Talk:Genetically modified food/Archive 3

Sales of GM tomato paste in Europe?
"A variant of the FlavrSavr was used by Zeneca to produce tomato paste which was sold in Europe during the summer of 1996."

Hovever "Zeneca" link redirects to apparently has nothing to do with foods of any kind. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.254.208.149 (talk) 14:00, 17 January 2007 (UTC).

Assessment comment
Substituted at 21:21, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Removal of POV paragraph
Original text:

"The majority of commercially available crops are designed to have an agronomic advantage like herbicide tolerance or insect resistance. These traits offer major benefits to the farmer and the environment. Importantly, economic benefits of GM crops in developing countries are more significant compared to industrialised countries because agriculture in these countries is a larger part of the economy, and employs a larger fraction of the labor force, and often agriculture suffers from losses of crops to insects which are remedied in insect protected GM crops. However, in industrialised countries, the consumer benefits from GM traits are mainly indirect, and channeled through their benefits to the environment, including promotion of efficient use of available arable land and water."

"Major benifits to the farmer and the environment" How is this not POV? Ignoring the debates around biodiversity loss, possible unknown health risks, habitation loss and others. Ignoring the debates around the marketing & selling practices of GM producing companies with regards to farmers. Including the terminator gene, the cost of proprietary pesticides & herbicides and the inability to sell the produce due to restrictions in the EU.--Cooper-42 10:01, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

In fact, on re-reading the 'Benifits and risks' sections, I read a number of benifits. No risks are mentioned. 'Fears and 'possibilites', none of which are given the same depth of treatment as the supposed benifits.--Cooper-42 10:04, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I've re-named the section. It never introduced any risks, just the attitudes of various international parties, and so was named incorrectly. I have, for the time being, referred to the GM food controversy article (which itself needs attention by someone more versed in the academics of it all, and just reads like a populist rant on something which has real scientific, political and economic academic concerns)--Cooper-42 10:14, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Getting Involved
Hey there,

After leaving my comments on the talk page sections above, this article really has not improved that much – and still needs considerable attention. Therefore I am just notifying people that I will spend some time trying to bring this very important article up to scratch (and if I have time the linked controversy article too). I will disclose beforehand my particular POV, that I am generally pro-GM (note also though that I am pro-local food and soil rotation but generally anti-organic, am pro-medicine (I am a pharmacist) and anti-alternative medicine, and though pro-GM I am anti-terminator gene – a real mixed bag), but I have no COI, i.e. I do not work for any GM biotech etc… Also I have some experience in dealing with difficult “controversy” based issues over at Waldorf Education and related articles.

Having said that, the following is how I think this article needs to be improved, and unless major objections, I will act upon.


 * 1) Generally clean – i.e. correct wikilinking, formatting, complete references and prose.
 * 2) This article is about GM food, and although the controversies surrounding it are critically important, they should not be as dominant as they are. I agree with Benjiwolf that the controversy section should be small, sharp and to the point, arguing the case on both sides, and then linking to the controversy article. Basically this page should be documenting what the controversial issues are (i.e. secondary sources) and the controversy page should describe them (i.e. using mostly primary research and some secondary sources). Note if I remove any content from the article, I will either replace it into the controversy article, or create a sub page of my user page where the info can be kept unaltered.
 * 3) Unreferenced info. All info/facts in this article must be suitably referenced – for example this anon edit is pretty useless without the references. Where I can easily find the references I will add them, if not I will add  tag (note there are going to be a lot of these – this article has loads of unsupported statements in), and if no reference is forthcoming I will remove the content after reasonable period of time.
 * 4) Lead paragraph is poorly written and not following WP:LEAD will work upon.
 * 5) Reformat sections – a bit messy at the moment, so I suggest the following sections – History/Development, Rationale (i.e. rationale behind use and the proposed benefits – counter claims that these benefits are over hyped can be put in this section too), Controversies (including safety (human/enviro), trade, IP each in separate subsections), Current Products, Polictical/Global Reception.

So here are my ideas. Please note that I do not have the best prose or spelling, so if I make mistakes in this respect please feel free to copyedit my work. I will be adding a To-do list at the top of this talk page – basically a list of things that really need to be done – be free to add to it. Also as talk page discussion expands, I will set up an achieve for past discussions, that have either been resolved or so old that are irrelevant to the current article.

Furthermore not all my edits will be perfect – this article is certainly a work in progress wrt content and format/style, so if I/we try something that does not work – e.g. a particular format and we need to alter it back to a previous format then we can do, but please allow for plenty of flexibility if you do not agree 100% with all the edits, and can we also have plenty of discussion on this talk page if there is any problems or even suggestions.

Look forward to starting. Cheers Lethaniol 11:46, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * This is great idea. Especially the idea that "All info/facts in this article must be suitably referenced". Unfortunately what you are going to find is that it is not possible to find references for some of the pet claims of the anti-GM movement. So you are going to have to exclude these. Then someone that has just been to NGIN or ISIS or some other anti-GM web site is going to come along and either complain about NPOV or is going to totally destroy your good work by droping back in all the unverifiable claims that the anti-GM movement like to make. What is going to be the strategy for dealing with this? Can we have the article blocked to anonymous editors or something like that while it is being worked on?Ttguy 21:31, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I was just looking at the Semi-protection policy. And it could be useful to get this page semi-protected. Semi-protection stops anonymous editors and editors of less than 4 days registration. However, I note that is policy NOT to use semi-protection pre-emptively before vandalism. So I guess we will have to wait for repeated vandalism before we get semi-protection in place.Ttguy 22:25, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Semi-protection will be an option if there is a massive jump in vandalism once the article starts to improve. We will have to see how it goes. Cheers Lethaniol 12:12, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned paragraph in Future developments
In The future developments section after the text Safety testing of these products will also at the same time be necessary to ensure that the perceived benefits will indeed outweigh the perceived and hidden costs of development. there used to be the following paragraph but it did not follow from the previous paragraph.


 * This has led to the United States claiming that bans on the sale of GM products violate free trade agreements and has resulted in trade wars over the requirements for GM food products. Many scientific institutions, even in the European Union and Japan, however, do not judge the risk of unintended changes in composition of GM foods to exceed the risk currently exhibited by conventional crops. 

I am deleting this pargraph but if we can figure out where it belongs we can put it back.

Revert of Greenpeace France link
Please see the info that I have just reverted -. I have done this because I have checked out the Greenpeace France article, and tried to find the link to the article. Greenpeace references this page only and when I try to search for Monsanto or MON863 no resulting are found. Also I have used the ISI WOS to try a more extensive search - but it is the case that this article does not exist yet.

Hence if the research has not yet been published it can not be added to Wikipedia yet. Cheers Lethaniol 17:29, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * This would probably be the issue already discussed on Genetically_modified_food_controversies. So unless there is any new news on this I think we already have this covered. Ttguy 09:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

GM food dangerous to health-safety testing
According to some sources (http://www.projectcensored.org/censored_2007/index.htm), Genetically Modified Food is hazardous to the health of animals. I think this should be mentioned in either the "Safety Testing" part or in a new section.

Non-Member:Ted L 22:37 29 May 2007 (UTC-8)

GM crops and Colony Colapse Disorder in Bees
The article used to contain this text.


 * Some effect of GM crops are known while others are yet to be learned. For example, it has been reported that world population of bees is declining rapidly (Colony Collapse Disorder) possibly due to, among other factors, use of GM crops. Also, in GM crop areas, greatest pollination deficit has been noticed.

The suggestion that GM crops is responsible for colony colapse disorder is speculation. The above text was added by Lakinekaki who claims that the refernces support the claim. The do not support the claim for the following reasons.

1. The articles are published in 2002 and 2004. Colony Colapse Disorder (CCD) is a 2007 phenonmenom. Therefore it is imposible for these two articles to provide any comment as to the cause of CCD.

2. The results reviewed in the Pham-Delègue, M.H. paper are summarised in this document from New Zealands Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry. This document states:
 * "Potential impacts of GM plants on bee health are being actively researched in several countries, including New Zealand. The effects on honey bees of a number of novel proteins which might be expressed in pollen have been determined. No negative effects have been observed thus far for the types of GM plants currently commercially available. Slight negative effects for a small number of novel proteins from GM plants under experimental development have been observed."

3. From the Colony Collapse Disorder Working Group FAQ
 * "Some GMO crops, specifically Bt Corn have been suggested as a potential cause of CCD. While this possibility has not been ruled out, CCD symptoms do not fit what would be expected in Bt affected organisms. For this reason GMO crops are not a “top” priority at the moment."

4. CCD 2007 problem. GM crops 10 years old. Why are GM crops only killing bees now? - Answer - they are not. It is something else.

5. It would appear that Germany - where there are no GM crops - is also experiencing CCD.

6. Since no one knows exactly what causes CCD and there is stuff all reasearch on the problem so far - to suggest any thing a cause must be speculation. And as such it does not belong in an article on GM crops. The speculation rightly belongs in the article on CCD.


 * Hmmm, I think I agree with the deletion Ttguy - to try and incorporate this issue into this article basically requires primary research analysis of the research at hand. If we want to include this issue, better to reference a peer reviewed, review of the current situation. Maybe this issue could be moved to the more peripheral GM_food_controversy? Cheers Lethaniol 14:16, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for correction. One reference I cited does talk about effect on pollination decline. That is also environmental issue, and it is not related to CCD. Lakinekaki 17:25, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

First GM foods
"History of genetically modified foods

The second commercially grown genetically modified food crop was the Flavr Savr tomato, which was made more resistant to rotting by Californian company Calgene..."

OK. So what was the first GM food?

Also, did Motorola borrow the whole 'RAZR' thing from these guys?

WikiReaderer 08:15, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Top
I think genetically modified food is fantastic! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.175.88.55 (talk) 21:08, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I met some inconsistance as regard the amount of agri trade between US and EU. Needs to be checked.

please Tarquin, let me time to restore other edits. It is quite wrong that each saving takes 5 mn too

Most importantly we must realize that foods have been genetically modified for thousand of years. For example the closest relative to corn is a very small plant which used to be considered a type of grass. It is assumed that this extreme change was the result of selective crossbreeding (which is by definition a type of genetic modification). In the early 20th century a breakthrough was made that discovered that genes could be manipulated through controlled doses of radiation (including X-Rays) to a plant or its seeds. This type of genetic modification has been used for generations and has shown no great adverse health problems (e.g. 90% of red grapefruits grown in Texas).........................

.................In order to better discuss this modern issue and distinguish it from institutionalized forms of genetic modification we should dedicate these discussions under the topic of molecularly modified foods, because that is what virtually ALL THESE ARGUMENTS ARE BASED OF OFF.

re molecularly modified foods - the distinction is important to make and this is a source of confusion to many people - when when we speak of genetically modified organisms today, we refer to the action of inserting dna code manually rather than by cross-breeding, as stated above. Chewitup (talk) 06:13, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Link farm
For starters we should delete all the blogs and then see what we have left. Any one against this initial step? David D. (Talk) 05:44, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes that is a very good idea. you should email the people that decided to make this stupid thing okay?? thankyou goodbye.

The future of GM
There's a very interesting article over at the economist about the future of GMO's. The final section of that article has some predictions about GMO production over the next decade and a half. The source is a senior executive from a biotechnology firm, so I guess it could be taken with a pinch of salt.

I never know what is a viable addition anyway, so I'll leave it up to whoever knows if this meets the relevant quality guidelines. Stonegate101 (talk) 22:21, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality
I find this article as a whole to be non-neutral. It heavily over-represents pro-GM views and heavily under-represents concerns about GM foods. There is also an assumption that runs through the article that the science is for the most part supportive of GM food safety and that concerns are emotional or irrational.Glacierman (talk) 09:15, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * This would be because it is and they are. The problem is that the apparent concerns about GM foods are not backed up by any scientific evidence that can be cited. Feel free to present some if you think it exists. Ttguy (talk) 11:06, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

There is a also a serious lack of citation re the scientific evidence relating to health dangers associated with GM. I'll set about doing some work on this.[User:Glacierman|Glacierman]] (talk) 09:15, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * How is it going there with this work. Any luck citing scientific evidence on the health dangers of GM foods. And please do not cite Jeffery Smith. Please cite primary sources. Ttguy (talk) 11:06, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

How does one enter a protest about NPOV?

Glacierman (talk) 09:15, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Simple. Use the tag. Dr.K. (talk) 09:36, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Just add to the top of the whole article or you can use  for the section(s) you wish to designate as POV. Dr.K. (talk) 09:41, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Since we are on the subject you can also check WP:NPOV and this section in particular. Dr.K. (talk) 09:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, this article is very biased and definitely suffers from the "one-sided argument" fallacy. At a minimum, the work of Nobel Prize winner Norman Bourlag, who has saved an estimated 1 billion people from death by starvation should be mentioned. He is very pro-technology. In addition, the narrow definition of GM Foods is an activist tool. Plants have been genetically modified for 10,000 years so give me a break. Every apple, tomato, cauliflower, avocado you eat today come from "genetic modification". I understand the whole mix of this with the issues of family farming but that is a separate issue and should not cloud the discussion of food modification by whatever means. --97.93.40.188 (talk) 08:31, 4 May 2008 (UTC)


 * 97.93.40.188 thinks it is biased against GM foods and Glacierman thinks it biased towards GM foods. Me thinks that this means it is in fact NPOV. Ttguy (talk) 11:09, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

This article is hugely biased towards the anti-GM lobby. As a neutral Biologist who has been studying this subject, this is really quite glaring. It is so bad I think it is deserving of a POV flag. GM Pink Elephant (talk) 14:36, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Add this to "external links"
Genetically Modified Foods: Making the Earth Say Beans http://www.science.psu.edu/journal/Spring2007/GMOFeature.htm

Boyercf (talk) 01:22, 29 March 2008 (UTC)boyercf  3/28/2008

What foods are genetically modified currently?
It seems it is impossible to find information on this: What foods have there been made a genetically modified version of, and are being cultivated? As far as I know, it is only: Corn, Soy, Cotton, Sweet Potatoes. (Or are these just the ones mostly cultivated.. are there genetically modified versions of more foods?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.41.203.226 (talk) 09:34, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I know tomatos are...I think it would be a good idea to see if we can get this kind of information into the article. Jefffire (talk) 10:23, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Food has been "genetically modified" for 10,000 years. Everything we have is a modification. --97.93.40.188 (talk) 08:42, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Genetically modified zucchini??
Hi, just heard from a good friend that zucchini has now been genetically modified, and is being planted in the USA. Is this true? The sources I was able to find from Google were a bit untrustworhty, one of them for example mentioned that not only zucchini but bananas and sweet peppers had also been genetically modified (which might be true, but I dont think they are available to consumers yet) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.79.11.27 (talk) 07:27, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Debate Around the World
Removed the following from the end of the paragraph on Golden rice:

"Although GM crops have the potential to be a crucial element in the solution for global hunger, one must not overlook the daunting fact that GM crops are not fecund. Farmers must buy GM seeds every year which makes them depended on distributors that charge more for GM seeds than regular seeds.  Also seed distribution can be very difficult for countries with poor infrastructure, usually the countries that need them the most. "

While this may may have a place somewhere (although the claim "GM crops are not fecund" seems to be incorrect), it is not relevant to Golden rice. Out Kindly (talk) 19:49, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * This is one of the issues that have caused a big stir, if not relevant to golden rice. GM crops ARE made sterile in many cases, for the very sensible reason that this prevents them spreading their genes around wild relatives. This means the genes added to them are nicely contained and have no chance of disrupting the ecosystem (not that they would all that much damage in the first place, but hey, play safe). The unfortunate consequence of this precaution is that farmers have to buy fresh seed every year, which is obviously not to their economic advantage. Companies will also argue that making their products sterile is important to preserve their intellectual property and profit margins.


 * BTW, this article is appallingly biased towards the anti-GM lobby. Such a high-proflie article being like this is not a good reflection on Wikipedia. It needs some drastic work. GM Pink Elephant (talk) 14:26, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I think we need to diffirentiate the issues here. GM crops are generally speaking (as far as I know) not significantly intrinsicly more sterile then non GM crops. You can of course use Genetic use restriction technology to make the seeds sterile, and this is of interest to both big companies to ensure people need to buy seed from them and ecologists who are concerned about the introduction of GM genes into the environment but this isn't actually substanially used at the current time due to the controversy surrounding it. In any case, this is NOT an intrinsic part of GM. There is nothing instrinsic in GM seeds which stops farmers from growing them and re-using them as they see fit. Of course if the genetic modification of the seed is patented and the patent is recognised where the farmer lives, then it would be a violation for them to grow the seeds without permission regardless of whether the seeds are sterile, but again this is a complete seperate issue from GM. And plant variety rights are used extensively to protect traditionally bred crops anyway. This sort of combining the issues into one is the sort of thing GM opponents like to do, but it is important in the article we don't do that. Opposition to enforced sterility is completely seperate from opposition to GM crops in general. Opposition to the protection of plant varieties is seperate from opposition to GM crops. Nil Einne (talk) 06:59, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality II
Like the author of the "Neutrality" post, I too find this article to be non-neutral. However, I feel it skews to the anti-GM view. Specifically the introduction section, and through wording that is positively charged when speaking of the anti-GM view, and negatively charged when speaking of the pro-GM view.

In addition, this article does not always site sources. Also, there is not discussion on the health benefits/risks of GM food, despite the introduction saying that it was a major controversy. -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.233.3.90 (talk) 22:30, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Seeds of deception
Does that honestly sound like a reliable source? Apteva (talk) 17:43, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

pov
I just cut out this section:
 * "'However this argument is more corporate and political propaganda than reality. Considering that a the GM food supplement L-Tryptophan killed about 100 people and caused 5,000-10,000 to fall sick, many of whom are now permanently disabled. Not to mention the hundreds of agricultural laborers exposed to Bt cotton developed allergic reactions to the GMO cotton. ''"

It seems a little opnionated to say the least. Should be rewritten or remain out of the article. David D. (Talk) 14:18, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think it should remain in. The cause of the EMS/L-Tryptophan isn't that clear and hasn't been clearly linked to the GM bacterium used Nil Einne (talk) 06:43, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

GM crop video debate
Please watch the film here and add it to the external links if you deem it suitable.

Thanks

Willsmore (talk) 16:51, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Rename page to Genetically Engineered Food, redirect Genetically Modified Food
This article states in the opening line "more accurately called genetically engineered foods". Why is this article not labeled Genetically Engineered Food? I would like to suggest we rename the article and set up a redirect for "Genetically Modified Food". If you have any objections, let them be heard.

Jaycorrales (talk) 22:38, 27 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed. In scientific circles genetically modified refers to both conventionally modified and engineered organisms. I'm going to see about moving this article. II  | (t - c) 23:08, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

added some new information
added inforation from studies hat were done by Berkley and the University of MichiganMatsuiny2004 (talk) 12:38, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Archived old discussion
This page was becoming quite a mess, which is a reflection of the mess that the article also is. I've gone ahead an archived all of the old discussion (from 2003 to 2008), as it was just waiting for vandals and biased individuals to come and continue commenting on years-old topics. If something that was previously here is not here now, and you think it is still relevant to the current version of the article, please raise the issue again using the "new section" button at the top of this page. This will put newer sections at the bottom, which is where they should be.

Also, I've left a couple of topics here that I feel are important. The first one is the list of references that were removed from the page in 2005. I don't know if any of them have been restored, or what, but I didn't want the list to get lost in the archive. The remaining topics are those that have received response in 2009. (No edits were made to the page in December 2008, so I didn't have to worry about carry-over topics.) Hopefully, we can keep this talk page clean from now on, as we focus on improving the article itself. &mdash;Gordon P. Hemsley&rarr; &#x2709; 19:42, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

FDA
The following information was recently added to the article's lede and I moved it here for discussion:


 * To add to this list, on September 18th, 2008, the Food and Drug Administration sent a draft guidance for industry on the regulation of genetically engineered (GE) animals under the new animal drug provisions of the Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act (FFDCA). The guidance was titled "The Regulation of Genetically Engineered Animals Containing Heritable rDNA Constructs". This guidance has since been updated, with a final draft created and released January 15th, 2009. This guidance is available for reading at the following website by clicking the ‘Guidance for Industry #187 - Regulation of Genetically Engineered Animals Containing Heritable Recombinant DNA Constructs’ link.  The FDA's Center for Veterinary Medicine (CVM) has been working with developers of GE animals on both early stage and more mature applications. “At this time, it is our intent to hold public scientific advisory committee meetings prior to making decisions on GE animal-related applications" said Bernadette Dunham, D.V.M., Ph.D., director of CVM. The FDA also mentioned that they have “so far not approved or authorized any GE animals for use in food. However, we are reviewing applications requesting approval of GE animals intended for food use. We can not predict when we will complete those reviews, but we will not approve any GE animal for food use unless we find that the food from those GE animals is safe. It would be illegal to introduce food from an unapproved GE animal into the food supply without FDA permission. We work closely with GE animal producers to make sure that they keep good records of their animals and that none enter the food supply without FDA approval.” 

This definitely doesn't belong in the lede and needs significant rewrite and "wikification" to be included anywhere. All it really says is that the FDA hasn't officially come to any conclusions yet (all the discussion is about guidelines and draft proposals) and they intend to study it more, something which could be conveyed with far fewer words. Doc  Tropics  16:43, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Links recently cut -- seeds of deception overview, soil association and Bendrook on the yield effects
Thanks for the recent cleanup Doc. Noticed you removed a couple things which could be discussed:
 * Genetically Modified Ingredients Overview from Seeds of Deception is a nice overview and the percentages that it displays should be investigated further. It provides some sources; the NASS one doesn't seem to have a neat overview like this. We have the information for the UK, but not the U.S. and the rest of the world.


 * UK Organic Group Exposes Myth that Genetically Engineered Crops Have Higher Yields is a well-referenced overview of the yield effects of all major strains. Possibly spun and originally sourced to the Soil Association; however, the yield drag information in nonetheless basically true. Currently this article doesn't discuss yield effects much at all.


 * Bendrook's 1999 report is a decent source on Roundup Ready crops. Yield drags around 6.7%; herbicide applications 2 to 5 times larger. I'm inclined to believe that Vasilikiotis is correct and he was the director of the Board of Ag.


 * Information on the profitability of GMOs is desperately needed. II  | (t - c) 17:54, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi, and thanks for bringing this up on the talkpage! Let me try to address your concerns in order:
 * regarding UK Organic Group Exposes Myth that Genetically Engineered Crops Have Higher Yields, this site seems very questionable to me. They are pretty obviously an anti-GM group and with such a bias I really want a chance to examine their sources. If the sources they are working from are reliable, I'd rather quote them directly. I don't object at all to providing a link to the "Seeds of Destruction" site in the EL section, but I have questions about their use as an RS for references.
 * regarding the second item and its inclusion: I'm not questioning this one as an RS, I'll accept it for that purpose; my issue is with the way the information is presented, which was so misleading as to border on erroneous. As noted in previous sections of this talkpage, the majority of GMOs are not modified for greater yield, but for better flavor, longer shelf-life, resistance to disease, etc. Including the study in this article would require careful handling, and a major rewrite from the previous version, to insure that all this is explained in a clear and balanced fashion. If you feel strongly that the info merits inclusion then I'd be happy to work with you towards a rewrite.
 * regarding Bendrook vs Vasilikiotis and Roundup Ready - um, I honestly don't remember this bit and need to review my own changes more thoroughly. It's entirely possible I screwed up and deleted something unintentionally when I was making other changes.
 * re your suggestion that more info on profitability is needed: yes, I agree strongly!
 * I'll be very happy to further discuss these, or any other points, and to work with you towards producing a high quality article. Thanks again, Doc  Tropics  20:33, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I am reverting your changes I do not see them as accurate. I think it is fair for people to know that there are organic ways of doing this. Removing the information I added makes this article extremely biased. It is controversial as well so I think the information the argument should at least be represented. The link were also credible and refuted some of the points made. Therefore I revert until further discussion. I think this section need some changes made, but ones that make sure whoever sees this should have access to both sides and the point that this is controversial should at least be emphasized. I have tried to do some clean up and temporarily deleted the link mentioned early from the UK and replaced it with direct link there is the study from berkley as wellMatsuiny2004 (talk) 01:48, 27 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Matsuiny2004, I disagree with you very strongly on this: the article is about GM foods. Yes, there is controversy, but it's is mentioned in its own section and has its own article; that's exactly how an article is supposed to be written. This page is not about Organic Farming, nor is it about Organic Alternatives to GM Foods. Such excessive and repeated discussion of Organics vs GM is in direct violation of WP policy regarding Undue weight|undue weight. Your repeated insertions into the article were entirely inappropriate, and removing them was the right thing to do. I'm going to remove them again, hopefully for the last time. Doc   Tropics  04:19, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

You said you would discuss this which you are not doing. The article mentions the yields of GM crops thus it would make sense to compare the yields. I am not biasing the argument I am using data from universities to compare the quantities. The article mentions it in comparison as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Matsuiny2004 (talk • contribs)


 * I left the "Crop Yield" section although it requires significant rewrite. Please understand that while I am willing and even happy to discuss improving the article, WP policies are non-negotiable. The article has a "Controversy" section, and controversy related items goes there, not there and every other paragraph. Info about Organic Farms goes in the article about Organic farms, not here. Doc   Tropics  04:33, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

The crop yield section contains reference to studies by Janet Carpenter "A 2010 article summarised the results of 49 peer reviewed studies on GM crops worldwide.[51][52]" It might be worth pointing out the source of Dr Carpenter's financing is CropLife International, a consortium of biotech companies and associations, or as they put it, "the global federation representing the plant science industry. Our member companies are committed to supporting sustainable agriculture through innovation in crop protection, plant biotechnology and seed production."

I read the undue weight policy and do not see it as applying to what I had put up on green houses. I was not promoting a minority viewpoint I was trying to be comprhensive. Greenhouses are not necessarily related to organic farming. The sentence about strawberries was relevant to greenhouses since they can achieve that without genetic modification. If that is too much of a problem then you could at least remove the reference to the strawberries. You have kept up uncited information, but removed information that I have cited and consider relevant. How is that not biased?Matsuiny2004 (talk) 04:43, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I am not plugging a minority viewpoint just providing info that is well cited and there are many claims in this article about genetic engineering that seem to be making bold claims. Such as the statement about plastics in future developments. It was discussing bio plastics so I saw it appropriate to add. Bioplastics is not considered to be related to organic farming either. So you have made two claims that are not backed by any evidence nor have to do with plugging a minority view.Matsuiny2004 (talk) 04:43, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually after looking at the future developments section and checking the sources they both mention transgenic plants which is actually a seperate article thus not making them relevant to this article at a minimum. I just looked at another citation which discusses forest trees and did not see much if any reference at all to food. Last I checked humans did not eat trees or wood. I saw you reverted, please check your sources. They do not belong hear and you are beginging to contradict yourself. Matsuiny2004 (talk) 05:00, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Here is what I removed

http://www.isb.vt.edu/news/2006/news06.jan.htm#jan0603 Proteomic profiling and unintended effects in genetically modified crops, Sirpa O. Kärenlampi and Satu J. Lehesranta 2006 (this link now refers to genetically modified forests)

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-313X.2008.03431.x|doi=10.1111/j.1365-313X.2008.03431.x|journal=The Plant Journal (dead link)

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/120090040/abstract (links to biopolymers should be in plastics)


 * You have repeatedly removed properly sourced and relevant material and replaced it with highly dubious content that doesn't belong on this page at all. Your editing is highly disruptive, counter-productive, and has consistently lowered the quality of the article. Your comments indicate you have no meaningful grasp of either the subject or wikipedia policies. I need to get some advice and consider the most effective way to proceed. Doc  Tropics  05:24, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I did not replace anything If you noticed I was trying to find the links I removed so you could look at them. The articles specifically mention transgenic plants which is its own article on wikipedia please put them there. You have not even made a case for their relevance.Matsuiny2004 (talk) 05:31, 27 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I have no idea what you are talking about, I didn't insert any information into the article at all, I merely removed unsourced POV and rewrote some bad prose. I haven't added any information of my own, just tried to clean up what is there already. Doc  Tropics  05:42, 27 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Adn I have reverted Matsuiny2004's edits again. There was a nice mix of off-topic undue weight and POV pushing there. I would suggest that this editor discuss his changes and gather talk page consensus on them before trying to reinsert them again. Whether deliberately or not, these edits are turning the entire article into what sounds like a giant controversy section and presents opposing viewpoints as if they were of equal wieght and credibility which they aren't.--Ramdrake (talk) 12:51, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

One of the major problems here is the basic structure of the article. It shouldn't reproduce material that's dealt with in depth in other articles - it should summarise and link. Work out what the main heading are, and then fill them. But also figure out what's covered well in other articles. It isn't just this article that's a mess, it's the whole network as GM articles. Finally, you can't give undue weight to any position.

One thing to bear in mind is that the main comparison isn't GM vs. organic ag, it's GM vs conventional ag. It's certainly appropriate to draw comparisons with organic ag in some places, but things like gene contamination should probably be dealt with in an article about organic ag, and linked to from here. On one hand, articles need appropriate context so that they can stand alone. On the other hand, Wikipedia is hypertext, and we should generally assume that information is only a click away. Guettarda (talk) 14:02, 27 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the help and suggestions! All are good, useful ideas, and Guettarda made an especially relevant point: It's not just this article, but the entire network of related topics that needs attention. We can't just address the probelms here as if they existed in a vacuum. I'm currently involved in a couple of other complicated, time-consuming article cleanups, but now I'm hoping to wrap those up quickly in order to focus more attention on this page and its close cousins. Thaks again, Doc  Tropics  14:44, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I think most of the controversy section on this page should be moved to the actual controversy page and then on this page have a summary of those concepts. I will also point out I did not write it. The only contributions I know of being mine are adding sources to this article such as the crop yield section, splitting off the politics section from the controversy section and splitting the methodology and theories off from the intro. as well as adding some sources in miscellanious places. Matsuiny2004 (talk) 10:11, 28 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Matsuiny, I definitely agree with your suggestion regarding the controvery section. Since we have a complete article on that topic, this section could be trimmed and consolidated to good effect. Feel free to jump right in : )  Doc   Tropics  13:35, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

I think I will soon just might take some time, there is a lot of information :)Matsuiny2004 (talk) 14:40, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

I think we are going to need experts or people who are from the actual section. I am overwhelemd just from reading through it. It is amazing how much has been put into that small section. I think any material that is moved from here will need to be discussed with the people on the controversy section. Having an ecologist as one of the experts could help out. It is part of the controversy as well as what has to do with the other information. I am not good with ecology so it would have to be somebody else. It may help to have a person with a holistic mind set or systems theory background. There seem to be alot of interconnections in this article. Environmental science background and probably by extension environmental genetics background would be helpful too. Matsuiny2004 (talk) 17:48, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

to Ramdrake: It was not the legitimacy of the source that caused me to remove it. It was not seeing the information in the cited source that it was supposedly meant to back up. It may be in the full version, but that requires the person to pay. Either that or you saw something I did not see when reading through the source. If the second reason is the case then I do not have any problems with the use of said source. Matsuiny2004 (talk) 19:06, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

look at bottom of page to see changes that have been made. Matsuiny2004 (talk) 19:09, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

clarifying the article
this section can be used for clarifying the article. Feel free to add.Matsuiny2004 (talk) 10:20, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

I will start off by pointing out that there is overlap with industrial agriculture and genetically modified food as well as overlapping with the concept of agriculture in general. Maybe this article could be clearer by focusing more on what the actual concept of genetically modified food is?Matsuiny2004 (talk) 10:21, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Lets brake down the word genetically modified food for a second. genetic modification in itself is a broad word and I do not think that people really understand what it is. On top of that we have the word food which is another extremely broad concept. I think we can assume the genetic modification being talked about in this article is genetic engineering. That would be much clearer although still broad since genetic engineering is not a fully understood concept either and can encompass many other concepts and ideas.Matsuiny2004 (talk) 10:26, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Some other overlap I see is with bioplastics, biotech which is not so far as I know considered the same as genetic engineering, climate control in farming (greenhouses) and the use of genomes (which does not need to be considered genetic engineering)Matsuiny2004 (talk) 10:43, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

this article has been added to the genetic engineering and environmental issues categoriesMatsuiny2004 (talk) 22:03, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

changes to controversy section
here I will place and explain the changes I have made to the controversy sectionMatsuiny2004 (talk) 15:07, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Here is what it looked like before changes were made http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genetically_modified_food&oldid=280228772

I am still working on it though.This is what I have so far http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genetically_modified_food&oldid=280258869

I am not sure what to do with sources 17 and 18. They seem to deal more with with world hunger, overpopulation, family planning and birth control (these all seem like very broad concepts). These are still important I am just not sure how to connect them to the controversy.

Most of the other information was either uncited or if it was cited I removed dues to confusion, not knowing point it was attempting to achieve, contradiction or redundancy. Matsuiny2004 (talk) 18:56, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Matsuiny2004 (talk) 18:34, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

As said in another section, I think we are going to need experts or people who are from the actual section. I am overwhelemd just from reading through it. It is amazing how much has been put into that small section. I think any material that is moved from here will need to be discussed with the people on the controversy section.Matsuiny2004 (talk) 18:37, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

I will also mention that I think I will leave up summarizing this to the people in the controveersy section or an expert. At this point in time I am not sure how this should be done Matsuiny2004 (talk) 18:41, 28 March 2009 (UTC)


 * What the hell is going on in an edit like this, where tons of material is being removed with no edit summary? Are you even reading the article before editing, because here you add a reference which is already in the article.  II  | (t - c) 05:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Most of it was uncited please feel free to add it back. I am just trying to shorten it. Yes I had to use the same source twice I could not find others. If it is redundant then yes please change my edits. I am no expert.Matsuiny2004 (talk) 14:05, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Groan
"Typically, genetically modified foods are plant products: soybean, corn, canola, and cotton seed oil. For example, a GM food might be a pig..." Typically a pig is a plant? &#0149;Jim 62 sch&#0149; dissera! 19:57, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

The article is a mess as is. If you can find something that says they are plant products or not that would help.Matsuiny2004 (talk) 21:39, 28 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Could we use thread titles which are more descriptive please? II  | (t - c) 05:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Ground rules: use edit summaries, note when references are removed and why
I'm seeing some troubling actions in Matsuiny2004's edits. For example, he copypasted a bunch of information to the crop yields section. I suggest that we set up a basic rule of using edit summaries, otherwise the edits get reverted. Please try to add a basic minimum of formatting for the references. These are just things which will make other people much nicer since they make other people's jobs much less onerous. And try to keep the edits down around 3-5 per day.

what is an edit summary? Maybe we could have a wikify notice for information that has been copypasted?Matsuiny2004 (talk) 14:08, 29 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi, sorry I came across a bit harsh. When you edit, you should see a white box which has the words "Edit summary" above it. Please explain your edit n that box and note when you've removed a reference and why. And please try to do minimum formatting of references -- title, date, author or publisher. II  | (t - c) 20:48, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for explaining :). I think I am leaving the rest up to the others. I just do not think I have the skills to edit this page. I am more the person who adds information and allows others to alter it to the articles needs. In other words I am a researcher. Good luck to the people fixing this page. I can still help if needed especially for citation gathering. although other people will probably need to review it. Matsuiny2004 (talk) 04:16, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Why is cotton listed as a food?
Why is cotton listed in the chart of GM foods? Loves Macs  (talk) 14:22, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Cottonseed oil is why. Loves  Macs  (talk) 16:49, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Risk
Arystarca made two changes (08:20, May 29, 2009), which I undid.

1. He added a qualification, "...people should not be offered food that may carry any degree of risk resulting from genetic modification." I deleted this because the groups he is referencing also object to other sources of additional risk, per their interpretation of the precautionary principle.

2. He deleted the sentence, "This argument assumes that genetically modified foods present risks not present in traditional foodstuffs, which are demonstrably not free of risk." as argumentative. I had placed it there because it explains the logic, since those who object to GM foods believe there are inherent additional risks in all GM foods, while those who do not so object argue that either that there are no such risks or that they are minimal or acceptable. It is not an argument either way.

I hope this satisfactorily explains my changes satisfactorily. --Zeamays (talk) 16:32, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Honestly, the line attempts to diminish the claims of those who have problems with GM foods without a substantive basis (like a source) -- it should be axed or supported.

You are describing the controversy surrounding the use of genetically modified foods, which the line does not really describe or discuss. Furthermore, the most significant concern about GM food arises from the genetic modifications themselves; the modifications foremost fuel concerns about impacts to heirloom seeds and human health.

The line I deleted implies there is a significant risk on the same level or similar to the "assumed risk" of GM foods, which (to my understanding) is not equivalent. Traditional foods grown without the use of chemical fertilizers and pesticides have been have been cultivated and consumed for millenia. So what risks are you trying to keep us aware of? Is it improper food handling? Is it allergies? Either of these situations aren't attributed to a potentially inherent "fault" in traditional food; but the anti-GM side is concerned about the unknown and known inherent "faults" of GM food.

The line is less biased with support and a short discussion rather than a parting shot. But in order to do that, you will have to depart from the heading of the topic. For this reason, I suggested that a mere description of the anti-GM argument would be appropriate and fair, because that is the actual controversy. But if you want to present the pro-GM argument, you should have something to back up the claim that there are risks associated with traditional foods and what those may be.Arystarca (talk) 02:00, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

New Diseases
The whole section on New Diseases seems to me irrelevant to this article. You can only genetically modify organisms, not essential amino acids, as this section appears to claim. I am tempted to delete the whole section. Maproom (talk) 21:47, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It might fit better at dietary supplement. Tim Vickers (talk) 22:30, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I am in total agreement, I read the article and it seems to have nothing to do with GM foods.69.132.43.17 (talk) 09:35, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

I have deleted the section. I have no objection to its content, I just don't think it belongs in this article. Maybe its creators can find an article where it would be appropriate - dietary supplement as suggested above, or tryptophan. Maproom (talk) 13:02, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Gupta "report"
I have removed the summary of this "report" as I cannot find any evidence that it has been published in a reliable source. This was added in Feb 2009 by User:Micyclebicycle. The closest I can find to a source for this text is http://www.indiagminfo.org/four/human%20health.htm, an Indian anti-GM website that described it as a "preliminary investigation". Tim Vickers (talk) 20:00, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

"American Academy of Environmental Medicine"
Why on earth is the article quoting this fringe group in preference over real medical and scientific organisations, such as the AMA or the National Academies? This appears to me to by undue weight at its worst.

I've removed this from the article, I plan on replacing this with a summary of a 2002 report by the Royal Society, probably the oldest and most respected scientific society in the world. Are there any objections to this change? Tim Vickers (talk) 22:58, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Citing the most prominent discussions of the issue sounds about right to me. - 2/0 (cont.) 04:45, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The AAEM is a group that is estranged from mainstream medicine and is not a reliable source on medical topics. My source: (non-free link). It's pretty weird when the best source I can find on a purportedly medical group is in a literary journal. Eubulides (talk) 08:14, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Fully agree with those above. Using the RS RS (Royal Soc RS) would be great. Verbal   chat  11:24, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Agree. I was the one who earlier had inserted the references to show that the AAEM is a fringe group without support from mainstream medical societies. --Zeamays (talk) 14:47, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Very little actual information / numbers on benefits of GMO
Hi, I think the article could do with a bit more detail with regards to evidence of crop performance / economics. Unomi (talk) 14:59, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I inserted the graph showing the adoption of GMO crops by US farmers to address this point. Anti-GMO folks generally seem to ignore the fact that adoption by farmers (who in the US are free to choose what to plant, unlike the situation in some other countries), is the best argument for the value of these seeds. --Zeamays (talk) 14:52, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The graph is excellent, thank you for providing it! Doc  Tropics  15:00, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Deleted section: Developing countries and GM crops
I have deleted this entire section, which was recently added. The section is an exact quote, and although properly referenced, it is copied verbatim from the promotional material for a book ('Undying Promise: Agricultural Biotechnology’s Pro-poor Narrative, Ten Years on' Glover, D. (2009) STEPS Working Paper 15, Brighton: STEPS Centre). Someone might want to summarize the book and provide a discussion of the opposing viewpoint, but this quote was one-sided and promotional in nature. --Zeamays (talk) 01:57, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

seperate into Pro vs Anti links
can this article have its links seperated into pros vs anti gmo links? itd make it easier to understand whats going on rather than jumble them all together, thanks! --64.228.135.70 (talk) 23:03, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

article ideas
this section can be used for article ideasMatsuiny2004 (talk) 10:31, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Maybe it could be added that genetically modified food is a broad concept and then what it encompasses can be explained.Matsuiny2004 (talk) 22:10, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Should the health risks be included in the controversy section?Matsuiny2004 (talk) 22:32, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

I think a good idea would be to add a section talking about GM food regulations. There doesn't seem to exist any article on it. Eroubis (talk) 17:11, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

This was removed with the justification that one of the authors works for Monsanto. The author affiliations from the paper are listed below (in the same order as they are in the paper). Tim Vickers (talk) 21:19, 1 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Pharmacology, Toxicology and Therapeutics, Division of Toxicology, Department of Pharmacology, The University of Kansas Medical Center, 1018A Briedenthal Building, 3901 Rainbow Boulevard, Kansas City, KS 66160-7417, USA


 * Gaylor and Associates, LLC, 453 County Road 212, Eureka Springs, AR 72631, USA


 * Institute of Toxicology and Environmental Hygiene, Technical University of Munich, Hohenbachernsrasse 15-17, D-85354 Freising Weihenstephan, Germany


 * Postgraduate Medical School, University of Surrey, Daphne Jackson Road, Manor Park, Guildford GU2 7WG, United Kingdom


 * Cantox Health Sciences, Inc., Suite 308, 2233 Argentia Road, Mississauga, Ontario, Canada L5N 2X7


 * Cantox is/was (changed name I think) a scientific and regulatory consulting firm whose role is defined as to "protect client interests while helping our clients achieve milestones and bring products to market". He was previously hired for other Monsanto sponsored studies about Glyphosate and Aspartame (IIRC).--Nutriveg (talk) 21:25, 1 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Ian C Munro is currently a professor at the University of Toronto. Tim Vickers (talk) 21:27, 1 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I would advise Nutriveg to avoid making potentially controversial statements about living persons without presenting reliable sources. Regardless of this individual's employment history, authors of scientific papers often have financial interests in their work. If proper peer review is practised, there's no reason to conclude that all work by such authors is unreliable. Keepcalmandcarryon (talk) 22:39, 1 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't think making an mistaken claim about who somebody's employer is really counts as a controversial statement. I've added a note to the article that Monsanto paid for the panel of toxicologists to asses the original paper, which seems reasonable information to include. Tim Vickers (talk) 22:54, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Biofortification
Biofortification should be mentioned, the other GM use is strenghtening of the crop against diseases, ... Links= http://www.harvestplus.org/sites/default/files/HarvestPlus_General_Brochure_2009.pdf http://www.danforthcenter.org/newsmedia/NewsCoverageDetail.asp?nid=253 http://whqlibdoc.who.int/publications/2004/9241546123.pdf Include to article 87.64.39.195 (talk) 10:26, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Bust reference
Source 12 (http://www.basf.com/group/corporate/en/innovations/innovative-solutions/amflora) is broken due to the website being restructured, while I don't have the time to fix it (the article presumably still exists) it needs to repaired. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jarrik32 (talk • contribs) 13:58, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Growing GM crops
Does anybody know what source was used for the sentence:

"Indian national average cotton yields of GM cotton were seven times lower in 2002, because the parental cotton plant used in the genetic engineered variant was not well suited to the climate of India and failed."

There is no reference given.

I also don't understand the English. Seven times lower in 2002...Than what? 2002 was the first year that GM cotton was aiuthorised to be grown commercially in India. A reference Adoption of Bt Cotton and Impact Variability: Insights from India describes how GM cotton gave 34% higher yields than non-GM cotton on average in 2002. The one area where the results were worse for GM cotton was Andhra Pradesh which experienced a drought that year. The underlying germplasm of the three GM hybrids that had been approved in 2002, was not particularly well suited for extreme drought situations. Is this perhaps what the above sentence is referring to? If so, it needs to be re-written. SylviaStanley (talk) 21:32, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

The last sentence in the same paragraph as the above is: "Though controversial and often disputed, economic and environmental benefits of GM cotton in India to the individual farmer have been documented." There are two references given for the "documented benefits" - but no reference for the "often disputed" part. I will try to find a reference for it. However, it must be difficult to dispute the economic benefits if over 80% of the cotton grown in India now is GM cotton. SylviaStanley (talk) 11:17, 25 September 2010 (UTC)