Talk:GemStone IV

Significance
I fear that a reader unfamiliar with this MUD may not walk away from reading this article understanding how this MUD can be differentiated from other MUDS. I have played this MUD quite some time ago, so I very possibly am biased.

-Long runnning game, contiguously : the article mentions that GS is one of the longest-running games around. I think a key element here is that more importantly, it's as well one of the longest running *contiguous* games. By this I mean that a new player could concievably bump into another player's character who the player has been playing for a decade. This element is a distinctive note, as far as I can tell, and is an impressive thing to consider when thinking about multiplayer games with a persistent world.

-Game world size / amount of content : due to the above, the game world has grown endlessly over the years both of a natural pace and as well to give these players who have been playing some characters for very long periods new content to play. So, again, this isnt a World of Warcraft scenario where you hit lvl 60, so to speak, and do something else. Here, the game world has grown constantly to accomodate very very high level people who have played for a long time. Maybe another way to put it is that you could play this game for 20 hours a week, and probably not run out of content for 7-10 years. This again is a fairly distinctive element, due to the longevity of the game.

-Player culture : this may in fact not be terribly distinctive to GS (I dont really know), but the fact that it is a 100 percent player-vs-player game, combined with the fact that I personally had never actually seen a player do so to another player, is quite intriguing. Simply, this game's player culture is quite strong as I percieve it - to such an extent that anyone can attack anyone at any time, and yet it does not even slightly turn into the choas one might expect. Im sure this as much comes from the games longevity, but whatever the cause, it is a fairly impressive element to the game. Dxco 01:06, 15 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree with you.


 * Uptime - Short of a reboot every once in awhile, the game has been running continuously as you said.


 * Amount of Content - An old figure was that it would take about 500 hours of playing to reach level 20 (which is when you get your lord/lady title). That's because of the stepped experience requirements for levels (10k for 0 to 5, 20k for 6 to 10, 30k for 11 to 15, 40k for 16 to 20).  After that, it was a steady 50k per level.  If you're playing to gain experience only you can gain a little over 1k an hour.  That's due to the necessity of resting between hunts to absorb experience, which might be unique in Simutronics games.  Last I knew, there was a level cap put into place at 100.  This caused a decent stir, as some empaths (healers) were a bit over (around 160 for the highest).


 * Player culture - Yeah, the enforcement was from fellow players and NPC police characters in towns and their immediate surroundings.


 * Another interesting aspect of the game was that you could gain levels without killing anything at all (empaths and clerics once they attain the ability to raise the dead).


 * Maybe we can see what we can do?


 * As long as you can do so while maintaining POV and being factual and informative, sure. Ravenswing 07:13, 22 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm unsure why that comment was necessary.


 * I'm unsure why it would be needful of debate. You do not sound like a current or recent player -- the changes you reference as "last you knew" are two and a half years old now, so I'm sure you can appreciate the need for factual accuracy.  Ravenswing 16:32, 23 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I terminated my account last month. I'm aware of the paladin class, having titled one.  I played a bard until almost title after the paladin.  That's after having a legend cleric.  I personally collected data on and documented many gameplay mechanics - especially mathematical formulae.  I can appreciate the need for factual accuracy.  I do not appreciate being told to maintain an NPOV stance or to be factual or informative - that is implied when adding or editing wikipedia.  I am familiar with wikipedia policy.  I may "not sound like a current or recent player" and the tone of your response does not read as very pleasant.  But that does not MEAN that is the case (in either). ( Unsigned comment posted by 65.78.8.9  12:39, January 23, 2006 )

Expansion of article
I've added significantly to the article, and though I'm no expert at Gemstone, I played it for many years off and on. I hope it incorporates some of the concerns you guys show above, particularly the uniqueness of the gaming culture and how it differs from later MMORPGs. 71.202.122.184Jordan Bowen
 * Looks good; the only thing I changed was an inaccuracy about CoL. Ravenswing 17:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * You *do* have to flush yourself down the bathhouse toilet to get into CoL. You pull the chain three times and fall through a tunnel. I thought it was an interesting detail. JordanBowen 23:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You did have to do that. The original CoL HQ was destroyed, and satellite HQs created in other cities, over three years ago now.  Ravenswing 23:39, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * No kidding! That's great, thanks.JordanBowen 03:41, 4 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Heh, and revealing that info would actually be a policy (Simu) violation if you still had an account. Though of course the secret has been out for a while. If anyone needs some help otherwise with this page let me know. I guess some of my characters are among those 10+ year veterans.--Caranorn 22:26, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well ... revealing that info in-game would be, and it's liable to deletion on the Simu boards. Happily, Wikipedia's remit isn't protecting Simu's game secrets ... Ravenswing 07:07, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Clean-up
Cleaned up the sections and removed extraneous/redundant detail.

If there's a need to expand the article to include its "Inspiration," etc., as the previous editor indicated, please make the request in Talk rather than leave a blank section with an "Expand" indicator.


 * The article needs pictures and more links, I think, more than it needs extra length, although someone does need to write about the recent changes in the last few years to the game itself, which are significant, and of which I'm ignorant.JordanBowen


 * I think it could be wise to maintain the philosophy of keeping the article in the present tense. That is, avoiding starting with a description of the game, and then endlessly detailing changes over time. The ideal article would always reflect the state of the game, and separately, if deemed necessary, discuss the significant evolutions the game has undergone.Dxco 04:23, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Mmm ... GSIV remains a text-based game, so I'm unsure where any pictures would come, unless Simu's willing to allow its logos and/or artwork to appear. Ravenswing 18:33, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * About the only pictures that'd make sense would be screenshots of the front-ends over time (like Railien's already existing shot). But there ain't all that much use for that except to actually document what the game looks like (text scroll). That in turn would require actually performing some useful action sequences. But then again, this would only be interesting for those who've never played a text based game.--Caranorn 21:50, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Rewriting
This article needs a fairly significant amount of rewriting, I'm sorry to say. I can't really point at the information and say "this is inaccurate," but nor does it really convey the tone of the game. As an example, the section on GMs being called "gods" isn't really accurate, and that whole section implies a much more frivolous GM attitude than there really is. On another note, there's information that isn't really useful -- for example, the section on Voln and CoL? I don't think that a non-Gemstone player would really find it all that useful.

So here's how I see it. First, this article needs some organization. Specifically, I'd like to see a "Technical Information" section, a "History" section, a "Current Status" section, and a long "Gameplay" section. The Gameplay section is the hardest of course -- what's useful to include, and what isn't? Technical, History, and Status are all quite relevent, but how much should be included in Gameplay for Wikipedia? Offhand, I suggest a few subsections: World, Character, Equipment, Combat and Magic, and Roleplay. I'm going to go ahead and put in a couple portions of History, and I'll through a bit of technical information for the moment. I'll keep working on this for the next couple days, but I'd really like to get most of it rewritten to be more "useful" of an entry. As for pictures, I'll inquire and see what can be used. A FE screenshot is almost certainly acceptable, but maybe something else can be thrown in. 71.198.23.171 10:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that the description of the GameMaster staff is inaccurate. While a minority of the game population may call the GMs "gods", the majority respect the policy that GM characters are not in-genre and are therefore not a part of the game.  While it is true that a minority of the game population uses this term colloquially, I don't feel that it's valuable enough to warrant space in the Wikipedia article.  Furthermore, the description of the activities of the GM staff seemed somewhat denigrating, as though events only occur when the staff wants to spurn a troublemaker.


 * I have updated the paragraph discussing interactions with the GameMaster staff to provide a more accurate representation of the interactions in the game. I expanded slightly on the activities and folded in the blurb on Ebon Gate that was previously just a hanger-on to the article.  Clearly additional clean-up is needed, particularly in the Miscellaneous section, which flows poorly and includes a lot of unnecessary detail.  Hopefully this is a start in the right direction.  -anon 141.211.202.142 (talk) 17:52, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

GSII and ten year claim
Concerning that citation needed tag. What kind of citation would you require here, I don't really see how it could be provided. As a note, I personally already fulfill the second statement (I started playing around 1996 (character Carandraug etc.) and still have an open account (among other characters Caranorn), I also know (personally) a dozen or more other players with as long or longer playing history. Concerning the GSII claim I'm not sure, but the only way to confirm this claim might be to ask Simu, alternatively I could ask a few ICEage players, the problem would then be whether that kind of citation would be valid. An alternative might be to ask a long term Simutronics GM (I believe not GSIII, but she should have better contacts to Simu then I do) whom I know to be a moderator here.

But the best might be to hear why that sentence is put in doubt.--Caranorn 20:06, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Sheesh, *I* have been personally playing the game since 1992, and at this point each and every remaining player active at the time Simu went web-based (1996) are ten-year-plus veterans. Heck, as of the moment I type this (I just checked), there are three GEnie-era veteran characters besides my own logged into the game, never mind players of others.  What kind of "citation" does the fellow figure is possible?    Ravenswing  20:28, 7 April 2007 (UTC)


 * And who are these 'GEnie-era' folks?  Send them greetings from 'Delbert' (from beta-testing times).

The character in question from GSII is "Gremlynn wolfsblood," and her status is well known in the game. This is one of those instances where a citation is very difficult, even if it's well known. For example, a simple google search on "gemstone ii gremlynn" will turn up several message board posts confirming her status, but those aren't appropriate citation locations. I suppose a GS player could thrown it up on their webpage for the sole purpose of providing a citation, but that seems to violate the spirit of the citation in the first place. 67.188.29.176 10:06, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yep a forum wouldn't work, neither I fear would just any website. Best would be Simu's own website (and I doubt they'd give the character name of the player) or an article about GS-II/III/IV. I know I've read the ten year claim regularly in either official Simu documentation and/or articles so we could easily source that. The GS-II bit is the tough one even if it's indeed confirmed.--Caranorn 12:50, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * And furthermore some goober would dispute that on the grounds that it wouldn't be an "independent" source.   Ravenswing  13:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Deletion?!?
Why is there a 'Articles for deletion' notice on the article page? I assume it's a mistake, or vandalism, since it seems to be an entirely different article that's up for deletion. However, in case there's something about the deletion process that I don't understand, I'm posting here first. Marieblasdell 22:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a serious deletion request concerning a large number of games. So I'd recommend anyone with an opinion on the issue go vote or express their opinion on the deletion page.--Caranorn 11:15, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * As much to the point, the article needs more references. If anyone has links or citations to published, reliable sources, come forth with them.  Any awards GS has won should also be mentioned and sourced.    Ravenswing  14:37, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Gemstone series
As the added references talk about Gemstone and Gemstone III and not specifically about Gemstone IV, perhaps this page should represent the whole series? Marasmusine 12:06, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It does represent the entire series, but GS-I through III no longer exist and have transited directly to GS-IV, which is why there'd be little sense in differentiating between them. Essentially the history of GS-IV includes the previous incarnations of the game.--Caranorn 13:28, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I see, thankyou for clarifying that. The content of the article does actually show that, it was just the title that threw me. Marasmusine 09:53, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:GemstoneIV Wizard Screnshot.jpg
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BetacommandBot 09:07, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Anon IP
I've sent a 3RR caution to the anon IP who seems insistent on writing his own soapbox POV into the article; we'll see, but given his (since deleted) incivility, that this isn't the first POV-driven edit war he's been in this month (see Time Trax) and that he's received vandalism warnings, I have a feeling this'll get to AIV. We can but hope.  Ravenswing  16:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Longest-running MMORPG claim
It was one of the first MMORPGs and is one of the longest running online games still active. The citation following this statement was in 2002. Has the game continued to be persistently active from 2002 to present? If so, a citation for that would be helpful. -kotra (talk) 00:12, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * What's the exact definition of a MMORPG? Currently GemStone III has 700 players online during peak times. MUD2 was running back in 1986 while GemStone was launched in 1990 making MUD2 by far a longer running online game, though I don't think MUD2 ever had more than 100 players online during peak time. --Scandum (talk) 14:03, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

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