Talk:Geli Raubal/Archive 1

Hitlers Suicide
"Hitler committed suicide using the same Walther pistol involved in Raubal's death" My understanding (and relevant wiki page) suggest a gunshot wound is questionable. Possibly cyanide capsule only. This sentence implies death by gunshot wound as matter-of-fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.27.121.68 (talk) 23:06, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
 * DNA tests on Hitler's skullcap confirm that the artifact is authentic. It also contains a mongo bullethole. Pimpoosh (talk) 00:40, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Vegetarian?
Hitler was certainly not a "devout vegetarian" after 1931, and there are many proposed reasons for his vegetarianism, the most common being stomach problems. However, I've left the vegetarian bit in this article in a weaker form, not having any cites to confirm or deny it. Adking80 06:04, 8 May 2005 (UTC) http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERraubal.htm <-- less bias.

According to recent BBC Radio programmes (no dates, sorry) Hitler was not vegetarian, but simply selective about which types of meat he would eat. Can someone follow this up?

Das Verbot
Hitler hatte ein sexuelles Verhältnis zu seiner Nichte, obwohl er eigentlich eher schwul war. Jedenfalls hat er ihr alles mögliche verboten, woraufhin sie sich mit seiner Pistole das Leben nahm. '''Although Hitler was in reality gay, he had a sexual relationship with his niece. Anyways he forbid all possible things, leading her to take her own life.''' Simon Mayer, 4. August 2005


 * Note, there is zero evidence or support for any assertion that "AH was gay." There is lots of evidence he was involved in an incestuous relationship with his niece, which was socially acceptable among certain groups in the area where he grew up (his mother Klara was his father Alois' cousin on both sides of her family). Wyss 13:40, 4 August 2005 (UTC)


 * sorry, but I cannot understand you!

This is the English Wikipedia. Try the German one? Wyss 13:19, 5 August 2005 (UTC)


 * A better translation: Hitler had a sexual relationship with his niece, although he earlier was actually homosexual. In any case he denied her any chance to use his pistol to take her life. J S Ayer (talk)

Incest?
Use of the term incest to describe AH's relationship with GR is problematic.


 * We don't know if they were ever intimate
 * If they were, incest to most anglo-saxon readers would imply a criminal act, which it would not have been at that time and place
 * Marriage between close cousins etc was normal in AH's family and was not illegal. His parents Alois and Klara were closely and similarly related, for example.

The evidence indicates suicide more than murder and that's the broad consensus of historians. There is zero evidence AH murdered his niece, only speculation (most of what which seems based on rumours, inuendo and/or disinformation circulating at the time and during the later 1930s, not documented facts). There is plenty of evidence she felt somehow trapped in a relationship, important details about which we do not know, and in a moment of despair took her own life with a pistol she knew to be in the Munich apartment. Wyss 00:19, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

I would debate this point. Statistics show that women use firearms as a form of suicide uncommonly as a method of suicide except in the usa where firearms are readily available. even then the rate is 30%. The site using a pistol is to the head, not lung. A firearm injury to the torso is typical of a murder, not suicide even in men. Women commit suicide by poisoning. No autopsy, found 24 hours after the event for a gun shot wound in one of the most highly guarded/restricted people in germany at the time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stephenkennethomara (talk • contribs) 01:37, 14 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Is sex with a half-niece considered to be incest in modern Germany? I know that Roman Catholics need(ed) to obtain a dispensation for Uncle-Niece marriages (Hitler was, or at least started out, as a Catholic).  Also, as late as the 1960's a marriage with a half-niece was not considered incest in California and no doubt other states as well. Ironically, I don't think such marriages are/were considered incestuous in Jewish marriages and I've read that there is an eastern U.S. state where such marriages are still legal for Jews.  An academic observation - If such relationships were not considered incestuous under the laws in effect at the time and place, the label should be removed from the main article.  In any event, Hitler was certainly a misogynist and possibly a latent homosexual.  The one and only time he was seen kissing a woman on the lips was in the bunker shortly before his death.  Hitler viewed women as little more than breeding stock.

Pictures that Hitler did of Geli naked are here: http://www.xs4all.nl/~wimduz/astro/geli1.htm

The article above also states that Geli told her lover that Hitler made her do things that sickened her. I'm not saying there's total evidence of him raping her or beating her, or having her whip or kick him, but there's definitely suspcious circumstances, especially since Geli supposedly committed suicide. Even that could be Hitler's doing.

I do find it odd that an older uncle would have a younger neice pose naked for him, even if it is in an artistic manner.


 * I do agree that in order to innocently paint one's niece naked, one would have to be so immersed in the culture of the Arts, as to be able to listen to the William Tell Overture from beginning to end without once thinking of the Lone Ranger. However...in the best traditions of fairness and balanced reporting, if one wants to blame Hilter for everything, then perhaps they should also "blame" him for the Volkswagen Beetle, singularly the most successful motor car ever. In this bloodyminded world, who ever thinks to balance the happiness that this machine has brought to hundreds of millions of people, against the misery that his political career caused? Only being balanced! (Valhalan (talk) 02:13, 11 March 2011 (UTC))


 * Erm, to paraphrase one historian, this sort of goggle-eyed jabbering says skeins more about the commentators than it does about AH. Gwen Gale 21:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The nature of Hitler's relationship with Geli (huge disparity of ages, servant master role, close family relationship, overly controlling, "smothering" control, violent arguments, connection to suicide etc) has great similarities of the relationship between Hitler's faither and mother. Alice Miller in her studies of child abuse suggests that Hitler was a victim of child abuse who perpetuated the abuse as an abuser in his turn (see http://www.nospank.net/fyog13.htm#introduction). Hitler's mother throughout her life, called her husband uncle. Geli did the same with Hitler. Europe was to pay the price of bringing such a man to high office. John D. Croft (talk) 12:45, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Blatantly Untrue
There's no real evidence (except testimony from Hitler's enemies) that Hitler had a relationship with Raubal. The suicide can easily be accounted for other factors -- let's not forget that it was during the Great Depression, of which Germany was hit extremely hard by. Hitler was just a big meanie everyone wants to slander. Let's not forget that Hitler was also a Homosexual Jew who had one testical. --Korey Kaczynski 21:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * To clarify my above comment (due to a recent case of an overzealous editor), I was trying to point out that rumors about Hitler having sex with Raubel are simply as unbelievable as the claims made of him being gay, Jewish, and having one testical. I wish Gwen the best in life, and hopefully he or she understands my point of view and one day we can be friends. --Korey Kaczynski 22:10, 9 August 2007 (UTC)


 * There is no evidence Hitler was Jewish, or that he had the medical description you describe. There is plenty of evidence he was, politically speaking, as you put it, "a big meanie." It is also true that many well-meaning but perhaps otherwise thoughtless writers find it easiest to simply slander AH like a villain in a cartoon, rendering his popular perception thoroughly useless for recognizing the next murderous, "overly focused" leader of a powerful central government who comes along. As for his relationship with Geli, most serious historians accept the evidence that AH had an intimate relationship with her. This was not unusual. Truth be told, folks have been marrying their cousins through most of human history. AH's father was his mother's uncle. There isn't all that much to read into their kinship and reporting their relationship in this context isn't slander. What is meaningful is that she was one of at least three women who resorted to suicide over him. Cheers. Gwen Gale 22:38, 9 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Who are these "serious historians" who believe Hitler had a relationship with Raubel? I'm certain that the information came directly from the "testimony" of people who were Hitler's political enemies (such as one guy, I forgot his name, who had his brother killed at Hitler's order).  Even one of the external links lists incorrect facts (that Hitler stopped eating meat because it reminded him of Raubel is false -- he was a vegetarian because meat gave him gas).--Korey Kaczynski 22:48, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd like to flip that question. Please cite one widely published historian who has asserted they were not intimate. Gwen Gale 22:56, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * By the bye, I'm afraid you have the cause of AH's reported flatulence muddled. His vegetarianism gave him gas, but after Raubel's death he increasingly stayed with a diet which was, by the standards of that place and time, vegetarian. Gwen Gale 23:13, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Is there any proof of correlation with Raubel's death and him increasing vegetarianism? Either way, the meat supposedly reminding him of Raubel is probably false, unless Hitler made the claim in an effort to be poetic.--Korey Kaczynski 23:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Burden of proof lies on a person making a claim -- and Hitler having sex with Raubal is an extreme claim and seemingly poorly documented. Anyways, I don't know/remember of any specific historians who wrote on the subject other than something I read a long while ago that was far more believable that debunked the claim of Hitler having sex/relationship with Raubal.  Even then, common sense, especially when there's barely any documentation on the matter, suggests that the scandal is highly unlikely and was pushed for propaganda reasons or for authors to make $$$ writing about controversial things. And many of the stories about how Hitler had sex with Raubal (sadomasochism, defecation, etc.) are simply unbelievable, especially since none of other women he was with made any claims of him having such sex, especially Eva Braun, who didn't even sleep in the same bed as the "Fuhrer."--Korey Kaczynski 23:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Since you're making all these claims, please provide citations, WP:V. Gwen Gale 23:25, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's actually more of a claim to say that he did have an "intimate relationship" with her than to ask for proof that he did have such a relationship. While "serious historians" seem to be all in agreement that Hitler was either in love or cared very deeply about his niece, there is certainly no such agreement about any physical relationship, and very reliable sources assert that she did not return his affection in a romantic way, possibly leading to her suicide, which does not either rule out or mean that she had any sort of physical relationship with him.  Here is an example. The burden is actually on an editor that tries to assert that there was definitely a physical relationship to prove that with reliable sources.--Gloriamarie 19:42, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think your reasoned and careful approach is helpful, Gloriamarie. IMHO the overall take you describe on whatever their relationship was (which is to say, what we can infer from the documentation and what we can't) is supported. Gwen Gale 21:59, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Hey Gwen, you seem to be pretending to be incapable of understanding. It is the one who CLAIMS that a sexual relationship took place that need to provide as much proof as possible. NOT the one who is NOT CLAIMING that something like that took place. Now if one went further and explicitly mentions that there was never a sexual relationship then that needs to be proven as much as possible also. Loginigol 11:07, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
 * WP:AGF, WP:NPA, WP:RS and WP:WEIGHT. Cheers. Gwen Gale 00:58, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * By the way Korey...that's "Raubal" and "testicle". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Valhalan (talk • contribs) 01:58, 11 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Much of the "history" written about Raubal is fiction. She was Hitler's neice.  He had a natural responsibility and affection for her. Can it be presumed that all uncles become the lovers of their neices?  There is no evidence that Hitler was anything other than a loving uncle.  I believe that the rumours have two origins - a desire to demonise Hitler (incidentally at Raubal's expense), and the presumption that Hitler was inhuman and incapable of love.  The former is unhistorical and false, the latter also wrong.  There was a loving and affectionate side to Hitler - just as Stalin and Chairman Mao had their good qualities. The "report" that Gregor Strasser had a brief affair with Geli Raubal is without historical evidence.  As for Geli's Catholic burial, what has the fact that Geli, a Catholic, had a Catholic burial anything to do with this alleged affair, except to suggest that this [and presumably therefore the alleged relationship with Hitler] was untrue.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 (talk) 23:43, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The Catholic burial is of note because, at least at the time, a suicide would not normally get one.--77.4.54.137 (talk) 11:25, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

OSS Report
Sounds like no one here has actually read it. This is a pity, especially considering the amount of volleying of pure speculation. Insofar as anyone reading this has the time and interest (and you will need both to complete it), you should consider giving it a go. Most interesting, and really does a fine job of cleaning up this whole discussion. It is of course unimaginable that there will not be those who find the conclusions too offensive for, er, digestion (a post-hoc "sorry!" for any who make the read), but it is after all the official report on the matter from the Office of Strategic Services in D.C., and not just a bunch of "kooks" (well, okay, whatevs, but that's a whole other wikipage). Note to the lazy: If you disagree with the findings, let's skip right past the ad hominem, mkay? Pimpoosh (talk) 06:05, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * This Allied OSS report was complied during World War II. It has a lot of second hand information and bias of the time; it cannot state all is fact as to certain things; but draws conclusions at times. Kierzek (talk) 17:35, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Absolutely — in fact, the report says as much! It also makes plain that the analysis is by no means foolproof, and provides qualification after qualification on the weakest points. Nevertheless (indeed, perhaps because of this), the analysis is pretty spot-on regarding an astonishing amount of unknowns-at-the-time. Remember, this report was drawn not just while Chuckles was still kicking, it was actually done before victory was assured. Talk about putting your neck out there! Anyway, it seemed that the above conversations weren't really going anywhere, so I thought I'd pass along something to read on the Crapper (I kill me! Ho ho)... Pimpoosh (talk) 09:28, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * (OH, er, just to clear up that "response" of mine just above: references are not "second-hand information", they are "sources" — in this particular case, over a thousand of them, all written out, in full, and in gorgeous technicolor in a companion book that came out with the report I mentioned. Moving forward, I'm not quite sure which instance(s) of period bias you refer to, but you're almost certainly right (indeed, I really cannot imagine I could take the report even remotely seriously if it was any other way!)... re: "all is fact", I think I may have actually managed to address that above, and as for the last objection, about "drawing conclusions"... well, I'll have to give that one to ya — particularly as that was the exact and entire raison d'etre for the thing! Mwa!) Pimpoosh (talk) 10:01, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Military history? Of WWII?
This may be a philosophical question, and I can be persuaded either way. Is a biographical sketch of a person who never served in the military, who held no public office, and would be unknown except for her relation to Adolf Hitler, properly considered military history? Even moreso, does it belong in World War II history, given that she died in 1931, well before Hitler came to power? Given the bare facts, I would be inclined to vote otherwise, and regard her as relevant to the general history of Germany, but not to warfare. On the other hand (here is why I can be persuaded), World War II is sometimes regarded as a result of Hitler's mind, and anything that can be said to have affected his mind is therefore fair game for the military historians. My apologies for being indecisive, but I would like to know the opinions of others. PKKloeppel (talk) 00:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * This isn't military history. Gwen Gale (talk) 05:38, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you for stating what I knew to be true. I have removed the WPMILHIST banner. PKKloeppel (talk) 15:07, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Ambiguous reference of pronoun
The article currently contains this wording:


 * Hitler dismissed him as a result but later rehired and promoted him. Maurice later claimed that he "...loved her, but it was a strange affection that did not dare show itself."

Does the "he" in "claimed that he" refer to Maurice or to Hitler?

Rammer (talk) 03:19, 12 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Presumably Hitler, although it is worded badly.Historian932 (talk) 17:15, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
 * This content was removed from the article in January 2012. -- Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 19:52, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

became Hitler's housekeeper; Raubal was 17??? at the time
W.L.Shirer "The Rise and Fall of A.H." reads "In the summer of 1928 H. persuaded...Fr.Angela R. to come from Vienna to keep house...Geli was 20..." - Geli, *1908, would have been 20, not 17. (e.g. de.wikipedia confirms Geli *1908) -- Angela_Hitler reads "In 1928 she and Geli moved to the Berghof...where she became his housekeeper" -- "17" IS mentioned elsewhere (e.g. "Adolf Hitler - Eine Bilanz" (="Hitler: A Profile" (1995)), http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esZHdrCcf8c @ 5:40 ) but seems in error. -- Wda (talk) 20:23, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

B Class assessment
I cross-checked cites to verify the information given in the article. If anything, the cites are understated, as the information given in the article often appears in sources not cited. Prior editors are to be commended for not over-citing and thus "blotting" the text.

In the process, I read the article for grammar, style, and spelling. Supporting materials seem appropriate for text.

I rate this a B Class article.

Georgejdorner (talk) 03:14, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Misquote
There is currently a misquotation on the page. The sentence as it currently appears reads "Historian Ian Kershaw contends that stories circulated at the time as to alleged 'sexual deviant practices ought to be viewed as ... anti-Hitler propaganda'.[5]" and is cited to Kershaw page 219. However, this quote, as written, does not appear on that page. The actual passage from page 219 reads "Whether his involvement with Geli was explicitly sexual cannot be known beyond doubt. Some have hinted at the darkly incestuous relationships in Hitler's ancestry. But lurid stories of deviant sexual practices put about by Otto Strasser ought to be viewed as the fanciful anti-Hitler propaganda of an outright political enemy.... But whether actively sexual or not, Hitler's behaviour towards Geli has all the traits of a strong, latent at least, sexual dependence."(P.219). As you can see, the quote as it currently stands is both quoted incorrectly and a clear misrepresentation of the cited material. I will change it to better reflect the actual quote and to bring it closer in line with what is actually being said in the book. UnequivocalAmbivalence (talk) 23:18, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
 * It's a bit long for a direct quote. Do you think it could be trimmed without distorting the meaning? -- Diannaa (talk) 00:12, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Absolutely! How about something along the lines of... Historian Ian Kershaw, while writing that the "lurid stories of deviant sexual practices put about by Otto Strasser" should be seen as anti-Hitler propaganda considering Strasser's position as a political opponent, maintains that "whether actively sexual or not, Hitler's behaviour towards Geli has all the traits of a strong, latent at least, sexual dependence." (Plus any minor formatting edits that may be needed). Do you think that does a good enough job of preserving the spirit of the quote while cutting down on the length of the direct quotations? UnequivocalAmbivalence (talk) 02:15, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
 * How about this (or am I going too far?): "Rumours immediately began in the media about physical abuse, a possible sexual relationship, and even murder.[1][7] Otto Strasser, a political opponent of Hitler's, was the source of some of the more sensational stories. The historian Ian Kershaw maintains that "whether actively sexual or not, Hitler's behaviour towards Geli has all the traits of a strong, latent at least, sexual dependence.[5]" -- Diannaa (talk) 03:34, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Not too far at all, that sounds perfectly worded to me.UnequivocalAmbivalence (talk) 04:22, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Correcting misinformation regarding Hitler's parents and speculation about his relaitionship with Geli Raubal
On the talk page for Geli Raubal, someone wrote that Adolf Hitler’s father was his mother’s uncle. That is untrue. They were second cousins. (See William Shirer’s The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.) This was and still is one relationship too close for marriage in the Catholic Church (and possibly under Austrian law then, I don’t know). Therefore, they needed a dispensation.

Regarding whether Hitler ever had intercourse with his half-niece, there is no conclusive evidence. I personally think Hitler never had sexual intercourse with anyone. I believe he was a repressed, internally-conflicted homosexual who for the most part used women companions as “beards”, i.e., as a way to deflect suspicion of his true sexual orientation along with his very belated supposed moral condemnation of Röhm and his homosexual SA cohorts. His teenage friend August Kubizek, apparently his only close personal friend ever, later wrote that Hitler always expressed intense jealousy when Kubizek spent time with other friends, although he never acknowledged any sexual relationship with Hitler. I doubt there was one due to Hitler’s fear of physical intimacy and his self-revulsion over his orientation. (Also, there is no indication that Kubizek was gay (he later married twice and had three sons), and therefore Hitler might have feared rejection even if he could have forced himself into such an advance against his inhibitions.)

Hitler had what was at least once considered a classic profile for a male homosexual: a cold and emotionally distant father whom Hitler despised and an overly indulgent mother whom he adored. His infatuation with Geli Raubal was doubtless bred from her strong resemblance to Hitler’s mother. I personally believe that the infatuation was strictly platonic and it wouldn’t surprise me if Hitler died a virgin. He kept Eva Braun (who resembled his half-niece and thus also his idolized mother) at a distance and rarely saw her once the war began.HistoryBuff14 (talk) 20:50, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Speculation about suicide
Read a book on Nazi Women and thought I would add more information about the speculation that Raubal was murdered. My edit was deleted, citing speculation already being mentioned. I see no reason not to add more information when information is available. After all, people come to this page to learn. Thoughts? [] Icemuon (talk) 22:47, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * There's problems with your addition. First, it's a copyright violation, with some of the content lifted directly from the book. Second, the author is not a historian; he's a musician and paranormal researcher. So in my opinion this is not the type of high-quality resource we can use for a citation in this article. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 23:01, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Ok, I accept that it's not a high-quality resource if the author is not a historian (although I checked the bibliography of the book and it appeared legit). I didn't lift the content directly but rephrased it, but now since the revision has been deleted, I can't even check it.Icemuon (talk) 11:22, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Besides the copyright violation, which considering the length of time you have been on Wikipedia (2006), you should know the policy as to same, Icemuon, it is speculation from a poor source and has WP:UNDUE issues. Kierzek (talk) 23:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The length of time I have been on Wikipedia has no pertinence to this matter. It is because of behaviour such as yours, Kierzek, e.g. deleting content without providing a good reason, that I very infrequently edit now.  If you had given a reason such as Diannaa, I would have seen the problem immediately.Icemuon (talk) 11:22, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Icemuon, I did give a good reason in the edit summary of May 22 - "Undid revision the opinion and speculation is already covered", you just did not like it and instead of coming directly to the talk page, you reverted me. So, I then had to invoke WP:BRD. There has been nothing wrong with my "behavior". Kierzek (talk) 12:29, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

When did Hitler declare Raubal was the only woman he had ever loved?
If the source we have doesn't say when he made this declaration, that doesn't mean we can't: because we could, of course, find other sources. I see we now have a bevy of inline cleanup templates at Category:Inline_cleanup_templates, so if another one seems more finely tuned for this case, I'm open to suggestions. --causa sui (talk) 20:50, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Shirer says "To them he declared forever afterward that Geli Raubal was the only woman that he ever loved, and he always spoke of her with the deepest reverence—and often in tears." In other words, it sounds like he spoke of her multiple times, perhaps even often, and made this declaration multiple times. Bullock says similar stuff on page 394 of the 1999 edition: "For the rest of his life he never spoke of Geli without tears coming to his eyes; according to his own statement and a number of witnesses, she was the only woman he ever loved, and there is no reason to doubt this statement." Toland says on page 499 of the 1977 paperback edition: "Hitler was even more revealing to his secretary, Christa Schröder. 'Eva is very nice,' he said, 'but, in my life, only Geli could have inspired in me genuine passion. I can never think of marrying Eva. The only woman I could have tied myself to for life would have been Geli.'" None of these sources give a specific date when he made the statement, and I don't think it is important to date it, especially since he appears to have said it multiple times to multiple people. — Diannaa (talk) 22:52, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Kershaw has nothing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:06, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Date of birth?
Her date of birth is given here as 4th June 1908. On the German-language version of this page, it says 4th of January. Which is correct? Valetude (talk) 07:30, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Ours has a source (Görtemaker 2011 page 43, and I was able to verify the source online) and theirs has no source. So I suggest we will have to leave 4 June as it is sourced content. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 15:02, 27 November 2016 (UTC)