Talk:George F. Kennan

Centenarian
OK, guys, in less than a month, we get to add this guy to the entry Centenarian.

Annaliese Sorenson is not a Norwegian name. Suggest Anne Lise Sørensen or Anne-Lise Sørensen, or Sørenson. Håkon Rua, Norway


 * Kennan's NYT obituary uses the spelling "Annelise Sorensen." Kennan uses the spelling Soerensen in his memoirs. Russil Wvong 19:15, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Danish person here (familiar with Norwegian). It is commonplace for Scandinavians moving to the US to change their names to follow spelling/naming conventions in their new place of residence. When I lived in the US myself, I would spell my last name with an 'oe' instead of the Danish letter 'ø'. In the past it was also common to change the -sen at the end of last names to 'son'; perhaps because the meaning is the same etymologically speaking. Annelise Sørensen Kennan was born Anna Elisabeth Sørensen, but went by the name Annelise much like Americans call an Edward 'Ted' or a Robert 'Bob'. There would be several different ways of correctly writing the name in Norwegian - Annelise, Anne-Lise and Anne Lise - so I suggest we stick to the spelling used by herself, Annelise. The same goes for her last name - so Sørensen or, as her husband wrote it, Soerensen. Menocl (talk) 13:44, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

polygamy
The article says "Kennan was married to Grace Kennan Warneke", without saying whether this was before or after "he married the Norwegian Annaliese Sorenson", or whether and when he divorced either of them.


 * Grace Kennan Warnecke is one of his daughters, not his wife. The error appears to have been introduced by a misreading of the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel obituary. Russil Wvong 19:15, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

New section on Kennan's influence
Can we discuss the section on Kennan's influence here, before adding it to the article? I have a number of comments:


 * Trying to summarize Kennan's influence on US foreign policy is going to be a major undertaking, because (a) Kennan was such a prolific writer, and (b) untangling the influence of different individuals on policy is always difficult.  Besides the numerous obituaries, a good starting point would be Wilson Miscamble's George F. Kennan and the Making of American Foreign Policy, 1947-1950.


 * In particular, the first paragraph makes use of a misleading quotation] from PPS/23. It's simply wrong to describe this as Kennan's most significant idea.


 * I think the reference to "John Gaddes" is supposed to be "John Lewis Gaddis."

Russil Wvong 23:50, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * It's kind of bad form to delete wholesale if the addition was made in good faith, which it looks like it was, irrespective of accuracy. It usually works better to prune mistakes and have a sketchier section, than to try and achieve perfection outside of the article and add it all at once. A summary would only be a major undertaking if it were long, and unless you have such a one waiting in the wings, we can just make do with fixing the anon's verbiage. Stan 01:27, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the feedback, Stan (I'm new to Wikipedia). I'll restore the section and edit it there. Russil Wvong 18:19, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Long Telegram
Can the Long Telegram entry be developed - and linked too/from here.
 * Agreed. Both X article and Long Telegram are too long to be in here as they are currently written.  They should be spun off and linked to as "Main article: Long telegram" or whatever. Dave (talk)

The long telegram article seems too short by itself, and it seems so linked to his philosophy - can there be some compromise?

Article by 172
Excellent article by 172.

I did notice some minor errors. For example, the X article was signed "X", not "Mr. X". Russil Wvong 01:17, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This strange place called Wikipedia seems to work...
Even though I did not knew much of Kennan I added some words after reading about his death. Within a few days the article evolved and expanded just like that! This is really impressive - and makes one believe this site can both produce quantity and quality. Ulflarsen 18:20, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Problems in Harry491's revisions
172 18:23, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * You moved up in the intro the note that he later became a leading realist critic of U.S. foreign policy. This part of the intro belongs toward the bottom, as a statement summing up the last phase of his career as a scholar at Princeton.
 * The first paragraph is for what he's known for. He's known for both his early career and his later work.   Dave (talk)
 * Yes, but he is known far more for his early work than his career at Princeton. 172 19:29, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I would disagree; his later works are standard histories of diplomacy with Russia; the X telegram is an incident in that history. Septentrionalis 01:40, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
 * You removed the reference to the longevity of Kennan and his wife in the intro. But he published well into his 90s, still giving insights into his own career in the foreign serivce, which began in the 1920s. This is a biographical article, so this is certainly worthy of reference.
 * The wording of the longevity issue was poor. I'll put it back in with better wording. Dave (talk)
 * That his uncle was also a leading authority on Russian politics in his own era is worthy of note. Following your edits, Kennan's uncle was not mentioned once in the article.
 * The wording "followed in his footsteps" with no explanation was misleading. I'll put a reference to his uncle back in, but without the vague "footsteps" note or with some kind of qualifer. Dave (talk)
 * You added the following: "At the 'bottom of the Kremlin's neurotic view of world affairs,' RKennan argued, 'is the traditional and instinctive Russian sense of insecurity' that developed as a result of repeated invasions over centuries. Your addition of "...as a result of repeated invasions over centuries" makes the sentence flat out wrong. It may be your view, but it was not the view articulated in the Long Telegram. Kennan linked the Kremlin's view of world affairs to the nature of the Soviet political system, arguing that it needed the rationale of a hostile external world to legitimate Stalinist dictatorship.
 * Actually, you're "flat out wrong. The "traditional and instinctive Russian sense of insecurity" goes back well past the Soviet era (that's why it's "traditional and instinctive.").  I'll add the rest of the quote which explains the reasons for the neurosis: "At the bottom of the Kremlin's neurotic view of world affairs is traditional and instinctive Russian sense of insecurity. Originally, this was insecurity of a peaceful agricultural people trying to live on vast exposed plain in neighborhood of fierce nomadic peoples. To this was added, as Russia came into contact with economically advanced West, fear of more competent, more powerful, more highly organized societies in that area." Dave (talk) (Additionally, he said "they have always feared foreign penetration..." which further supports my version). Dave (talk)
 * No. Calling it a 'traditional sense of Russian insecurity' does not contradict his argument linking their neurotic worldview to the nature of the Soviet politics; he felt that the Tsars also needed a hostile world order to justify their own autocratic world. Can you provide a source supporting your take on Kennan's writing? Otherwise, your original research ought to be reverted again. 172 19:29, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * It is unclear why you are removing the tenth footnote.
 * I removed the tenth footnote because I also removed the quote that it was associated with. The bit about "few attempts [made] to explain the distinction between Soviet influence and the international Communist movement to the U.S. public" is not relevante to Kennan as written and
 * Yes, it is. Gaddis' comment, made after decades in hindsight, supports Kennan's own view at the time. 172 19:29, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * You removed the paragraph on engineering a rift in the Communist world, a very important component of his strategy of containment.
 * This is not related to the X article, and is mentioned in the following section, where it is relevant. Dave (talk)
 * In the future, please fix issues you see individually rather than deleting dozens of useful additions to get rid of a few problems. Dave (talk)
 * The other additions were not too helpful. You seem to be changing things all over the place to make them correspond with your own stylistic preferences, but they do not correspond with the style consistent throughout the article. 172 19:29, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I hope I addressed everything. If I didn't, please fix them individually instead of mass reverting dozens of good faith copyedits, wording changes, clarifications, and additions. Dave (talk) 18:45, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)

I've decided to give up this article. You can do with it as you please. See User:172's talk page if you're interested in my reasoning. Dave (talk) 20:57, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)

General comment
Less Gaddis and more Kennan would improve both the content and, to my taste, the style. Septentrionalis 01:40, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

InterWiki Links needed
I just corrected The Long Telegram and Sources of Soviet to WikiSource. I have no idea how to make an interWiki link.Paul, in Saudi 04:17, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Incomplete quotation
"So far as I could see, we were expecting to be able to gain our objectives... without making any concessions thought, only "if we were really all-powerful, and could hope to get away with it. I very much doubted that this was the case." (I wasn't sure where to put the missing quotation mark.)  Eric 09:53, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Name Pronunciation
Is Kennan's last name pronounced KEN-AN or KEEN-AN, or something else? Thanks Jimaginator 12:09, August 18, 2005 (UTC)


 * It's KEN-an. Russil Wvong 17:35, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Long lived public figures
Could a list of these be created? Manny Shinwell and Elizabeth, the Queen Mother would be included, but not, necessarily, the long lived Princess (forget name - Alice, Alexandria...).

The criteria would include being active/visible until well into advanced age (as both the above were).

Historical assessment
Just a few small modifications to the language and punctuation. No problem if they're kept or rolled back. 192.115.144.17 17:18, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Kenan quotes
I feel some portion of these quotes should be included in the article:

QUOTE 1

Furthermore, we have about 50% of the world's wealth but only 6.3% of its population. This disparity is particularly great as between ourselves and the peoples of Asia. In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment. Our real task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity without positive detriment to our national security. To do so, we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming; and our attention will have to be concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives. We need not deceive ourselves that we can afford today the luxury of altruism and world-benefaction...

...In the face of this situation we would be better off to dispense now with a number of the concepts which have underlined our thinking with regard to the Far East. We should dispense with the aspiration to 'be linked' or to be regarded as the repository of a high-minded international altruism. We should stop putting ourselves in the position of being our brothers' keeper and refrain from offering moral and ideological advice. We should cease to talk about vague--and for the Far East--unreal objectives such as human rights, the raising of the living standards, and democratization. The day is not far off when we are going to have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are hampered by idealistic slogans, the better


 * ''Memo by George Kennan, Head of the US State Department Policy Planning Staff. Written February 28, 1948, Declassified June 17, 1974. George Kennan, "Review of Current Trends, U.S. Foreign Policy, Policy Planning Staff, PPS No. 23. Top Secret. Included in the U.S. Department of State, Foreign Relations of the United States, 1948, volume 1, part 2 (Washington DC Government Printing Office, 1976), 524-525. Full text found on wikisource.

QUOTE 2

In March 1950, the State Department's expert on Soviet Affairs, George Kennan, flew to Rio de Janeiro to meet with U.S. ambassadors in South America. After a wide-ranging and often outspoken survey of world events, Kennan outlined how Latin America fit into U.S. policy:


 * 1. The protection of our [sic] raw materials;


 * 2. The prevention of military exploitation of Latin America by the enemy; and,


 * 3. The prevention of the psychological mobilization of Latin America against us.

If Europe turned anti-U.S., he observed, "Latin America would be all we would be all we would have to fall back on." Unfortunately "our relations with the Latin America were not sufficiently good to stand a serious rocking of the boat elsewhere." Under no circumstances, Kennan warned the ambassadors, must Communists be allowed in power :

"'The final answer may be an unpleasant one, but...we should not hesitate before police repression by the local government. This is not shameful since the Communists are estentially traitors...it is better to have a strong regime in power than a liberal government if it is indulgent and relaxed and penetrated by Communists.'"


 * ''Walter Lafeber, Inevitable Revolutions: The United States in Central America (1993 W. W. Norton & Company). p 108-109


 *  From 2nd Regional Conference of U.S. Chiefs of Mission, Rio ... 1950," Inter-American Economic Affairs Committee, 1945-1950, Box 5, National Archives, Record Group 353.


 * ''Last "unpleasant" quote also quoted in:


 * ''Robert A. Pollard Economic Security and the Origins of the Cold War, 1945-1950 April 1985, p 212


 * ''Latin America between the Second World War and the Cold War: Some Reflections on the 1945-8 Conjuncture Leslie Bethell; Ian Roxborough Journal of Latin American Studies Vol. 20, No. 1 (May, 1988), p. 183

Signed:Travb 07:42, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Take the quotations to Wikiquote. Random quotations (that people like Blum and Chomsky like to quote out of context) are irrelevant in the article, though. 172 | Talk 07:42, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Why shouldn't they be included? They are quite relevant to determine this man's character. They are certainly more revealing than saying subject X was born in date A and died on date B. We must produce objective and relevant articles, but we can't allow censorship. If the quotes are in fact, his, we should include them, with comprehensive text detailing the settings that might have led this man to say it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pedro magalhaes86 (talk • contribs) 18:22, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Not 8,000 words
It doesn't seem like the "long telegram" actually is 8000 words long, as stated in this article and on numerous other places. I copied it (from here) into MS Word, and checked its statistics, which said 5328 words. This is also confirmed here: http://www.princeton.edu/~paw/web_exclusives/plus/plus_042005telegram.html. Vints 14:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

NSC-68
From the section "Differences with Acheson": "As a result of these criticisms, he lost influence with Acheson, who in any case relied much less on his staff than Marshall had. Acheson finally replaced Kennan with Nitze as director of policy planning in 1950, who was far more comfortable with the calculus of military power. " This is not correct! Nitze was appointed Director of the Policy Planning Staff in January 1, 1950, before the Korean War and before the NSC-68 was written. NSC-68 was written by Paul Nitze February-April 1950. Vints 11:40, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I wrote the correct dates of Kennans resignation (Dec 49) and Nitzes appointment (Jan 50). See here and here. Maybe the paragraph needs to be rearranged now. Vints 16:50, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

We should mention that Kennan was Charge d'Affairs of the American Legation in Lisbon, Portugal. Kennan met U.S. Allied Airmen who were interned in neutral Portugal. I have one document signed by Kennan to attest to this fact (dated August 5, 1943). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.33.94.227 (talk • contribs)

He describes his service in Lisbon at some length in his first volume of Memoirs. He played a moderate role in negotiating American basing rights in the Azores during the Second World War Rhydderch69 11:32, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, note that Kennan did not actually retire from the Foreign Service until 1953; rather, from early in Acheson's tenure he took a number of leaves of absence and "sabbaticals." His role between 1949 and 1953 was best described as consultative.Rhydderch69 11:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

"Gave rise to the Truman Doctrine"?
I doubt that the statement in the lead: "During his term as the U.S. State Department's first director of the Policy Planning Staff in the late 1940s, his writings gave rise to the Truman Doctrine" is correct. Kennan was appointed director of Policy Planning Staff in April 1947 and Truman's speech to the Congress was in March 12. This article (John O. Iatrides, George F. Kennan and the Birth of Containment: The Greek Test Case) calls Kennan's role in the formulation of the Truman Doctrine marginal, and Miscamble writes: "Kennan played a tangential role and unsuccessfully objected to the sweeping language of the message drafted for President Truman to deliver to Congress on March 12, 1947." Vints 15:09, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Moreover, as the article itself quotes Kennan as saying: "My thoughts about containment were of course distorted by the people who understood it and pursued it exclusively as a military concept; and I think that that, as much as any other cause, led to [the] 40 years of unnecessary, fearfully expensive and disoriented process of the Cold War." You could say that Kennan's ideas were taken up in part and adapted, but it would be more accurate to say that Kennan's ideas were ignored than that they gave rise to the Truman Doctrine. 94.192.97.173 (talk) 22:45, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Economic containment
It's not in the true spirit of Kennan this article is wrote!! It's Bullocks. He was not the inventer of the containment that truman applied. Kennan was the inventor of economic containment, but his ideas where twisted by Paul Nietzsche an early time Wolfowitz! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.144.179.51 (talk • contribs) 09:58, 17 November 2006

Diploma?
"Shortly after the diploma had been enshrined as official U.S. policy, Kennan began to criticize the policies that he had seemingly helped launch." Should "diploma" be changed to "Truman Doctrine"?--Vints 14:20, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

George Kennan: The Conscience of America
John Lukacs on George Kennan: The Conscience of America Posted 1 May 2007

Yale University Press has published a small gem of a book, John Lukacs's George Kennan: A Study in Character. Reading it was both a delight and surprise.

See complete article at http://www.walter-c-uhler.com/Reviews/conscience.html

I found Kennan's letter to his nephew particularly fascinating. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.19.14.37 (talk) 09:56, 3 May 2007 (UTC).

Political cruft
I have removed four proponents of various smelly little orthodoxies who hopped on Kennan's funeral car to use him as a stock figure in their several melodramas.

This article is already long. If Wikipedia really needs to discuss the views of the likes of John Lewis Gaddis, Walter L. Hixson, Carl Estabrook, or Alexander Cockburn (or, for that matter, John Lukacs, above) it should do so in their own articles; doubtless in a century, readers will need to consult an encyclopedia to find out who people like Gaddis or Cockburn were. Some of them are quoted as seeing Kennan as an amoral Realist and so a Hero; others as an amoral realist and so a Villian. None of them are useful here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:42, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not familiar with these historians, but what exactly is the problem with referring to their assessments on Kennan's policy in this article? Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 16:14, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I echo Nishkid64's query. Plus, I am not an expert on Cold War history, but I know that John Lewis Gaddis at least is one of the preeminent Cold War historians; his views were standard reading during my A-level history course in the UK.  As a result, I am hesitant to cast off lightly his opinions on Kennan, and the same may go for the other historians noted. Otumba (talk) 01:53, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * All three with articles are strongly, and contrastingly, opinionated (and it reads like the other two are too, although I haven't seen their works). None of what they say is (or is likely ever to be) consensus, on either side. A's construct about B belongs in A's article, not B's. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:44, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Kennantito.jpg
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BetacommandBot (talk) 22:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Mother's name
George Kennan was born in 1904. To call his mother Florence James at that date is to imply that she was an extraordinary suffragette, or that Kennan was illegitimate. I doubt either is intended, but if either is, it should be explained. (And, before 1926, the correct spelling is Cassell, which should redirect). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:51, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Neither is supported by Isaacson and Thomas, as cited. It could be more widely used; as could Kennan's autobiography, which is (by the nature of the case) the only real source for his feelings as an undergraduate. The only function of secondary sources on such matters is to be skeptical - if Gaddis is not, he adds nothing. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:39, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

potential resource, book by John Lewis Gaddis
Ideas Man; The Legacy of George F. Kennan Review by Nicholas Thompson January/February 2012 Foreign Affairs

99.19.44.155 (talk) 16:04, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Fascist Spain?
Referring to Franco's regime as a fascist one is an easy and unfair cliché that seems inappropriate for a featured article. Franco's regime was the result of an atrocious fight against communism, in its peculiar spanish version. It was certainly dictatorial and authoritarian, but also deeply traditionalist and anti-revolutionary, and a transitional regime too, bound to end with Franco's death, hopefully having spanish people got ready to live in a mature and predictable democracy. I kindly suggest to substitute 'fascist' for 'dictatorial', 'anticommunist', or other qualifier fit to the truth. --88.15.71.61 (talk) 09:52, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
 * It's reasonably standard in the RS: see Fascism in Spain, 1923-1977 by Professor Stanley G. Payne (1999); Latin fascist elites: the Mussolini, Franco, and Salazar regimes by Paul H. Lewis - 2002; "The Spanish dictator General Francisco Franco, for example, is often considered fascist because of his armed conquest of power in the Spanish Civil War with the overt aid of Mussolini and Hitler." says Robert O. Paxton. The Anatomy Of Fascism - 2005 p 149. Payne says, "His regime was an eclectic mixture of a right-wing military elite, a fascist state party (the Falange, or FET)". Rjensen (talk) 14:06, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

The "other" Kennan
I am somewhat surprised that in this biography of Kennan there is nothing about his contribution to the active operation of "rolling back" Communism that was initially started inside the State Dept. and later continued by the OPC under Frank Wisner and Co. Although I don't have the references at hand, there is a book, I believe entitled "Roll Back," about his role. I also found on the net, although I don't currently have it, a recommendation signed by Kennan to help the former Nazi ambassador to the Soviet Union find asylum inside the United States with his family, part of the larger effort to provide Nazi officials with a soft landing inside the U.S. While I wouldn't go so far as to call him an opportunist, Kennan could trim his sails with the best of the other office seekers in Washington, and it seems that these facts should also be included in any biography. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.173.30.18 (talk) 06:17, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
 * the current view on the left is that Kennan did NOT call for rollback. see Rjensen (talk) 08:16, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
 * This "current view on the left" is not widely shared, nor is it supported by a wider review of the literature, nor even a review of Kennan's own writings (official and otherwise) with all of their inconsistencies. "In later years Kennan would represent his conception of containment as a political strategy of limited geographical application...and contrast it as a stance of prudent defence with the adventurist notions of 'rollback' advocated by Dulles, and 'flexible response' by Kennedy. Legend has since canonized the image of a sober adviser whose counsels of moderation and wisdom were distorted into a reckless anti-communist activism that would bring disasters against which he spoke out.... The reality was otherwise." In other words, the policy of containment that Kennan advanced in the State Department was in fact every bit as interventionist and aggressively militarist as what became policy after his departure from government. This article demands a more thorough engagement with the historical literature that is critical of Kennan, rather than the mainstream CFR-type hagiography of the man, a genre that owes its existence to tortuous efforts to legitimize the Cold War.C5magee (talk) 21:17, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

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Global vs strongpoint containment: explain!
Terms dumped on the user at key spots in the article ("Legacy") w/o explanation. What does "strongpoint" mean as a POLITICAL term? It's not a vernacular word, it's not helpful to use it in a general-interest place like Wiki. Is the (now wikilinked) MILITARY meaning the intended one?

This is screaming for elaboration:
 * 1) what is global containment,
 * 2) what strongpoint containment,
 * 3) how do they contrast as political doctrines? Arminden (talk) 12:33, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Global containment is the policy of combating expansion everywhere. Strongpoint containment restricts opposition to more limited regions. Some of it is covered in the Differences with Acheson section. DrKay (talk) 11:03, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

WP:URFA/2020
Huge parts are unsourced. Especially some sentences that I assume may be subject to controversy such as "he argued that the United States should become an authoritarian, if not fascist, state and that women, immigrants and African-Americans should be stripped of the right to vote, as he felt only American-born white males had the necessary intelligence to vote"

"Published works" should probably be at the end. And I don't understand why "Kennan had a low opinion of President Roosevelt" is in this section. A455bcd9 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2022 (UTC)


 * This article already glosses over how Kennan was intensely racist and sexist, and his hatred of democracy. &mdash; Red XIV (talk) 17:41, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't know whether your comment was an answer to mine but the issue I pointed out is the lack of references. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 19:21, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think it glosses over it as much as it is unintentionally buried under heaps of "in the weeds" reflexive discourse and minutiae. In other words, it's in there but the article needs some serious editing.  Also, and I think it really needs to be said, a lot of high-level politicians like him were racist, sexist, and anti-democratic, and to be honest, this hasn't really changed all that much in US politics today.  Viriditas (talk) 23:27, 6 May 2024 (UTC)