Talk:George Floyd protests in Portland, Oregon/Archive 1

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 * Portland, Oregon during George Floyd protests, 2020 - 11.jpg

Semi-protected edit request on 7 October 2020
Please add a "See Also" section with a link to the article about Portland's BLM Art: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Lives_Matter_art_in_Portland,_Oregon Thank you!

Art to Tech (talk) 19:11, 7 October 2020 (UTC) Art to Tech (Sue Gemmell) < I am a newbie, trying to help :) Art to Tech (talk) 19:11, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅ (though I think ideally this would be put in prose rather than as a "see also"). – Arms & Hearts (talk) 19:19, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks! --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 20:56, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 30 August 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is clear consensus against moving the page to the proposed title. El_C 04:58, 12 September 2020 (UTC) El_C 04:58, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

George Floyd protests in Portland, Oregon → 2020 Portland Riots – I believe the name should be changed as the protests are not protests anymore due to the nature of the damages of buildings and personal property. The riots has been ongoing for 92 days and counting with buildings being stormed, lit on fire and many injuries. Portland police has declared riots most of the last 3 months. Efuture2 (talk) 03:15, 30 August 2020 (UTC) Efuture2 (talk) 03:15, 30 August 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Jerm (talk) 13:21, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Factual correction to nomination: The police had declared a riot on 23 out of 93 nights as of August 27. That is not a majority. -Pete Forsyth (talk) 14:59, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Confirming- per Chad Wolf letter, as of Aug 31, 23 riots. tedder (talk) 17:22, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Tedder: you and Peteforsyth seem to be referencing different counts, as you're talking about different time spans (Pete specified 5/29-8/27, whereas Wolf's letter is for 7/31-8/31), and you're including different events (Pete was only counting declared riots, whereas Wolf's count includes both "riots and unlawful assemblies"). This OPB article, Portland protests frequently labeled ‘riots,’ but some say police use laws arbitrarily, cited this police data, and both links have information that's relevant to this discussion. The article confirms that "Between May 29 and Aug. 27, the Portland Police Bureau declared 23 riots and 22 unlawful assemblies." It also notes that the Deputy Chief of Police defined "A riot is when six or more persons engage in tumultuous and violent conduct,” so a "riot" can be declared when only a small percentage of protesters become violent (given that tens of thousands of protesters have participated over time). Another thing that the police data highlight is that on some nights, protests occurred in more than one location, and on a few nights there were no protests, so in assessing the percentage of protests that were declared riots, it probably makes more sense to look at the total number of protests (with multiple counts for those nights where protests occurred in more than one location), not the total number of days in the time span. -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 21:54, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Let's not make it too complicated. The point is, none of these methods yields a number that would justify the use of the word "most." Not even close. -Pete Forsyth (talk) 17:58, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * It would be a Neutrality Violation to not include the existence of the "23 riots and 22 unlawful assemblies" that was acknowledged/confirmed to have happened. Regardless of the justification for the use of the word "most", it cannot be refuted that "police had declared a riot on 23 out of 93 nights as of August 27." As such, the title of "George Floyd protests and riots in Portland, Oregon" would be more appropriate because it would neutrally acknowledge that protests, as well as riots, occurred in Portland as a result of the death of George Floyd. --46.36.201.67 (talk) 21:15, 6 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Move to . These have gone far beyond "protests" at this point.  O.N.R.  (talk) 04:15, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose. Recent reliable sources frequently describe them as "protests" and referred to them as relating to George Floyd. Examples:    Riots may occur in the context of protests, but not the other way around; numerous protests on the subject occur daily around Portland, only occasionally are they declared "riots." Even when they are declared "riots," that declaration by police is often contested in reliable sources, and is used to justify local police efforts to use impact munitions, tear gas, etc. In June the legislature prohibited use of such weapons in the absence of a riot declaration. -Pete Forsyth (talk) 05:40, 30 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Re: Riot states, "A riot is a form of civil disorder commonly characterized by a group lashing out in a violent public disturbance against authority, property or people." Neutrality Violation for POV of only "protests" and not neutrally including "riot". George Floyd protests and riots in Portland, Oregon would be a neutral title. --46.36.201.67 (talk) 19:45, 6 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose. It isn't about "general protests', they have a reason. My suggestion is Response to 2020 police violence in Portland, Oregon. tedder (talk) 06:08, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose Searching "guardian portland" i see: "Fatal shooting in Portland as Trump supporters clash with Black Lives Matter protesters ", "One dead as protesters from rival sides clash in Portland", "Portland police order protesters to disperse ". As you can see, there are zero mentions of riot.--Hiveir (talk) 07:10, 30 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Re: Riot states, "A riot is a form of civil disorder commonly characterized by a group lashing out in a violent public disturbance against authority, property or people." --46.36.201.67 (talk) 19:45, 6 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose --Pokelova (talk) 07:25, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment: Should be renamed 2020 Portland unrest given the sheer amount of destruction and violence in comparison to other protests. But I also think there should be an article specifically for the U.S. civil unrest rather than lumping literally every public political gathering under the umbrella of "George Floyd protest". Bigeyedbeansfromvenus (talk) 07:44, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Support - The Portland Police have declared riots on the majority of nights (about 95 now) in Downtown Portland since late May, but we know this has a snowball's chance in hell of being supported by the WP:RS preachers (broken rule - reliable sources are not reliable), so I'd be willing to meet halfway as others have suggested and go with 2020 Portland unrest given that Portland has been an exceptionally unique case among US cities this year with these events. Also to the user above, such a page does now exist (although still in its infancy) here. Temeku (talk) 13:07, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Re: "declared riots on the majority of nights" -- this is false. -Pete Forsyth (talk) 14:59, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose. Although a couple of editors have claimed that the police declared "riots" on a majority of days, they haven't presented any RS confirming that claim, and this August 20 article says "Over the course of more than 80 days, police say they have declared a Portland event a riot 13 times, according to a newly-released timeline," which is far from a majority; and of course even on the nights when a riot was declared, only a subset of the protesters were involved in rioting. A term like "civil unrest" or even "responses to ..." would better capture the variety of responses (e.g., protests, counter-protests, rioting, looting, drive-through violence, local and federal law enforcement actions). I agree with Tedder that it's better for the title to touch on at least one of the reasons for the protests (e.g., police brutality, systemic racism in policing, funding that results in police responses when social workers might be more effective, increased militarization of policing, concerns about qualified immunity, concerns about the deployment of federal forces). Related, there's discussion about renaming the George Floyd protests page 2020 Black Lives Matter protests or something else capturing that the protests are really about broader concerns, even though the killing of George Floyd sparked the protests. I don't have any great suggestions for a title. -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 14:55, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment - It would seem I have rattled some feathers. Two different users with different sources provide different numbers of declared riots which ignored most of July and August, I know because I was there consistently (but I'd understand that not being considered reliable - fine). But, I rest my case. "Unrest" bridges the gap by not ignoring either substantial side of the argument. Temeku (talk) 18:25, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * My feathers aren't ruffled, nor was my comment addressed only to you, Temeku (Efuture2 was the first to assert "Portland police has declared riots most of the last 3 months"). I can always be convinced to change my mind with valid evidence. So far, no one who has claimed that most days were declared riots has presented any actual evidence to support the claim. Do you have evidence? -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 19:26, 30 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose POV title. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:04, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Re: Current title is POV and is a neutrality violation because it incorrectly states all actions as only "protests" even though there have been plenty of cited instances of rioting. Wiki article Riot states, "A riot is a form of civil disorder commonly characterized by a group lashing out in a violent public disturbance against authority, property or people." --46.36.201.67 (talk) 19:38, 6 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Support - we should call a spade a spade. Trying to reconnect (talk) 21:06, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose Despite the blatant neutrality violation, to blanketly call all protests in Portland violent or a riot is simply incorrect. Although some have been unsettled, enough have been relatively peaceful to make calling them a riot non-factual. Anyways, I'm pretty sure the police force that's being protested against isn't exactly an independent source (and even then, others have pointed out that Portland police have not declared most days to be riots). A case could be made to further emphasise on the polarity of the protests in the lead but renaming the article would definitely be overstepping. ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 23:06, 30 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Re: The current title is a blatant neutrality violation because it blanketly calls all actions as only protests. A true neutral point of view would be to label as both. Like 2020 Portland protests and riots --46.36.201.67 (talk) 19:19, 6 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Strong oppose While I would have no objection to renaming this article to 2020 Portland protests -- it can be argued that these protests are losing their connection to the murder of George Floyd -- to call them "riots" not only violates WP:NPOV, but limits the scope to only a part of what is going on. People are demonstrating. People are confronting local police. People are confronting Federal HSD employees. Sometimes these are motivated by how LEOs have mistreated Black people, sometimes (I suspect) these are motivated by loathing for Donald Trump, sometimes (I also suspect) these are the acts of apolitical criminals. It's a complex situation that none of us fully understand. (And I hope this does not become a subsection of Second American Civil War (2020-).) -- llywrch (talk) 06:48, 31 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Re: To call them "protests" is a neutrality violation because it limits the scope to only a part of whats is going on. A true neutral point of view would be to label as both. George Floyd protests and riots in Portland, Oregon --46.36.201.67 (talk) 19:38, 6 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Strong oppose The so-called riots are only a small part of the ongoing events here in Portland. I don't see how the "riots" are worthy of a stand-alone article in any case; the focus should be on the nightly protests over three months (so far). I would favor renaming the article to 2020 Portland protests or the like but see no objection to the present title. sbh (talk) 16:36, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Of course not. "Riots" is not as fair characterization of the protests as a whole. Seems clear this page won't be moved to the proposed title, so I suggest closing this discussion ASAP and letting someone re-nom with a more neutral title if desired. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 17:09, 31 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Re: The current title is not a fair characterization of the protests as a whole either, it is a neutrality violation because it mischaracterized all actions as only protests. A true neutral point of view would be to label as both. George Floyd protests and riots in Portland, Oregon --46.36.201.67 (talk) 19:38, 6 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment: To anyone who feels the article title should be changed to shift attention from George Floyd to something else: First, I don't think that's justified; media tends to refer to them (at the beginning and more recently) as relating to George Floyd, and our guidelines tell us to follow the guidance of independent reliable sources. However, this is certainly something that could change, and there are sources out there I haven't seen. While I think changing the article's title would be premature, I'd encourage those who see other factors motivating the protesters to note those in the Background section of the article. -Pete Forsyth (talk) 18:32, 31 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Move to 2020 Portland protests and riots. Self explanatory, omitting the fact that there have been countless violent riots in Portland from the title isn't neutral, nor is changing the title to suggest all of the protests are riots.  CatcherStorm    talk   14:46, 1 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Move to 2020 Portland protests and riots. Wikipedia editor, Pete Forsyth, is actively trying to interfere with this process. He knowingly admits that since he has voiced his opinion in the matter, that he is no longer in the decision making process for this request. However, since he knows how this process works he has openly solicited requests in his favor via twitter to his followers in order to skew the results of this process. --46.36.201.67 (talk) 19:43, 1 September 2020 (UTC)https://twitter.com/PeteForsyth/status/1300811771712684032


 * Oppose. In every city, the vast majority of protests are peaceful. The riots naturally get more attention. Besides, we should stay consistent with the other pages about the George Floyd protests. Songwaters (talk) 22:22, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Re: Agreed, We should stay consistent with the other pages about George Floyd protests. George Floyd protests in Minneapolis–Saint Paul, this article correctly lists the events as a "The riots and uprising" (2.2) for roughly three (3) days. --46.36.201.67 (talk) 19:38, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Just because the protests are also known collectively as riots doesn't make it accurate and appropriate as a page title. Songwaters (talk) 21:48, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Protests are not collectively known as riots. They are, however, a form of violent direct action protests. Only listing protests would qualify as a neutrality violation since rioting(violent direct action) also occurred. It would imply all forms of protesting that has already happened, and that is still ongoing, was all non-violent. This would imply bias, which would be considered a non-neutral point of view. --46.36.201.68 (talk) 01:13, 7 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Strong oppose. There is no NPOV stance where these nightly demonstrations/protests/unrest can be called a riot, unless you're lumping police violence in there. Graffiti, dumpster fires, and police saying "riot" do not maketh a riot. FiduciaryAkita (talk) 06:00, 2 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Re: "Graffiti, dumpster fires, and police saying "riot" do not maketh a riot." -- this is false Source: Riot states, "A riot is a form of civil disorder commonly characterized by a group lashing out in a violent public disturbance against authority, property or people." --46.36.201.67 (talk) 19:10, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * If we're citing wikipedia back at each other: Violence is the "the use of physical force so as to injure, abuse, damage, or destroy". So does not meet your own criteria! FiduciaryAkita (talk) 11:37, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest you look at Destructive Protests --46.36.201.66 (talk) 16:47, 8 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Strong Move to 2020 Portland protests and riots. Portland has suffered $23 million in damages. Unless someone can point out a protest in history that has cost a city this much damage, then it should be obvious that the protests have escalated into riots. --46.36.201.66 (talk) 19:16, 4 September 2020 (UTC) https://katu.com/news/local/portland-police-plan-to-address-nightly-protests#:~:text=Protests%20cost%20%2423%20million%20in%20damage%2C%20lost%20business%2C%20Portland%20police%20say,-by%20KATU%20Staff&text=Night%20after%20night%2C%20groups%20of,regularly%20for%20about%20six%20weeks.


 * Comment: Portland has suffered $23 million in damages. Unless someone can point out a protest in history that has cost a city this much damage, then it should be obvious that the protests have escalated into riots. Source: KATU--46.36.201.68 (talk) 18:19, 6 September 2020 (UTC)


 * "A widely touted $23 million hit to downtown Portland businesses mostly attributed to nightly demonstrations was almost entirely tied to lost sale figures from Pioneer Place mall, survey data and independent analysis shows. ..." And the George Floyd protests in Minneapolis–Saint Paul are reported to have caused considerably more damage; you can read the references there. I see that there was a bit of discussion in July on the talk page for that article re: renaming, but it wasn't moved. One of the discussants raised WP:COMMONNAME as relevant to the discussion, and that seems relevant here too. -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 19:33, 4 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment: George Floyd protests in Minneapolis–Saint Paul I would like to point out that this article correctly lists the events as a "The riots and uprising" (2.2) for roughly three (3) days. While the discussion here in question has gone on for 90+ days with no recognition of rioting. --46.36.201.68 (talk) 20:20, 4 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment: I would also like to point out that the article in question (George Floyd protests in Portland, Oregon) has "riot" listed 50+ times within the article itself. Yet, we still discuss whether or not to change the heading. --46.36.201.67 (talk) 20:41, 4 September 2020 (UTC)


 * The words "riot[s]"/"rioters" appear about two dozen times in the Portland article (not including the references), including the info box, so I'm not sure what you (46.36.201.68) mean by "no recognition of rioting." The word doesn't appear in a section heading because the sections are organized and named in a totally different way than the Minneapolis article, but it's certainly identified in the article. -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 20:53, 4 September 2020 (UTC)


 * For clarity, "no recognition of rioting" was in regards to the official naming of the article in question and/or the organization of the sections within. More or less, both articles share the "Georgle Floyd" significance of the protests, but only the Minneapolis article specifies "riots" in the reading and headings. Since they share the similar starting point of the death of George Floyd (roughly May 25-26, 2020), deaths involved in both, and general destruction of property/looting to innocent businesses(unrelated to the police) then it would be strange that both articles would have different naming conventions, especially with Portland still being an ongoing situation. Wiki article Riot states, "A riot is a form of civil disorder commonly characterized by a group lashing out in a violent public disturbance against authority, property or people." Sources to confirm designation to include "riot" in the heading that match the Riot definition: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5--46.36.201.67 (talk) 21:18, 4 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Strong Move to 2020 Portland protests and riots 100th day celebration of protests/riots included molotov cocktails and another 50 arrests. Neutrality Violation since the current title falsely implies all actions as only protests. Sources: 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 --46.36.201.68 (talk) 17:46, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Striking second vote. You don't get to vote twice just because you have 46.36.201.67 and 46.36.201.68. They're both you, are they not? – Muboshgu (talk) 17:56, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Also striking a vote from 46.36.201.66. These are the same person. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:00, 6 September 2020 (UTC)


 * My intentions are not to vote more than once. Only to update with current facts. Please feel free to only count any signature of 46.36.201.xx as only one (1) vote. --46.36.201.67 (talk) 19:55, 6 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment:100th day celebration of protests/riots included molotov cocktails and another 50 arrests. Neutrality Violation since the current title falsely implies all actions as only protests. Sources: 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.36.201.68 (talk) 18:07, 6 September 2020 (UTC)  --46.36.201.68 (talk) 18:14, 6 September 2020 (UTC)


 * But you're okay with titling the page "riots", which falsely implies all actions as riots, which is a NPOV violation for sure. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:09, 6 September 2020 (UTC)


 * No, I'm okay with titling the page 2020 Portland protests and riots, which correctly implies actions as both protests and riots. The current title is in violation of NPOV because it implies all actions only as "protests", which is the exact same scenario as you stated that labeling them only as "riots" implies these actions as only "riots". This is why the only neutral position is to label them as both. --46.36.201.68 (talk) 18:14, 6 September 2020 (UTC)


 * For clarification to be more consistent with the current title, George Floyd protests and riots in Portland, Oregon in order to NOT remove the significance of George Floyd from the title. --46.36.201.67 (talk) 19:19, 6 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Suggestion:   should be applied to main page to determine if "George Floyd protests in Portland, Oregon" article name meets NPOV naming standard, or if the title of "George Floyd protests and riots in Portland, Oregon" would be more appropriate because it neutrally acknowledges that protests, as well as riots, occurred in Portland as a result of the death of George Floyd.  --46.36.201.67 (talk) 04:24, 7 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment: In my view "protest" is a neutral word. "Riots" can occur among "protests" (you could even describe some events described as "riot" as a form of "protest") but not the other way around. "Peaceful protest" and "riot" are judgments that it's best to leave out of the title of the article. Also, as of today (day #102), every single day there have been protests where no police have been present, no riot or unlawful assembly declared, etc. Some are more worthy of mention in this article than others, but the fact that they continue to occur, and draw news coverage, is IMO a strong reason to avoid including the word "riot" in the title of the article. -Pete Forsyth (talk) 21:04, 7 September 2020 (UTC)


 * , I respectfully disagree. By labeling all demonstrations as only "Protest" this obfuscates all actions as to what the reader imagines a protest to be without accurately depicting to them what type of actions the protesters participated in (civil disobedience, non-destructive, destructive(riot), direct action, etc, etc..) . The addition of "riot/s" to the title would in no way take away from the meaning/impact of the peaceful demonstrations unless the intentions of the title was to mislead the reader into assuming all demonstrations were non-violent, which would be a violation of NPOV. The only alternative for the use of "riot/s" would be to precede "protest" in the current title with the type of actions that have taken place throughout the duration of the protest. An example would be George Floyd non-destructive and destructive protests in Portland, Oregon. Also, I would argue your statement, "as of today (day #102), every single day there have been protests where no police have been present, no riot or unlawful assembly declared, etc.," would be implying that all days leading up to, and to include, day 102 were nonviolent, which I would say to be untrue. This is because there are an assortment of different types of "protest," and by lumping all actions under one terminology only increases the chances of being perceived as non-violent. This would imply bias, and you would be arguing based off a non-neutral position. Sources: 2, 3, 4 --46.36.201.68 (talk) 00:08, 8 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Obvious oppose unnecessarily charged language that is not being commonly used by the actual sources that we are using. Nikki Lee 1999 (talk) 04:55, 12 September 2020 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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