Talk:Geography of kendo

Merging
I think merging this with the main page would make it too long. Unless anyone comes up with some justification for merging, I will remove the merge tag in a couple of days.

Samrionbrijgoah: why do you want to merge the pages?

Francis Bond (talk) 02:11, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

As no one has responded, I am removing the merge tag.

Francis Bond (talk) 06:51, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Why this page was created (and why it shouldn't be deleted)
I removed the following stamp, as I believe the concern to be unjustified, for the reasons laid out below:

dated prod|concern = |month = December|day = 15|year = 2007|time = 01:45|timestamp = 20071215014510


 * it isn't linkspam: the pages linked to are relevant to show the spread of Kendo throughout the world.  Some of the links are also annotated with more information, and I expect more will be over time.


 * The main kendo article is quite long, and already not so focussed, there isn't room for discussion of how and where it is practiced. This information was taken out from the main page some time ago.


 * One of the most common edit/revert cycles to the main kendo page is people adding links to national organizations, and them being removed --- people using wikipedia want this information. It was added to within 24 hours of being created.


 * As I said in the comment when I made this page, it is inspired by the Football (soccer) around the world page. This has at least the same discussion to link ratio as there, so I consider it to be within accepted practice.

Francis Bond (talk) 15:13, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Link Farm
This article is essentially a link farm and needs an extensive re-write. Models should include what is done for Judo, Karate, and Aikido. Listing of every single federation and a whole bunch of individual clubs is not encyclopedic and is best served by the local yellow pages. * the last PROD was removed with reasons given above - I am considering putting this to AfD but would like to hear some comments first.Peter Rehse (talk) 01:39, 26 April 2012 (UTC)


 * As I said above, the model for this is the soccer around the world page, which lists clubs and give more information about them. I don't see how removing this information improves wikipedia in any way at all, and I don't think the Judo, Karate and Aikido pages are particularly good in this respect, they give no idea of the incredible spread of the respective martial arts through out the world.  Saying something is not encyclopedic is considered a poor argument for deletion WP:UNENCYC. I agree that individual clubs should not be listed, only the major organization (or organizations for countries with dueling organizations as is so often the case for martial arts), and that is pretty much what we've got.  So, don't hesitate to remove any links you feel inappropriate (within reason) and add more about the individual organizations or the history of Kendo in each region/country, but I don't think we should lose the page.


 * Finally, I don't consider this to be a link farm: the wikipedia guidelines for linking state "Wikipedia articles about any organization, person, website, or other entity should link to the subject's official site, if any." which seems to me to cover the case we have here. Francis Bond (talk) 03:04, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough. I was considering putting it to AfD debate (to troll for opinions and hopefully get some cleanup) but suspect it would be deleted and don't think that would be the best answer here. The reason I mentioned the other martial arts articles is that they do manage to instill a sense of world wide spread without listing tons of links. I agree that major organizations with significant members are perfectly fine but not every single country and organization. I also note there is a page for European Kendo Federation which seems to duplicate a lot of information and that Judo also has a similar list (also tagged) although it certainly looks much cleaner.Peter Rehse (talk) 04:19, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

I feel that it would be much more palatable if it was fleshed out a bit, consistently formatted and with respect to some of the smaller clubs/grouping trimmed. I will do it slowly so if you don't mind you can curb my enthusiasm.Peter Rehse (talk) 13:49, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

The essence of this article is the information about kendo around the world and not about this article contains external links. If the links are a problem in connection with Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, the links can be removed without erase the information about the organizations. Kontoreg (talk) 16:15, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Merge discussion European Kendo Federation to European Section of Kendo around the world
Can we somehow merge the list for Europe - I am thinking of pointing to the EKF list for links and mentioning the few independent organizations. There are a few extra countries listed in this articles European list that I suspect are also members of EKF that should be moved over there. Prose is always better than lists.Peter Rehse (talk) 06:43, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Why not redirect the EKF to here? That way we will lose the redundancy and keep all the organizations in the same place.  But I have no really strong opinion.  Re prose/list I think it is good to keep things as lists here, it is easier to see the length and look for individual items in a list than prose.  Francis Bond (talk) 12:47, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
 * That could work - we would have to flag EKF members somehow. I have no inherent bias against Lists but admittedly against lots of outside links and definately when there is a level of duplication.  Peter Rehse (talk) 13:26, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, the list in the article European Kendo Federation is an unnecessary duplication of the list in the article Kendo around the world. Kontoreg (talk) 23:22, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Done via a redirect. Added a link to the european Kendo Association to avoid circular redirect and removed the merge tag.  I left the other tags in place because I think we can still make it better.Peter Rehse (talk) 02:57, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

I wonder if moving the European section to the top is a mistake. Leaving it in the European section breaks up the lists a bit (a good thing) and also does that mean the South American text should be moved up as well.Peter Rehse (talk) 11:46, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I can see your point. I have moved the description of EKF from the top back to the European zone. Kontoreg (talk) 10:10, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

The problem with merging non-small articles is that the result is overly large and over time becomes is a tangled mess. Having separate articles provides a useful structure to the information. Derek farn (talk) 10:47, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Except that now you have long duplicated lists so you still have large excessive article with little structure. Either Merge or removed the duplication. My first inclination was to remove the duplication but it had seemed the consensus was to merge. I'll hold off rv'ing the rv for a few days but I think something needs to be done for both articles.Peter Rehse (talk) 10:57, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

I agree with 'Derek farn' the information about EKF will grow in the future. A separate article about EKF will be suitable but it is not necessary to duplicate the list of the kendo federations. Kontoreg (talk) 12:29, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

OK - then from which article do we delete the link list from.Peter Rehse (talk) 01:43, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I still suggest a separate article about European Kendo Federation (EKF) which specifically describes this organization and an article about Kendo around the world where we keep the list of links as a form of index. Kontoreg (talk) 19:43, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I just don't see this page as too long or complicated at the moment. It is fairly long, but has a hyperlinked table of contents, so you can easily jump to where you want. If and when we get a very detailed page on the EKF then I think we should take Kontoreg's suggestion and split that out, leaving the main list here, but for now I don't think it is worth it.  Francis Bond (talk) 01:57, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Fair enough - at the very least it looks better than when I first saw it with some trimming of links and formatting. I do think that some control about entries as discussed below is a good thing at this stage.  Also I think the European Kendo Federation article does have quite some room for expansion - a table of European Championships comes to mind - and if so the list of external links becomes less dominating/painful.Peter Rehse (talk) 03:38, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
 * So, it appears to me that while editors consider that the article could be improved, the proposal to merge the article with the European Kendo Federation article is not supported. If there is no objection, then in a few days I'll remove the merge warning flag. Kendo 66 07:28, 3 July 2012 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kendo 66 (talk • contribs)


 * Actually I was about to remove all tags - we need to fix up the International Organizations a bit/a lot - to remove all that confusion but both articles have come a long way since the tags were first pit in place.Peter Rehse (talk) 07:31, 3 July 2012 (UTC)


 * You beat me to it! Agree with your comments.Kendo 66 07:50, 3 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kendo 66 (talk • contribs)


 * I am confused by the language around the USA site. What does Official mean.Peter Rehse (talk) 07:57, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

How big should a club/organization be to go in?
I think we could do with some guidelines here. As a first suggestion, I would suggest the group that is the national member of the FIK and fields teams to the championships is automatically in. I am not sure of how to judge other organizations. My own experience is with Japan and Australia, but I lived in Queensland for many years (teaching/training in Kendo, playing in the championships, etc.) and never heard of the All Japan Budo Federation - NSD, which appears to be one guy offering Karate, Kendo, Jujitsu, Aikido, Iaido and Kobudo. His current entry in Townsville only lists Judo classes. I also wouldn't add the Queensland Kendo Renmei (the state branch of the Australian Kendo Renmei Organization) or any of the other actual clubs. I don't think these smaller groups are notable. If we really want to be inclusive, we could perhaps note at the entry for the All Japan Budo Federation that it has affiliated dojo in several countries (and maybe list them in its own page when it has one), but they shouldn't be here. Francis Bond (talk) 01:57, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The article 'Kendo around the world' shall not only consider national kendo federations which are member of International Kendo Federation (FIK). No members are 'automatically in' because this is Wikipedia and not FIK! This article must also include a) other international kendo federations, b) national kendo federations which are member of other international kendo federations, c) national kendo federations which are not members of international kendo federations, and d) kendo clubs which are not members of national kendo federations or international kendo federations. (There are not many kendo clubs in the list.) Kontoreg (talk) 23:08, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The basic criteria is notability. Australia is martial arts mad, there are at least 300 clubs listed just in my state, several of which have Kendo in some form.  We should not list them all, only those that are notable.  Strictly speaking this would mean independent coverage in multiple reliable sources.  To simplify this, I suggest that one criteria (but not the only one) should be official membership in FIK (which means the organization is likely to be large, and have several clubs affiliated with it).  (a) and (b) I can see a weak argument for, but (c) and (d) are too loose.  Not being affiliated with a Kendo federation is not an argument for notability.  If I set up a dojo tomorrow, and don't join any other group, should that be listed?  Even for (b) it is easy to give a group an official sounding name, but a federation that consists of one club with one teacher, does not  reach the notability bar without some other evidence. Francis Bond (talk) 23:48, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
 * It is not necessary to include all the kendo clubs which are members of a national kendo federation or international kendo federation because the respective federations already represent these kendo clubs and are listed in the article 'Kendo around the world'.
 * You cannot prove that there are so many clubs in Australia which are practicing kendo without membership of FIK.
 * Your starting point of the criteria is wrong because 'notability' is not the same as the criteria 'majority'. To be member of FIK or other international kendo federations is NOT an argument for notability but an argument for belonging to the majority or the mainstream kendo. In this way you argument for the majority service one-sidedness because you want to exclude all other kendo organizations though they practice kendo or organize kendo clubs.
 * Honestly, how many people do you know who want to set up a dojo tomorrow in order to be list in the article 'Kendo around the world'?
 * In order to consider versatility, the users of Wikipedia shall have access to information about national kendo organizations and kendo groups which belong to the minority. Kontoreg (talk) 13:21, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

International Martial Arts Federation (IMAF)
The article Kendo around the world must include the international organization International Martial Arts Federation (IMAF).

IMAF was established in 1952 in Tokyo, Japan. IMAF is dedicated to the promotion and development of the martial arts worldwide. IMAF is comprised of seven divisions representing the various Japanese martial arts. One of these divisions is Kendo. IMAF defines Kendo as: Kendo, the way of the sword, is a modern martial art based on ancient kenjutsu (the art of swordsmanship). --Kontoreg (talk) 19:40, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I think IMAF looks like a relevant organization (looking at its own page and wiki page), but I would be happier if there were some information about it not from its own page. I have looked in Google news and books, and found nothing.  Would you have some reliable 3rd party sources you could add Kontoreg? Francis Bond (talk) 08:33, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, it is not my problem that you are not satisfied with the information on the official website of International Martial Arts Federation (IMAF). Kontoreg (talk) 20:18, 24 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi Kontoreg, I agree with Francis Bond. I am a kendo player with over twenty years of experience. I also am a member of an internationl kendo committee. In my experience the IMAF and your other like, DHNBK, have no contact at all with the kendo community and are not suitable to be referred to as kendo organisations.Kendo 66 06:24, 25 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi kendo66, I also agree with Francis Bond. It is a matter of course that there exist other international kendo organizations than International Kendo Federation (FIK). For example: International Martial Arts Federation (IMAF), located in Tokyo, Japan, and Zen Nihon Sogo Budo Renmei, located in Kyoto, Japan. Kontoreg (talk) 19:19, 27 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Including an article about IMAF is fine, they exist. But they have no relevance to any other kendo organisation or federations at all. Anyone can create a website and make claims, but where is the proof. There is none. Including IMAF as a kendo organisation is an attempt by Konotoreg to further push his or her POV, that no other editor familiar with kendo shares.Kendo 66 07:02, 3 July 2012 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kendo 66 (talk • contribs)


 * Kendo66, I cannot believe that you are member of International Kendo Federation (FIK) with that attitude and arrogance. I realize that you only want members of FIK on the list which merely supports your POV! I state the facts from the official website of International Martial Arts Federation (IMAF) rather than believing in your assertion. On this video IMAF demonstrates Kendo Kata I repeat:


 * International Martial Arts Federation (IMAF)
 * IMAF is a worldwide organization, established in 1952 in Tokyo, Japan.
 * IMAF is dedicated to the promotion and development of the martial arts of Kendo.
 * IMAF is comprised of seven divisions representing the various Japanese martial arts. One of these divisions is Kendo.
 * IMA defines Kendo as: Kendo, the way of the sword, is a modern martial art based on ancient kenjutsu (the art of swordsmanship).
 * Kontoreg (talk) 23:46, 3 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Believe it.
 * Anyone can claim anything they want on their website, but you know as well as I, that IMAF has no relevance to the activity and organisation of kendo. Their is no other third party independently provided supporting evidence that IMAF is what you claim to be. Kendo 66 00:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Wrong - I respect and recognize IMAF - but you have a problem with your attitude and arrogance.Kontoreg (talk) 18:24, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Dai Nippon Butoku Kai (DNBK)
Following description of Dai Nippon Butoku Kai (DNBK) documents that DNBK has contact to the kendo community and are suitable to be referred to as a kendo organisation.

ABOUT


 * Reference: http://www.dnbk.org/honbu.cfm (Official website of Dai Nippon Butoku Kai (DNBK); visit the 28th June 2012.)

The Dai Nippon Butoku Kai (DNBK) was established in 1895, Kyoto, Japan, under the authority of the Japanese Government and the endorsement of Meiji Emperor.

DNBK authorizes and certifies the martial arts credentials in Kendo.

REPRESENTATIVES


 * Reference: http://www.dnbk.org/representatives.cfm (Official website of Dai Nippon Butoku Kai (DNBK); visit the 28th June 2012.)

Among the representatives of DNBK International Division is Mr. Kim Baylor who is Renshi in Kendo.


 * Reference: http://www.dnbk.org/hofficials.cfm (Official website of Dai Nippon Butoku Kai (DNBK); visit the 28th June 2012.)

Furhermore are Mr. Manabu Adachi, Hanshi, 9th Dan Kendo, and Mr. Masakatsu Tsujino, Hanshi, 9th Dan Kendo advising counsellor of the board.

HISTORY IN CONNECTION TO KENDO


 * Reference: http://www.dnbk.org/history.cfm (Official website of Dai Nippon Butoku Kai (DNBK); visit the 28th June 2012.)

1895: The Dai Nippon Butoku Kai (DNBK) was established in Kyoto, Japan.

1942: DNBK controlled All Japan Kendo Federation and promoted kendo.

1998: The official participants demonstrated the discipline of kendo.

2011: Kendo was conducted in the Kyoto Elite Budo Seminar.

Kontoreg (talk) 23:02, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

United States Martial Arts Federation (USMAF)
Following description of United States Martial Arts Federation (USMAF) documents that USMAF are suitable to be referred to as a kendo organisation.

ABOUT


 * Reference: (Official website of  United States Martial Arts Federation (USMAF); visit the 28th June 2012.)

The United States Martial Arts Federation (USMAF) was founded in1967.

AFFILIATES


 * Reference: http://www.usmaf.org/us/affiliates.htm (Official website of United States Martial Arts Federation (USMAF); visit the 28th June 2012.)

The USMAF is the USA National Member of the Martial Arts International Federation (MAIF).

PROMOTION OF KENDO


 * Reference: http://www.usmaf.org/us/kendo.htm (Official website of United States Martial Arts Federation (USMAF);; visit the 28th June 2012.)

The USMAF has kendo on their program.

Kontoreg (talk) 01:15, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Perspective Please
There is a huge difference between organizing and promoting - and a huge difference in the Kendo membership of the three organizations.

In Japan the International Martial Arts Federation sees itself more as a research institute than a controlling body. For that reason you see Japanese Kendo members that would also be part of the All Japan Kendo Federation. This is true also for Aikido. In the pre-war Dai Nippon Butoku Kai there was an attempt to control everything but this is not true of both organizations now.Peter Rehse (talk) 05:37, 4 July 2012 (UTC)


 * You statement concerning the difference between organizing and promoting is you POV!


 * Furthermore it is your POV that International Martial Arts Federation (IMAF) sees itself more as a research institute than a controlling body. You have no documentation for your POV!


 * Why are you mention aikido? Please keep focus the article 'Kendo around the world' has nothing to do the aikido it is a matter of organization of kendo around the world! I welcome you to extend the article about the organization of aikido around the world in other articles.

90.184.245.38 (talk) 12:02, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Better Picture
It would be nice to show a picture of someone actually doing Kendo - kata or shiai. Perhaps both? The World map just doesn't really say anything to me.Peter Rehse (talk) 05:08, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Citation not needed
The statement above is an attempt to handle an assertion in the article as the assertion was a fact. Immigrantion from Japan is not synonymous with that the recipient countries receive proportional knowledge about kendo traditions. - Kontoreg (talk) 00:30, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Croatia
Actualy, Croatia is a member of the IKF ; please see this page : http://kendo.com/membercountries#europe Cper1 (talk) 07:43, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

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