideas and sponsorship/advocacy of violence. Here is some documentation:

The Daily Telegraph suggested that the IHH is "a radical Islamist group masquerading as a humanitarian agency", however conceded that these "claims remain controversial"

According to Henri Barkey, an analyst for the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, the IHH is, an Islamist organisation as it has been deeply involved with Hamas for some time," and "Some of its members went on the boat saying that they had written their last will and testament." Broad Wall (talk) 14:48, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

More could be added, but surely omitting such information from this article is a gross violation of NPOV.Broad Wall (talk) 15:19, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

I suggest you read the Wikipedia entry on IHH. According to a International Studies Danish Institute research, the IHH had ties with Islamist armed groups such as Hamas and Al-Qaeda, and was even caught storing weapons and bomb-making instructions in its HQ in Istanbul, in a 1997 police raid. So describing it as a radical Islamist group is correct, although harder labels could also fit.  M ath K night  07:31, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Just thought it would be important to keep in mind that Hamas (as opposed to only its military wing) is considered to be a terrorist organisation by a few countries, most of which are staunch allies of Israel. Mshahidil (talk) 00:00, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * 930913(Congratulate/Complaints) 16:25, 2 June 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by A930913 (talk • contribs)


 * I collapsed this thread. Interesting discussion for user talk pages, but it's WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. TFOWRidle vapourings 17:00, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Turkey to review all ties with Israel
Turkey's parliament called on the government Wednesday to review all ties with Israel http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=177282

--Nevit (talk) 16:46, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Aharonovitch opposes activists' release What are you talking about? Metallurgist (talk) 03:05, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

İbrahim Bilgen
I don't really understand why the political ideology of İbrahim Bilgen (belonging to an Islamist party; a major feature of the Turkish political system: islamist vs. secular parties) is constantly removed, with hilarious comments (the last being a "grammar fix"). --Ecemaml (talk) 17:07, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

new video shows prepartion of the terrorists arming themselves with weapons before the clash
I think the new video released from the ship's security camera changes the whole picture. It's not Israel's version. Videos show that no soldiers shot first. The idea implied in the article's pictures and captions that IDF may have doctored pictures or that it's not reliable, is pure antisemitic. Enough of that. If IDF "claims" then the antisemitic news agencies "claim" as well. 85.250.248.46 (talk) 17:14, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Link?Shrike (talk) 17:26, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZlSSaPT_OU&feature=player_embedded#!Shrike (talk) 17:58, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * These videos do give a degree of credence to Israel's account. Though a video can be cropped to tell a particular story.  I'd say that the Israeli's account should be updated to make it clear which of their claims they have not backed up with video evidence.  -- Bob drobbs (talk) 18:13, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Or we could, you know, ignore those people who are obviously just here to push a POV. Also, "It's not Israel's version"?  The user who posted that on youtube is idfnadesk.  They describe themselves as "IDF Spokesperson's Unit".  Here's their profile.  Seriously, would all of the POV-pushers kindly GTFO?  It's hard enough to make a neutral and fair article on a subject such as this without having to deal with your lies and misinformation.  That goes equally for pro- and anti-israeli people.  The Internet is a big place.  Take your bickering elsewhere. Throwaway85 (talk) 19:01, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Shrike, I think you need to take a closer look at that video footage. First of all, surveillance camera footage is almost always in black and white. Secondly, The activists are show wearing life vests, however, in all other video shots of the incident, no life vests are worn, it is also highly unlikely that in the heat of the moment these activist preparing for battle remembered to dawn their life vests. Lastly and most importantly, The footage in this video shows no wobble or sway at all. If this was really filmed on a moving boat, in the middle of the Mediterranean, the footage would not be completely still, as it is in this shot. Also, the Israeli commandos entered from helicopter, they did not board the ship by rappelling up the sides. This is a crude attempt distort the facts of this story. This situation is confusing enough without people uploading fake videos to youtube. Sam H 00:33, 3 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The video seems real. If it is real it shows some activists making preparations to defend against a raid. On the other hand, with Infrared thermal views, Israel army could easily spot those people before raiding. So they knew what they would get into. Commandos raided from both helicopters and from sea boats. The footage shows activists with wooden sticks, slingshots, a high pressure water hose with no blade, kind of weapons, and an organized attack/defense against the raiders.
 * On the other hand those weapons aren't comparable with automatic rifled/knifed commandos. There is only a number advantage. Also no shaking in the video is a bit suspicious as you say. The bigger the ship the more it shakes on sea. And of course it is a footage. It doesn't show how IDF commandos shoot people at all. If it would be unedited we would see how the kill activists. On high waters noone has any right to intertwine any ship. Kasaalan (talk) 01:19, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

The video appears to be corroborated by this video, which shows water being sprayed, stuff being thrown, and it shows a commando attempting to put up a grappling hook. As for Sam Hs comments: 1. "almost always in black and white" is meaningless. You even say so yourself. This is one example of color security tapes. 2. There are loads of videos with them wearing life vests. They were notified by radio that they would be boarded and had plenty of time to put them on after the warning or before. 3. There is no wobble or sway when something is bolted to the object that is moving. 4. The video I posted above appears to corroborate this video somewhat. Metallurgist (talk) 03:48, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

IDF claims its action were according to internatinal law
IDF claims its action were according to internatinal law: http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/114/623.html?hp=1&cat=875 ShalomOlam (talk) 17:09, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Gaza convoy raid may boost militancy
Gaza convoy raid may boost militancy http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6512VD20100602 --Nevit (talk) 17:10, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * That article contained speculation what could happen next. Didn't contain much concrete actions. --Kslotte (talk) 20:37, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Current Weapons Picture is not NPOV
If you look at the file talk then everyone is rightfully saying that they just look like "tools" and stuff you can find on any ship. I'm not sure if this source can be used, or if we should wait and see if the media will cover it (unlikely), but here, you can see pictures with slingshots with "Hizbollah" written on them, the saws they used to cut the metal poles from they ship that they used as weapons, and knives that were obviously not kitchen knives and one of which even looked like a punch dagger - demonstrating the obvious premeditated nature of the violence on the part of the "peace activists." TheGoodLocust (talk) 17:33, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Video of them arming themselves, putting on gas masks, and throwing objects at the IDF before they boarded. TheGoodLocust (talk) 17:37, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Video of them throwing objects at soldiers - including a stun grenade. TheGoodLocust (talk) 17:39, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Please stop advocating on behalf of the IDF spokesperson. It isn't allowed. If you have something to add to the article please find a secondary reliable source that describes it.  Sean.hoyland  - talk 18:06, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Unless we are going to also add pictures of victims or videos from funerals, then it might make sense to cool the rhetoric.--Nosfartu (talk) 18:12, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Showing video isn't advocating for any spokesman other than the truth. If you want a secondary source since eyes aren't good enough then here you go. They threw stun grenades and waved metal rods around before they were even boarded. Those are facts not "rhetoric." TheGoodLocust (talk) 18:16, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't see what is wrong with Good's discussion. Seems appropriate. As to primary sources, that's an exaggeration of any concern about primarys -- we wouldn't for example want to censor the article by cutting out all quotes attributed to people on boats on both sides, pictures from both sides, videos from both sides, etc. Well, most of us wouldn't.  There does seem to be a highly active contingent of editors with very few edits who would like to.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:17, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * How many images to include in the article is a perfectly reasonable discussion. I just don't understand the point of having what the Christian Science Monitor described as a video parsing contest to show the most bruises, kvives, shootings, funerals, etc.--Nosfartu (talk) 18:27, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Re: Primary sources, I agree. If the IDF say "X" we can say that the IDF said "X". Likewise, if the flotilla organisers say "Y" we can say that the flotilla organisers said "Y". Both parties know best what their respective claims are. The issue, I believe, with WP:PRIMARY sources comes with the rest of the article, the part not relating to statements by the IDF or the flotilla organisers. What the article says happened - that we need to get from WP:SECONDARY sources. I don't trust the IDF or the flotilla organisers for, say, the number of casualties. I trust the BBC and CNN and Channel 10 and Al Jazeera to stake their reputations on accuracy, and I'm far happier citing them than either of directly involved parties. TFOWRidle vapourings 18:30, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Epee, I do see what is wrong with this behavior. This kind of thing, 'Showing video isn't advocating for any spokesman other than the truth.', is why we have the discretionary sanctions. If that is how an editor approachs an article they need to walk away for a while and come back when they understand that this is just an encyclopedia not another battlefield in the Israel-Palestine conflict per the sanctions. All of these IDF videos and the associated MFA narratives will be covered in reliable secondary sources if they are worth our attention. It's not about censorship, it's about people fighting lame wars here when they are required to comply with policies and the discretionary sanctions. If they simply do that, comply with policy, stick to article content rather than 'the truth' I have no problem with it at all. There does indeed seem to be a highly active contingent of socky editors with very few edits and if you have an idea who they might be let me know and I will try to help prove it/file SPI reports. I don't care which side they're on.  Sean.hoyland  - talk 18:52, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd like to agree with this sentiment. I would just like for us to keep in mind that Wikipedia isn't intended to be a collections of photographs or media files, that's what Wikimedia Commons is for and to keep in mind this isn't a video parsing contest.--Nosfartu (talk) 18:33, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Proposal: I'd like to replace the current weapons photo with this one or this one. I'd prefer the first one since it is clearer, but alternatively, I could combine several photos into a collage and add that. Note: These are from the same source used for the photo that is currently in the article. TheGoodLocust (talk) 18:36, 2 June 2010 (UTC) Nosfartu (talk) 18:44, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment: I just had a closer reading of WP:PRIMARY: Primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source can be used only to make descriptive statements that can be verified by any educated person without specialist knowledge. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source. Do not make analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about material found in a primary source. Do not base articles entirely on primary sources. Do not add unsourced material from your personal experience, as that would make Wikipedia a primary source of that material. Further, to be copyright compliant clear attribution would have to be given and the resolution may have to be lowered. --


 * Yes you are correct, that's why I didn't propose to include pictures showing where the metal rods and where they were sawed off from parts of the ship to use as weapons since that description would require a secondary source. TheGoodLocust (talk) 19:24, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Legal Opinions
Many more opinions were cited against legality than for legality of the action. For instance the opinion of Harvard Law Prof Alan Dershowitz was not cited http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/dershowitz/ AFarber (talk) 18:48, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Well you may quote him like other sources. But also note that he is long-time advocate of Israel, and author of The Case for Israel. Kasaalan (talk) 19:58, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Upcoming confrotation with 2nd wave of ships
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/02/gaza.raid.activists/index.html

So we all know that more ships are on the way and it looks like there will be another confrontation.

Anyone feel like pre-empting how this should be covered in relation to the current article?

Zuchinni one (talk) 19:01, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Good question. I think it may make sense - already now - to split this article into one about the whole flotilla and one about the raid. Currently, the list of ships fits only awkwardly into the article, since it contains ships that have nothing to do with the raid. &mdash; Sebastian 19:19, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Israel threatens to use more force. So it is not a matter of sticks. or If we attack you and you defend yourself, then you are attacking us and we are defending ourselves. It is a political decision  by government of state. http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177134 --Nevit (talk) 20:00, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * First step is the add a new section for example "2nd wave of ships" last. But we need to start to think how to split up the article, it starts to get WP:TOOLONG. --Kslotte (talk) 20:28, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Could at first be put in section "Aftermath". --Kslotte (talk) 20:48, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

The other five ships were raided also, but they put up little or no resistance. Metallurgist (talk) 03:51, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Israeli reaction
I added. Do the Israeli reaction section has to be build only on israeli goverment PR. NPOV rather require balanced coverage. If there is Armada of Hate there the toronto Star sectrum was IMO good dePOV. What do you think? Hovever i prefer this outcome since there is way to find hate other than in ourselves soul reflection. So the if you do with love to other no hate will ever exist and if you cal somebody H word it is in you. Pace Ai 00 (talk) 19:50, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I was thinking renaming "International reactions to the Gaza flotilla raid" into "Political reactions to the Gaza flotilla raid". And then merge the "Israeli reactions" there, but leave a few sentences in the main article. What do other think? --Kslotte (talk) 20:22, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I absolutely agree with your idea, Kslotte. Salut, -- IANVS (talk | cont) 23:34, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * It was named "Reactions to ..." only. Simpler is better. The section in the main article needs still updating to correspond as summary of the reaction article. --Kslotte (talk) 02:12, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Six or seven ships involved in raid? MS Sofia?
All texts say six ships. But there is seven in the list: Challenger 1, Eleftheri Mesogeios, Sfendoni, MV Mavi Marmara, Gazze, Defne Y and MS Sofia. How is MS Sofia involved? If remember correct she wasn't in the list two days ago. --Kslotte (talk) 20:16, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

BTW. The two greek ships "Eleftheri Mesogeios and Sfendoni" could be split in two separate entries. --Kslotte (talk) 20:18, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Personal accounts
There is currently a difference of opinion whether personal accounts should be included, which leads to some looping between various versions with accounts from either side. See this diff for the maximum difference so far. Can we discuss this from a neutral point of view? &mdash; Sebastian 20:26, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Report of American beaten and jailed by Israelis
--149.166.34.100 (talk) 20:43, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I think that WP:REDFLAG should apply here. Also - in one of the links provided it is said: "The report could not be independently confirmed". ShalomOlam (talk) 20:47, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * KTVU and SFGate are unreliable now? Was the one source saying it couldn't be confirmed because of Israeli military censors? If the IDF is a reliable source for reporting and can censor other coverage, how does that impact the story?--149.166.34.100 (talk) 20:54, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The San Francisco Chronicle is Northern California's largest newspaper, and one of the largest in the United States, serving primarily the San Francisco Bay Area. It has a circulation of 312,118 daily. The paper has received the Pulitzer Prize on a number of occasions.--149.166.34.100 (talk) 21:07, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * SFGate did not say anyone was beatan. SFGate says that one person "suffered a scrape". ShalomOlam (talk) 21:09, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * "In his message, Paul Larudee said he was injured as he resisted arrest on the ship and that he was currently refusing to sign deportation papers in protest." Also, the first source is actually from some really small Berkley newspaper and was simply reprinted by the San Jose Mercury News. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:14, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

You are quoting an Israeli representative. The San Jose Mercury News is the major daily newspaper in San Jose, California and Silicon Valley. It has a circulation of 230,870 daily. It reported he "was badly beaten". KTVU reported his wife "learned via the U.S. consulate that her husband was jailed and beaten in the aftermath of Monday's controversial Israeli raid on the flotilla" and that he reported "blackened eye and bruises all over his body". Why is there such an effort to paint his injuries as minimal (when he can't be shown in public), and why such an attempt to call these sources unreliable?--149.166.34.100 (talk) 21:18, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I think that the fact that one of the sources wrote "report could not be independently confirmed" - speaks for itself. ShalomOlam (talk) 21:22, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I think that the Israeli government won't speak on his condition or release him speaks for itself. The IDF doesn't have any pictures of him?--149.166.34.100 (talk) 21:24, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The only thing that speaks to is that he refused to sign the deportation papers - as stated in the article. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:27, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * What does that have to do with them beating him and holding him in a windowless cell? They can't even show him in public?--149.166.34.100 (talk) 21:30, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * You said they wouldn't release him - but didn't mention that was only because he wouldn't sign his deportation papers. Rather dishonest eh? As for having a "windowless cell" (assuming you actually got this "fact" right) do you think cells usually have windows? Do you think Israel has the resources to organize "visiting hours" for the hundreds of "activists" they've had to deal with? Good grief dude. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:34, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * They have resources to record a military raid but they don't have resources to announce his status to the press? How much does it cost to NOT put a wall up in a cell?--149.166.34.100 (talk) 21:37, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Why should they "announce his status" over the hundreds of other people? I guess that must be the entitlement/activist mentality at work. And I don't think you understand what a "cell" is - they need walls in them and like airplanes not everyone gets a window seat. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:51, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Since was beaten may looks like Rocky after 10th round so its natural that they want to cure a lite his flesh. Thats the lesson from movie.

✅ Request to add information in reliable sources about beaten American to article.--149.166.34.100 (talk) 21:21, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Your "reliable" sources say the "The report could not be independently confirmed". That does not sound reliable to me... ShalomOlam (talk) 21:26, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * What does the Israeli government not discussing his status have to do with it? There is plenty of coverage..--149.166.34.100 (talk) 21:29, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Another source said the 64-year old man was tasered. He said he was defending another passenger.--149.166.34.100 (talk) 21:34, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * There is no "another" source. There is only one source in all of these reports, and that's Betty Larudee, who most likely gave an interview to one just reporter. There are no other sources, beside Betty Larudee, and she is not reliable. WP:REDFLAG apply here. ShalomOlam (talk) 21:41, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know how you can justify the beating and tasering of a 64 year old man trying to deliver humanitarian aid by armed soldiers from an organized military, and further call mainstream newspapers unreliable. I give up.--149.166.34.100 (talk) 21:45, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * If he is old enough to resist arrest then he is old enough to get tasered bro. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:54, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Two more "red flags". The Associated Press is reporting that "Akiva Tor, the Israeli consul general in San Francisco" has at a minimum confirmed "Larudee was taken to a prison, bruised and cut."--149.166.34.100 (talk) 23:20, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * And I guess he has belonged to what Israel calls a terrorist group for awhile now.--149.166.34.100 (talk) 23:44, 2 June 2010 (UTC)