Talk:Genseiryū

Sensei Shukumine's involvement in Genseiryu after 1962
In 1962 Shukumine sensei introduced a further development of Genseiryu which he named Taido. Taido is not to be regarded as Karate, but as a new martial art. This new Budo has a lot of acrobatic movements such as sommersaults and flips. Since leaving Genseiryu in 1962, Shukumine sensei only held a friendly relation with his former students/masters of Genseiryu, but he never took actual part in neither teaching nor examinations.

This is also stated by a Taido-ka, I have contacted. "Officially, Taido was started in 1965 and that is also when he definately left Genseiryu." This is a part of what he wrote te me.

Between the period 1962 and 1965 he completed the five basic principels of Taido, especially the TEN en NEN movements." In the World Taido Championships in Okinawa in 2001, Saiko Shihan asked to the highest Genseiryu senseis (Tosa and others) to convert to Taido." This is also what the Taido-ka wrote to me! So please, for those who are writing untrue stories, back those stories up with true arguments. -- Zzaroc 17:58, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I am sorry to say Mr.Tosa was not invited to that championship. So what you are telling is not true. Sensei Shukumine never had any contact with Tosa after Tosa turned his back on him and started his own commercial Karate organization. Please see also Sensei Shukumine's personal message at a training seminar in The Netherlands with Sensei Kanai and Sensei Konno. Please see the pictures on the Genseiryu website: Taido and Genseiryu people united to celebrate 55 years Genseiryu - 40 years Taido and to commemorate Sensei Shukumine. Besides that there are pictures of Sensei Shukumine teaching several Genseiryu Teachers like Genseiryu Head Instructor Sensei Kanai in Genseiryu Head dojo situated in Ito Japan in 1996. 212.127.137.2 19:37, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Were you at the championship or something?
 * So, if Mr. Tosa never had any contact with Mr. Shukumine after 1962, then please explain these picturse of Mr. Tosa and Mr. Shukumine together on the Brazilian Genseiryu website . -- Zzaroc 22:01, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I am sorry I didn't say Sensei Shukumine had any contact after 1962. I said he didn't had any contact after Sensei Tosa turned his back to Sensei Shukumine. This was after Sensei Shukumine wrote the preface for sensei Tosa's book about Genseiryu Butokukai. And yes I was present at the championship in Okinawa amongst other Genseiryu practitioners from Spain, Denmark, Holland, and Japan. I will try to give also a link with pictures of that event. I need a little time for that I am not an Internet black belt sorry for that. 212.127.137.2 22:53, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * You don't have to be a black belt, when your good, by the way. But take your time, I am patient.
 * But I was wondering. Mr. Tosa published his book in 1984, but there still a picture of him together with Mr. Shukumine in 1985 (I mean those pictures on the Brazilian site). Then there are still a few questionmarks.
 * But by the way, did you know that Mr. Tosa received several letters all over the world, just after Mr. Shukumine died? Those letters were asked for permission if some dojo's could join the organization of Mr. Tosa. Mr. Tosa denied these people to join his organization.
 * There was one person who send such a letter to Mr. Tosa from Holland, and you may guess who.
 * And I have got also another question. Mr. Seiken Shukumine past away to an hart attack. But when did he started to get ill? -- Zzaroc 23:59, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * No a black belt is not needed to have a certain skill. But in most occasion it shows an amount of training effort,time. And as you probably know training effort makes you become more skillfull.


 * I don't know when Mr. Tosa turned his back to sensei Shukumine so maybe my remark that they didn't had any contact shouldn't be done by me because I am not aware of that specific date. So I apologize for that. But I heard this occured in the mid till end '80s.


 * No, I didn't know that Mr. Tosa received several letters from all over the world. I know he claimed to get a letter from Holland. I know he received one which was delivered by someone from Denmark. But I know that the letter was completely different from what is claimed by Mr. Tosa. That is also easy to believe if you are member of a Genseiryu organization in Ito which was directly connected to sensei Shukumine where Sensei Shukumine still gave, in very few occasions, lectures about Genseiryu (pictures are on the way (few days necessary)). So you can imagine you don't beg for acknowledgement by Mr. Tosa who only wants you to train his way, which is very near to Shotokan with the basic kata of Shotokan. This dojo in Holland is not interested in any connection with Mr. Tosa. For what reason, if you want to train Genseiryu the same way as sensei Shukumine taught his students? The Head Instructor of this organization is now Sensei Kanai one of the first students of Sensei Shukumine. In Sensei Shukumine's book "Shin Karatedo Kyohan" there are several pictures of teachers who are still in this group. I met them during the celebrating anniversary of Taido and Genseiryu beginning of this year (Jan. 2005). Many nice teachers who still respect Sensei Shukumine, as should be in the relationship with teacher and student.


 * I was never involved with the sickness of Sensei Shukumine and I don't like to talk about his sickness. I met Mr. Shukumine one time and talked a little bit with him. In Okinawa I only met him from a distance. So I am sorry I can't anwer this question for I didn't have such a close relationship with Sensei Shukumine. -- 212.127.137.2 06:48, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm not intending to edit this, knowing nothing about the subject, but the article should be moved to Genseiryu to keep the case consistent. DJ Clayworth 01:11, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I did this. Maybe the preferred spelling is Gensei-Ryu, Gensei Ryu or Gensei-ryu, but GENSEIRYU is not. DJ Clayworth 01:47, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

''<>''

Unprotecting
This has been protected for weeks and weeks over a petty revert war. I'm unprotecting but I'll be watching closely and I am warning in advance that my threshold for disruptive behavior on this article is low with respect to those two editors, who have apparently spread the edit war to other articles. --Tony Sidaway Talk 17:54, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Misinformation
Since somebody (anonymous user with different ip addresses) keeps deleting information or changing information in the article without a proper foundation, I will add some notes about those changes, to ground my reasons for keep reverting the changes as 'vandalism': -- Mario R 21:26, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) "...but the year 1950 is seen as the beginning of Genseiryu." There is no dispute possible. Genseiryu Netherlands (including me) was in January 2005 invited to the celebration of 55 years of Genseiryu in Tokyo, Japan. Pictures to proof this can be found here:.
 * 2) "...1962 [...] From that point on, sensei Shukumine was mainly involved with Taido and many of his pupils started to train Taido as well. [...] ...and sensei Shukumine was occasionally involved in Genseiryu Karate. [...] ...gave lessons to high rank Genseiryu instructors." Also here there is no discussion possible that he at least occasionally was involved in Genseiryu karate after 1962. Several people that claim to have been given a higher rank in Genseiryu from Shukumine sensei personally, were also invited to the mentioned celebration. If they would have been lying about that, they would not have been invited for sure! Pictures of one of those occasional lessons in Genseiryu can be found here: see pictures 1-2, 1-3 and 1-4.
 * 3) "Some people claim (this is still being investigated by a legal translator though) that the book is mentioning Koryu...". This sentence has been added for more neutrality, to show that it's disputed, but also to show that it is being investigated by a legal translator. As soon as this has been confirmed, the sentence will be adapted.
 * 4) "...where he describes Genseiryu karate techniques". Shukumine sensei invented Genseiryu. He had been developing it since the end of WWII. He did this in solitude. For years and years he trained himself in his own style Genseiryu. Then he taught people in Genseiryu for many years in many dojo. Then he writes a book. WHY would he write about another karate style than the one he had been doing for over 15 years? Besides the fact that he mentioned the name Genseiryu in the book, he does not 'just' show some karate techniques, but Genseiryu karate! It's false propaganda to say this book is not about Genseiryu, and in my opinion this is probably because of the 'promotion' of 'the other' Genseiryu book which was NOT written by Shukumine! I like to point out that this is MY opinion and is not written in the name of WGKF. But I don't think I am wrong, since the anonymous user is again pointing out on Splashes talk page, that this 'other' book is the 'only' book on Genseiryu...
 * 5) "Genseikan" was added by the anonymous user to text several times. This is a different story, but to be short: Genseikan = Genseiryu. The school holding the right to use the name "Genseikan" trains the style "Genseiryu", a bit in the same way as many Wadokai schools train Wadoryu (but I don't want to touch that any further than that, just see Wadokai!). In the context where it was added, it absolutely does not make any sense!
 * 6) "Japan Karate-do and Martial Arts Association". This is a translation of Nippon Karatedo Budo Kyokai... This is NOT the name of a certain karate style, as the writer keeps implying, but to my best knowledge it's an organization that (amongst others???) trains the traditional Genseiryu (old style). I am still doing research on that subject, but placing this name in the same context as Genwakai, Ryounkai, Kenekai makes no sense!
 * 7) "So two years after his death, he appointed a Head Instructor to do this for him". This added remark by the anonymous user shows how uncareful he is with his remarks. HOW CAN A DEAD MAN APPOINT ANYBODY!?! Of course he can NOT! He appointed a head instructor already LONG before he died! The first head instructor (sensei Yamada) was even already dead before HE died! The anonymous user likes to think that all this is not true... Then again, I think that he deliberately added this remark, to make ME look stupid, since on that same talk page of Splash, he accuses ME of saying this myself, where he is the one who put it there himself! Just compare it in the history! Gladly I found this little trick out in time!
 * 8) "Sensei Tosa's organization: Genseiryu-Butokukai". The anonymous user keeps deleting this part of text totally. This is pure vandalism! Stop deleting this! You don't agree? Start a discussion on the discussion page, that's what they are here for!


 * Changed the article because many items added or deleted incorrectly from the version of Mario Roering. Many comments are already mentioned by Mario above--TenChiJin 07:26, 16 August 2005 (UTC)::


 * Thanks for the effort TenChiJin! (Nice name, btw!) I have corrected some (minor) errors and added some information. I know you are also WGKF member and therefore think you are okay with the additionals. Otherwise we can discuss it here or on my talk page? Regards, Mario R 11:37, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Can we try to fix this?
Whilst I am prepared to invest time in this, I would also note that User:JeremyA has also tried counselling both parties, but neither responded to the suggestion that you take this to RfC or RfAr &mdash; this gives the impression you prefer to continue the fight. It is clear that there is unlikely to be a resolution via talk pages, and that the situation has largely degenerated to sterile reverting. Let me present to you the alternatives available, in order of preference:


 * 1) Come to an agreement via the talk pages, or your user talk pages;
 * 2) Try informal mediation;
 * 3) Take the matter to an article-based RfC;
 * 4) Take the matter to a user-behaviour RfC;
 * 5) Request formal mediation at RfM;
 * 6) Take the matter to the Arbitration Committee at RfAr.

Options 1 and 2 show little sign of working. I suspect that, due to the specialist nature of the subject, option 3 would be unlikely to produce much other than alternative forum to fight in. However, it must surely be worth a try. Why not go list the article at RfC for a week or so and see what happens?

Option 2 remains open to you all however. If you can present evidence, externally verifiable, on this talk page to back your claims I would be interested to read it. It sounds as if there must be some way to present both sides of the argument in the same article.

Option 4 is on the way to an Arbitration. It will probably produce comments positive and negative on the behaviour of all parties involved. Reqeusts for Mediation presently have a considerable backlog, but one suppose that, if all the earlier options have failed that it would not be unreasonable to skip that part out. That leaves Arbitration. The Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) generally takes a dim view of edit warring on any article for any reason. It takes a generally dimmer view when all other avenues of cooperation have been exhausted without result. It does not usually determine content issues. So one possible outcome is that both of you are banned from editing either article (under any IP address or account) for a lengthy period; you will probably also be cautioned against making attacks in summaries or edit pages with the threat of blocks if you do. The ArbCom rarely decides completely one way or the other. I would advise that Arbitration be avoided if at all possible.

If you cannot proffer good, referenced evidence in pursuit of option 2, can I invite you to file an article RfC first, give it a week to see if comments are incoming, and take it from there? -Splash 20:20, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

An open letter to the reverting IPs
Wikipedia aims to incoroprate all opinions into its articles. However, this is done through constructive debate aimed at reaching a consensus on the wording of the article. Attempting to force an article to your own version through constant reverting is an overtly aggressive tactic that stifles all debate. All those who attempt constructive debate on this talk page will have their opinions heard. However, those who continue pointless revertion will be treated as petty vandals. I have started, and I intend to continue, blocking such vandals: the only way that you are going to get your voice heard is to enter debate here. JeremyA (talk) 13:55, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Page protection
I've protected this article and WGKF again: I got tired of seeing the endless stream reverts and personal attacks on my watchlist. I don't care who is right or wrong in this; I just want the fighting stopped. Probably what would be best is if both sides were to simply leave the articles alone, and let neutral third parties work on it. --Carnildo 18:57, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Re-protected
I've re-protected this page due to the persistent blind reverting by anon editor(s). JeremyA (talk) 01:16, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Request for Comment
This is to let you know that a Request for Comments has been filed which concerns the conduct of the two principal editors of this article, Peter Lee and Mario Roering. You can find it here: Requests for comment/Peter Lee and Mario Roering. It having now been certified by the two relevant editors and having had the relevant evidence supplied, it is now open for comments.

Please provide a response as you feel appropriate in the assigned section of the article. Please keep discussion to the talk page. Please keep things civil, and be aware that any member of the community is entitled to comment as they see fit. -Splash 03:21, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Slight error in sequencing
"Genseiryu has its roots in an old karate style called Shuri-Te. Some sources speak of Tomari-Te being the source, but the differences were minimal since both styles were derived from Shorin-Ryu."

This bit of the article is inaccurate in that Shorin-Ryu was derived from Shuri-Te and Tomari-Te rather than the other way around.

216.68.35.45 18:14, 14 October 2006 (UTC)Cliff

citations needed
An article of this size needs more that two citations. jmcw (talk) 12:06, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Slow Edit War
Peter Lee and 87.61.137.32, rather than reverting each others text, could you look for reliable sources for the text please? jmcw (talk) 09:42, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * What would in your opinion be reliable sources? I am an eyewitnes to most if not all of these things. I don't think you can get closer to the facts than this. Peter Lee (talk) 10:01, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The opinion of the Wikipedia community is expressed in Reliable_sources. The two main points are Verifiability and No original research. If your eye-witness experiences have been published in a third-party journal reviewed by peers, you are welcome to include the information and the citation. If your eye-witness experiences are the Truth, we must find reliably third-party references. jmcw (talk) 11:18, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That is not possible to my knowledge, as I have stated on numerous occasions both in the past and recently. I have even expressed clear views on the fact, that this page has no place in being included in Wikipedia. Its contents are mainly about an organization or person and the information here is not possible to obtain unless verification can be done by people inside the Genseiryu organization. 99.9% of all information here are written by people who have an official status inside Genseiryu (as myself being president of the GKIF-Europe/Denmark), or eyewitnesses or people who experienced these things personally. I have conducted a nearly 20 years thorough research of Genseiryu and related topics. If this is not enough, Wikipedia could not exist. Thus I have recently set this article up for deletion, but that did not happen. My opinion in that regard still stands. Peter Lee (talk) 18:03, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

87.61.137.32: There is two big organisations in the world that practices Genseiryu Karate in different forms, so both of the organisations should be mentioned in this article, and the edits of this article where started by Peter Lee, if you check your files you can see that this has happen before by the same man. He is trying to write out the other organisation from this article, while i'm trying to keep both organisations in this article. His rewriting this to his own organisations advantage... Just like the last time, when he had an edit war with Mario Roering in this article.... If there can't be a writing from a neutral point of view about this style and a link to a writing about the different masters and organisations like it was before. Then there shouldn't be one.... Stop this "Edit War" mister Lee.... But that's just my opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.61.137.32 (talk) 15:17, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not even going to bother about your accusations. They may rest in peace, and you can swallow them or choke on them as you please. Back to the issue at hand. You are editing the article in a way that has no chance of being verified, but has on many earlier occasions been disputed and disproved by people of the GKIF. The information you put into the article is thus already verified as wrong, and as such have no place here. You also link to pictures on Mario's homepage, which is a disputed site in more ways than one. The information you keep putting into the article, is not objective, but put there to promote the WGKF. The pictures you link to shows only, that Nobuaki Konno's followers visited the founder Seiken Shukumine and had an introductory seminar on Taido. You also state, that there was a joint celebration of Genseiryu in 2005. This is incorrect, as the GKIF was not there. The celebration was between those of Taido and the WGKF only. So if you want to talk about joint celebrations, you should indeed specify who joined and you should specify the reasons for this celebration. Further you should include the information also presenting that of the other party (GKIF). WGKF was established in 2003, which means that in 2005 when the celebration took place, the WGKF was only two years old. Although it is commended that you celebrate Genseiryu together with Taido, there exist only one official Genseiryu organization in the world approved by the Japanese Karate-do Federation. Adding to this, there is no doubt whatsoever about who is the successor of Genseiryu in the karate-world today. The successor is Kunihiko Tosa of the GKIF. Nobuaki Konno and many others have promoted that exact fact for many years prior to them being rejected by the GKIF (Konno in 1996). The ways of the WGKF and their entire organization shows time and time again, both in the past and at present, that the information provided by them are mere propaganda to hide the truth (past) in order to promote a lost cause. I have deleted some parts from the article for the above reasons, and not including any contrary information from the GKIF, thus in no way REPLACING your statements, but simply removing the information all together. If you keep putting it in there, we will have an edit war, which is in no way desirable for anyone. And I am sure that the sysops of Wikipedia will have a fit. So you should try to write the article in a contributing manner, instead of simply commencing in your ever lasting edit war. It sure is funny, that your IP resides in Holland. I would not be surprised at all, if Mario Roering is hiding behind that IP. In any case, your edits and reverts, undoing etc. are in no way beneficial to this article. On the contrary. Peter Lee (talk) 20:01, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I forgot to mention, that on the issue of removing this article completely from Wikipedia I concur. It has no place here. But other people have a different opinion. My reasons for wanting to remove this article may differ from yours, but I too are wishing for a complete removal. Peter Lee (talk) 05:21, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I am totally baffled here. Haven't been on this wiki for a while, and what do I see??? Little shihan Peter Larsen from Denmark, who exchanged his air miles for a black belt in Butokukai Karate, is again ranting, ranting and ranting. Please, DON'T make any false accusations about "hiding behind ip's". There are over 16 million people in Holland. So, now you find ONE ip address from Holland in the history section and it just GOT to be me?!? A little shortsighted, isn't it??? Anyway, I have nothing to hide for!! You on the other hand, Peter LARSEN, are again talking a bunch of BS here, that you could never defend with any proof! I am NOT going into any discussion with you anymore, I am just saying, KEEP ME and MY TEACHERS out of it, unless you can finally cough up some proof for all your false accusations! You recently deleted your whole account here on Wikipedia. Why I don't know. Probably because there's a lot of sensitive material on it that is speaking against you. Now, since you have deleted your account, do everyone a big favour, S T A Y AWAY!!! Mario R 23:32, 17 November 2009 (UTC)