Talk:Genetic studies on Sami

Typo
Article says 'haplogroup N' is a Y-chromosome, but it's mitochondric DNA. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.123.135.255 (talk) 02:02, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

Sami physical appearance
"Their physical appearance reflects this, varying from very European-looking with blond hair and blue eyes like Finns or Scandinavians, to almost indistinguishable from East Asians, indigenous Siberians, or Inuit."

There are very few Saami who look simillar to Inuits, the idea that the majority of Saami look more Asiatic than other Northern Europeans is a myth, the majority are mostly indistinguishable from other Northern European populations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Taddeiv (talk • contribs) 20:37, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

"Sami Autosomal" section
I removed the following from the above listed section:

The closest of the distant relatives are Finnish people, but this is probably due to more recent immigration of Finnish people into the Sami areas, and the assimilation of the Sami population into the mainstream population in today's Finland (Meinila 2001).

This sentence and this reference have nothing to do with studies of autosomal DNA in Sami populations; both this statement and the journal article it cites concern mtDNA studies. I would have moved this sentence to the "Sami mtDNA" section; however, it would simply reiterate both the sentence about Sami admixture in Northern Finnish populations and its citation.

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The discrepancy of linguistic relationship and not genetic relationship with the Finns have been proved by recent lignuistic research as the result of a language shift from several unknown paleo-european languages to proto-sami language sometime in the iron age (Aikio 2004, Aikio 2006).

Again, these references neither discuss nor concern autosomal DNA studies. In fact, the author of the reference cited does not ever state in the article what kind of genetic studies to which he refers. Most importantly, the author never states that the Sami peoples do not share a genetic relationship with the Finnic peoples, but states instead that the Sami peoples, "...have inherited a significant genetic component from the first non-Uralic settlers of Lapland."

(In speculation, it would seem here that Aikio is referring to the Sami peoples' mtDNA heritage, as the Sami peoples' share in common with many other Finno-Ugric speaking peoples a high degree of y-DNA haplogroup N3 (overall, as in the Finns, it is the primary y-DNA haplogroup). Also, it has been suggested (as stated in the Sami Genetics article) that y-DNA haplogroup I1a, which is also common in Samis, may be the first paternal haplogroup to arrive in Fenno-Scandinavia (thus representative of "the first non-Uralic settlers" and non-Indo-European settlers), and this haplogroup is common not only in Samis, but also Finns, Swedes, and Norwegians.  Finally, the Finnic peoples and languages also share a non-Uralic (i.e. Paleo-European) heritage, but that does not indicate that, as Uralic speakers, they are unrelated to themselves.)

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''It has been speculated that the small founding population overtime was slowly intermixed and that any East-Asian genes, being limited to the initial founder group, were increasing overwealmed from surrounding populations becoming gradually nearly the same as their various European neighbours.

This has no reference, so it unclear whether this actually addresses autosomal DNA.

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However the relative young age of the eastern female hg Z and D5 and male hg N3 among the Sami do not support this idea.

Again, no reference. Also, the haplogroups Z, D5, and N3 refer to mtDNA and y-DNA, not autosomal DNA. Also, I do believe that the appearance of paternal N3 in Fenno-Scandinavia is actually thought to be much older that Z and D5. Basically, we need some references and clarification here.

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The genetic distances between the Sami and the rest of the world are due to adaption, founder effects and genetic drift resulting from their small and isolated population.

Again, we need references. I think the founder effect and genetic drift part of this sentence is correct, but I do not recall (and I could be mistaken) and genetic studies mentions adaption. If nobody else references and/or corrects this sentence, I will do my best to provide a proper citation and return it, and the two sentences above, to the article. Peer Gynt 02:38, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

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I removed the following sentence, which was placed recently in the "Sami Autosomal" section:

 The population splits between the Sami and any other European population is estimated to be more than 10 000 years (Chikhi 1998, Beckman 1996).

Firstly, full references/footnotes of the articles cited were not added to the article. It is very important to do provide a full citation! Thanks.

Okay, the problems with the pulled sentence are so:

1. (While I haven't yet looked up the Chikhi article) the Beckman 1996 article, again, is not a study autosomal DNA, but is, again, a study of mtDNA,  thus misrepresenting/confusing the article by Beckman and also putting this information in the wrong section of the Wiki article. Peer Gynt 06:49, 1 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I have read the Beckman 1996 article, it is largely a summary about classical autosomal markers and mtDNA together with earlier published articles by Beckman about Sami the last 40 decades. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.202.76.147 (talk • contribs) 20:24, 7 October 2007 Please sign your posts on talk pages!

2. In this statement, research of y-DNA is neglected. Sami peoples -- of maternal AND paternal ancestry -- are a result of several different population migrations, at several different times; this is stated in several scholarly articles. Peer Gynt 06:49, 1 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I would be happy if you could contribute with your knowledge to this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.202.76.147 (talk • contribs) 20:24, 7 October 2007 Please sign your posts on talk pages!

3. The information is presented incorrectly anyway, but it should be noted that these sources -- for genetic research -- are quite old.

For example, a 2006 article on mtDNA already referenced as a source in the Sami Genetics Wiki article states:

"The divergence time for the Sami haplogroup V sequences is 7600 YBP (years before present), and for U5b1b1, 5500 YBP amongst Sami and 6600 YBP amongst Sami and Finns."

And, in the same article, regarding other mtDNA haplogroups:

"This suggests that some Sami lineages shared a common ancestor with lineages from the Volga-Ural region as recently as 2700 years ago, indicative of a more recent contribution of people from the Volga-Ural region to the Sami population."Peer Gynt 06:49, 1 October 2007 (UTC)


 * They are old, interpretations may be out of date, but not totally irrelevant. I hope you could please state what is presented incorrectly and do some editing to get this article better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.202.76.147 (talk • contribs) 20:24, 7 October 2007 Please sign your posts on talk pages!


 * Thank you for your responses! (Please sign your name by using four tildes, though, so I know to whom to respond. :)


 * Actually, over a week ago I spent a few hours gathering info and writing for this article, but I've been so busy I haven't ::been able to finish it. Also, I'll get back to this talk page question as soon as I can!


 * Thank you for all your hard work and consideration! Peer Gynt 19:57, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Indigenous
Why was the word 'indigenous' removed from the first sentence of the article? Thanks. Peer Gynt 07:48, 1 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay, nobody's responded to this, so I'm adding 'indigenous' back to the article.


 * The fact that the Sami peoples are indigenous/native to Sapmi is an important factor to take into consideration for population genetics studies (and is important on a political/national level, too.) Peer Gynt 19:57, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I did not remove it, but I remove it again, because the Saami are late reindeer-specialist immigrants from the east around the end of the second millennium BC, based upon all population genetic studies of the last 30 years.2A02:8108:9640:AC3:C82B:94C5:1C9F:D49D (talk) 14:56, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the above sections
Thank you Peer Gynt for your editing of the above two sections. I have been 'looking' at this artical but forgot to 'watch' it. You did some good editing here - take care... Dinkytown (talk) 19:25, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

"Ethnological theories"
I read all about the numerous ethnological theories on the origin of Sami being of Siberian and east Asian ancestors, due to many Sami have light brown or dark hair, the shorter height and huskier body structure and some have slanted eyes. But from the ongoing contact with Scandinavians in Northern Europe, there are mostly high numbers of persons with blond hair, blue eyes and evident "Nordic" appearance. The Sami may lived in northernmost Europe for over 5,000 years or have migrated across the Arctic ocean in boats strong enough to past through summer ice and may inherited genes from other Arctic peoples of Siberia and possibly North America (the Inuit), therefore the Sami may be of mixed racial "Caucasoid" and "Mongoloid" origins. The Sami language is much alike Finnish but was linked to that of other Uralic/Altaic and Turkic languages such as Hungarian and Turkish to indicate the Sami may came from Central Asia and present-day European Russia, thus the Sami are indigenous to Europe before the arrival of Indo-European speaking peoples. + 71.102.5.6 (talk) 04:36, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The "Mongoloid" origins has been largely discredited for several years now. Genetic research showed that Sami are an isolated branch of every other group around them, but closer to 'Nordic' groups than anyone else.  Sami are not Asian, but closer to European.  Paleolithic/Stone Age boats would not be strong enough to take on the Arctic Ocean, especially since there would have been more ice back then (5000+ year ago), and even then there would be the need for a large genetic infusion to show any noticable results from such a crossing.  Archealogical finds show that the Sami were in northern Scandinavia before any other present group.  Language simularities may be a recent adaptation.  There are many threories out there - many contradic each other.  No smoking gun yet.  Dinkytown (talk) 06:43, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I am confused..brown hair also occurs in ethnic Swedes and Finns.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.31.17.222 (talk) 04:09, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Citation needed
Their physical appearance reflects this, varying from very European-looking with blond hair and blue eyes like Finns or Scandinavians, to almost indistinguishable from East Asians, indigenous Siberians, or Inuit?????? no, there are none sami looking like east asian or inuit? we need to open the artikel again so we can get correct information with links. Please open the artikel again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.196.3.211 (talk) 17:53, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, there is! I could provide pictures, but I don't want to violate someones privacy. 129.242.61.221 (talk) 02:56, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Kildin Sami orthography which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 15:03, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Linguistic evidence
In section Y-DNA, I have changed the split from other baltic-fennic languages to 3300, since the given source sets the split to cirka 1300 BC. The source in turn refers to a paper from a conference in May 2010, but Blažek published Fenno-Saamic - the Test of Glottochronology in 2010 aswell. Perhaps a better source?

// 158.174.23.187 (talk) 10:35, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Political conspiratorial language
The last sentence under the section Y-DNA links to an external webpage called www.saamidna.com, containing a summary of some very political and conspiratorial loaded language. I'm not in the position to evaluate the science presented, but I question paragraphs such as this:

"Prehistoric ancestors"

Is it just me that find this link odd?

--84.209.48.85 (talk) 01:51, 5 January 2022 (UTC)