Talk:Gediminas' Cap

Queries
Pofka, two queries TSventon (talk) 19:15, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Have you found sources for the article name in English? The only book I could find online was Making a Great Ruler: Grand Duke Vytautas of Lithuania by Giedrė Mickūnaitė, which used "the cap of Gediminas". I don't think "the" is needed before "Gediminas' Cap".
 * What does "During the coronations of joint Polish–Lithuanian monarchs, the Polish crowns were also announced as a property of the Lithuanian nobles" mean? It looks like a literal translation of its source, but is unclear in English.


 * The first one is a good point; also Mickūnaitė seems to prefer name "Vytautas' Cap" Marcelus (talk) 19:30, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Answers:
 * No, the English sources are still hard to find about this subject. If you find any WP:RS, please add them to the article. I'm not sure about the usage of "the" before its name as English language is not my native language., what do you think? Nevertheless, in Lithuanian sources the widely used and recognized name is Gediminas' Cap (e.g. article of the Universal Lithuanian Encyclopedia). This reliable Lithuanian source also indicate that Gediminas' Cap was mentioned in the 16th century sources. By the way, in the page 149 of Giedrė Mickūnaitė's book it is clearly indicated that by tradition it was called after Gediminas. Relevant example is Gediminas' Tower.
 * It means that Polish crown (item) had a shared ownership (it belonged to Lithuanian and Polish nobles, maybe someone else like Ruthenian nobles as well). For example, like if you buy something (e.g. supermarket) with a friend and the supermarket belong to you and your friend (joint ownership). This is very basic example, but I think it will allow you to easily understand the issue. -- Po  fk  a  (talk) 19:41, 21 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Mickūnaitė uses "the cap of Gediminas" rather than "Gediminas' Cap" in the book I quoted, She seems more interested in "the cap of Vytautas". "the cap of Gediminas" and "Gediminas' Cap" translate to the same thing, at least according to Google translate. I have removed "the" following the example of Monomakh's Cap.
 * I have changed "Lithuanian nobles" to "both Polish and Lithuanian nobles". I am not familiar with nobles owning crowns, but I suppose it makes sense for an elected monarchy. TSventon (talk) 20:59, 21 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Reply to :
 * The Giedrė Mickūnaitė's book is about Vytautas the Great and the cap was also used by Vytautas the Great, so not surprising, however Giedrė Mickūnaitė wrote (page 149) that by tradition it was called after Gediminas. This name is supported by the Universal Lithuanian Encyclopedia and Lituanistika.lt.
 * The Union of Lublin in 1569 created a dual state (Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth) where Lithuanian and Polish nobles elected their joint monarch (see: Election sejm). Since 1569 the Polish crown was used by the Grand Duke of Lithuania (this ruler title and a separate state was preserved within the Commonwealth), so the crown was owned by Lithuanian nobles as well. See also: Reciprocal Guarantee of Two Nations. -- Po  fk  a  (talk) 21:12, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Is "owned" proper translation? I think it's more about Polish crown representing soveregnity of both nations, as it was also the crown that ruler of Lithuania was crowned with Marcelus (talk) 21:23, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, the translation is accurate. The Polish King was not ruler of Lithuania as the Grand Duke of Lithuania (preserved ruler title with a separate state, capital, army and territory) continued to rule the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, but the King and Grand Duke was elected jointly. Quote: "Liublino unijos (1569) aktais Lietuvos didžiojo kunigaikščio inauguracija panaikinta, vainikuojant Lenkijos karalių (jis tapdavo ir Lietuvos didžiuoju kunigaikščiu) jo karūna skelbiama ir lietuvių tautos (bajorų) nuosavybe." (source). -- Po  fk  a  (talk) 21:34, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Why is "Polish crowns" plural in the article, when it is singular in the source? Should the wikilink be Crown of the Kingdom of Poland or Polish crown jewels? - (unsigned statement by TSventon)
 * It should be wikilinked to Polish crown jewels because in this case we are interested in an item (crown), not state (Crown of the Kingdom of Poland). The Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth was a dual state of the Crown of the Kingdom of Poland and Grand Duchy of Lithuania. I think plural form is necessary because in 1569-1795 more than one crown was used to crown Polish-Lithuanian monarchs (see article Polish crown jewels with different crowns of different monarchs). -- Po  fk  a  (talk) 17:34, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
 * But there was only one crown in the sense of regalium, Crown of Bolesław I the Brave was the one used for coronations Marcelus (talk) 18:32, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The text was corrected according to an article of the Universal Lithuanian Encyclopedia. Since professor Edvardas Gudavičius used a singular form, I see no problem using a singular form here as well. -- Po  fk  a  (talk) 21:22, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

You should nominate this to GA-level
@Pofka your work in this article is exceptionally good! Perhaps it would be a good idea to nominate this to be a WP:GOODARTICLE? You can nominate it at Good article nominations. Cukrakalnis (talk) 21:31, 4 April 2023 (UTC)


 * @Cukrakalnis, sorry about this but I don't think this should be nominated for GA yet. It needs more expansion with WP:RS before GA nomination. @Pofka, Excellent work on this article, though. Even if it is not eligible for GA it still is quite a quality article. -- Shadow  of the  Starlit Sky  00:46, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you both for your kind words, but I think it is too early to nominate this article as GA. It looks to me that this article is still too short and lacks some kind of details, but I currently have no ideas in what direction and with what sources it could be expanded. -- Po  fk  a  (talk) 07:37, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I added the dates of Gediminas' life. to try to improve the lead with a starting date. Although the history of the coronations is very good, at times I get the impression that it was not always the same "cap" when it is referred to as "a cap" instead of "The Cap." There's no mention of what became of The Cap or where it is now, if it still exists. Maybe these things are unknown. Wastrel Way (talk) Eric
 * The cap was used during the inauguration only twice (or at least only two such occasions are reported in sources) in 1509 and 1529. It's unkown when such regalia was created if it was only one cap or several, and when it was lost (probably during the sack of Vilnius by Russians in 17th century).Marcelus (talk) 11:50, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * @Marcelus Does the "princes of the Reich" in the quotation from Stryjkowski refer to prince-electors or no? I am asking this in advance to make sure that I would accurately link to relevant articles. Cukrakalnis (talk) 20:04, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I believe so, since Stryjkowski says kurfistowie rzescy, and Polish kurfist is derived from German Kurfürst Marcelus (talk) 20:24, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you Cukrakalnis (talk) 21:03, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Coronation
Coronation is a is the act of placement or bestowal of a crown upon a monarch's head, Grand Dukes didn't use a crown but a cap, also the cap wasn't always used during the inauguration. RS are using terms like inauguration or elevation, but not coronation. Marcelus (talk) 22:26, 23 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Can you provide the links to these sources? -- Shadow  of the  Starlit Sky  13:59, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * this: https://www.vle.lt/straipsnis/inauguracija/ and bibliography Marcelus (talk) 17:57, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, in Crown (heraldry), there are many sorts of ducal hats included, so it seems that they are technically crowns and thus it can be called a coronation. Cukrakalnis (talk) 21:05, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

"Hap of Giedymin" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hap_of_Giedymin&redirect=no Hap of Giedymin] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. #prodraxis connect 16:47, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Quotes and additional explanation about the 1580 ceremony of the Lithuanian Grand Duke Stephen Báthory
Here are additional explanation and sourcing about the 1580 Lithuanian ceremony of Grand Duke Stephen Báthory. During the inauguration/elevation ceremony of the Grand Duke Stephen Báthory (29 May 1580) a blessed sword and hat (both were sanctified by Pope Gregory XIII himself) was used in the Vilnius Cathedral and the ceremony likely did not feature the usual Gediminas' Cap at all (it certainly wasn't placed on Báthory's head). Nevertheless, multiple WP:RS describe the ceremony of 29 May 1580 as elevation/enthronement ceremony of the new Grand Duke of Lithuania (Stephen Báthory) and this clearly was an ignoration of the stipulations of the Union of Lublin. Supporting sources: "1. 'Iš pradžių, regis, buvo mėginama didžiajam kunigaikščiui rengti atskirą ceremoniją. 1580 m. gegužės 29 d. Vilniaus katedroje įvykęs popiežiaus kalavijo ir karūnos perdavimo aktas amžininkų akimis ir buvo Stepono Batoro, kaip didžiojo kunigaikščio, intronizavimas' (At first, it seems, there was an attempt to hold a separate ceremony for the Grand Duke. In the eyes of contemporaries, the act of handing over the papal sword and crown that took place in the Vilnius Cathedral on 1580 May 29 was the enthronement of Stephen Báthory as the Grand Duke). Source: publication by Lithuanian Institute of History, p. 9." "2. Maciej Stryjkowski's Kronika polska, litewska, żmódzka i wszystkiéj Rusi Macieja Stryjkowskiego. T. 2. Warsaw, 1846, p. 432. This source is provided as a backing source in the publication by Lithuanian Institute of History (mentioned above)." "3. 'Vienas iš tokių, Lietuvos valstybingumą tvirtinančių valdovo gestų buvo jo pakėlimo į Lietuvos sostą ceremonija. 1580 m. gegužės 29 d. valdovas priešais Vilniaus katedros didįjį altorių iš žemaičių vyskupo Merkelio Giedraičio rankų priėmė popiežiaus Grigaliaus XIII atsiųstą kalaviją ir Lietuvos didžiojo kunigaikščio kepurę kartu su apaštališkuoju palaiminimu. Toks ritualas turėjo sąsajų su ankstesnių valdovų pakėlimo į Lietuvos dk sostą ceremonialu, nors sudarius Liublino sąjungą, jis neturėjo būti praktikuojamas.' (One of such gestures of the ruler confirming Lithuania's statehood was the ceremony of his elevation to the throne of Lithuania. On 29 May 1580 in front of the high altar of the Vilnius Cathedral, the ruler accepted the sword sent by Pope Gregory XIII and the hat of the Grand Duke of Lithuania together with the apostolic blessing from the hands of the Samogitian Bishop Merkelis Giedraitis. Such a ritual had connections with the ceremonial elevation of previous rulers to the throne of Lithuania, although it was not supposed to be practiced after the union of Lublin). Source: publication by Vilnius University, p. 67 (title page claims that there also is a translation to the Hungarian language by BEATRIX TÖLGYESI)." "4. 'Vienas įdomiausių su Lietuva susijusių Naujosios Karalystės iždinės eksponatų – iš pirmo žvilgsnio neišvaizdi kalavijo geležtė. Iš tikrųjų – tai 1580 m. gegužės 29 d. priešais Vilniaus katedros didįjį altorių Lenkijos ir Lietuvos valdovui Steponui Batorui (1576–1586) įteiktas popiežiaus Grigaliaus XIII pašventintas kalavijas, per amžius praradęs savo puošnią rankeną. Kalaviją ir perlais puoštą popiežiaus pašventintą kepurę valdovui įteikė žemaičių vyskupas Merkelis Giedraitis. Lietuvoje ši ceremonija traktuota kaip Lietuvos didžiojo kunigaikščio pakėlimo iškilmės, kurias rengiant buvo ignoruojama Liublino unija ir manifestuojamas Lietuvos savarankiškumas.' (One of the most interesting exhibits of the treasury of the New Kingdom related to Lithuania is an unsightly sword blade at first glance. In fact, on 29 May 1580 in front of the high altar of the Vilnius Cathedral, the sword consecrated by Pope Gregory XIII was presented to the ruler of Poland and Lithuania, Stephen Báthory (1576-1586), having lost its ornate handle over the centuries. Merkelis Giedraitis, bishop of Samogitia, presented the ruler with a sword and a hat decorated with pearls consecrated by the Pope. In Lithuania, this ceremony was treated as the celebration of the elevation of the Grand Duke of Lithuania, during which the Union of Lublin was ignored and Lithuania's sovereignty was manifested). Source: article published by the Palace of the Grand Dukes of Lithuania." "5. Identical paragraph like in the 4th point (above) was (likely) later republished by the official website of the Lithuanian National Radio and Television (HERE) and a very popular Lithuanian news website 15min.lt (HERE)." By the way, the 1569 Union of Lublin was not accepted in the first try because of the Lithuanian nobles strong objection to it and its conditions. However, the Principality of Moscow was waging a successful war against the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (which lost important territories like Polotsk) and the Kingdom of Poland was not much willing to help the Lithuanians until a chunk of territory of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was transferred to the Kingdom of Poland and eventually they accepted the Union of Lublin. This led to successful reconquests by joint Polish-Lithuanian military forces (e.g. Polotsk, etc.). Moreover, this ceremony of Stephen Báthory is not the first example when the Lithuanian nobles violated previous agreements with the Poles (e.g. Casimir IV Jagiellon was separately proclaimed the Grand Duke of Lithuania by the Lithuanians and a ceremony inaugurating him as the Grand Duke of Lithuania was held in 1440, this way violating the Union of Grodno (1432) and terminating the Polish–Lithuanian union (first source, second source, p. 8). -- Po  fk  a  (talk) 20:22, 6 November 2023 (UTC)