Talk:George Julian Zolnay

Parents
Two issues: 1. The names of his parents: I'm quite sure, his father was Ignác, not Ignatius, his mother Karolina and him was baptized György Gyula, so I think these should be used, instead of the English version. Also, the name of his mother "Vagan (Peed)" is definitely not Hungarian-sounding - actually, it is very English-American sounding, so I suppose somebody should clarify that.

2. Early years - his father more likely moved to Wallachia in 1849, at the end of the Revolution, not in 1848. When did he return to Hungary? Also, how come that the artist was born in Hungary but went to school in Romania? When did he attend the ROYAL ROMANIAN Conservatory? Romania only became a kingdom in 1881, Did he serve in the (Austro)-Hungarian armed forces or in the Romanian ones? Also, I don't get his scholarly course: went to Paris, graduated in Budapest but also in Vienna ... quite fuzzy! Finally, why was he awarded the Knight's Cross of the Crown of Romania? Did he work in Romania? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.120.232.5 (talk) 12:59, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

So..
WHY was he called the sculptor of the Confederacy? I don't understand. 140.247.14.193 (talk) 15:56, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Citizenship and ethnicity
In Wikipedia, the categorization is done by citizenship, not by ancestry, so if Zolnay was never a Hungarian citizen, we don't include him in "Hungarian sculptors" category, just like we wouldn't include Ralph Nader to Lebanese politicians. However, there are some categories by citizenship and ancestry and that's why Hungarian-Americans and Hungarian-Romanians are okay.

Also, I left in the opening paragraph only his citizenships (Romanian and American), according to the Manual of Style - Manual of Style (biographies):


 * Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.

bogdan (talk) 16:21, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Point by point analysis of present text, as reverted by some
Okay, I'm not going to start an edit war, but please, do not spread untrue information (see, how diplomatic I can be? :P) Let's start with the basics: 1. The guy was born in Hungary in 1862. Lived there for 4 years. Went to Romania in 1866, then returned to Hungary in 1878. Went to US in 1892 and died there in 1949. We have proof that he was Hungarian and US citizen. We have absolutely no direct proof that he was Romanian citizen - his military service SEEMS to point to this direction, however it is only conjectural evidence. Yet, somebody insists he was Romanian. Proof of that?
 * Proof of what? If you would read the refs with good faith, it would become clear that he was a Romanian citizen, and that it would be preposterous to assume otherwise. For example, neverminding his millitary service in the Romanian army, or his involvement with the Romanian community in the U.S., how else could you explain the fact that he was constantly described as Romanian (from sources: "Romanian", "Romanian born", "born in Romania out of Hungarian parents", etc.) Surely, this wouldn't of prohibited him from also owning a Austrian/Austro-Hungarian citizenship (not Hungarian, as there wasn't a state called Hungary until 1920). I don't know for how long and where exactly he lived. It seems, from your unsourced statements, that he travelled quite a lot between Bucharest, his home town (as in the city he grew, not necesarily where he was born), and Pécs, Zolnay family's hometown. I'm also puzzled by this time period of his life. Sterp (talk) 12:16, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Sources? Sources? Sources? Here is one for you: just look at the snippet from page 65 stating "a Hungarian by birth" ... ooops, missed that one, didn't you?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.120.232.5 (talk • contribs) 13:37, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

2. His father - born in Hungary, lived in Hungary most of his life, fought in the '48 Revolution, was owner of the Zsolnay Manufacture in Pécs, spent a few years in Romania, and you call him Ignatius. Why exactly? Any reason?
 * That is what the initiator of the article calls him. Btw, could I, following your logic, ask: "why not Ingatius"?. So, why Ignác and not Ingatius or Ignat? Sterp (talk) 12:16, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, so if I created a page on, say, St. Dimitrie, the patron of Bucharest and decided to call him Demeter that would be okay with you since I started that page? Or perhaps you mean that his father after all wasn't Hungarian but Romanian? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.120.232.5 (talk • contribs) 13:37, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

3. His mother - the only source I could find names her as Caroline Neunner - what is YOUR source that she was called Vagan Peed????
 * Bedford, the wikipedia who started this article, could answer this question. Sterp (talk) 12:16, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm dying to see that answer! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.120.232.5 (talk • contribs) 13:37, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Per Cyclopedia, p.372 she was Caroline Vagan (Peed) Zolnay.-- Gen. Bedford his Forest 17:10, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Btw, this Cyclopaedia is among the places where Zolnay birthplace is given as being Pecs, and you can find this statement repeated on Google Books, in various editios of this "Cyclopedia", as well as in the "Encyclopedia Americana" (which I suspect is the same as the Cyclopedia). It's a curious situation, since this "Cyclopedia" contradicts itself (i.e. the episode with his father leaving for Bucharest as early as 1848, 15 years before Zolnay's birth). A later book, Who's who in New York (city and State), published two years before Zolany's death, claims he was born in Bucharest, repeating the same view expressed by some sources as early as 1901 (e.g. the New York Times article).

4. His supposed "lecture" at the Smithsonian - any readily available source besides the picture of a book edited by an organisation that had ALL the reasons to make everybody and their brother Romanians? Please, at least have the decency to not think we're that thick!
 * You're obviously not thick, but you could try not to be a boor. The tone of your remark is insulting. And mind you, that info was actually added by me due to your incessant attemts to removed any connection between Zoltay and Romania. It's sourced material, and it should stay, unless argued otherwise. Sterp (talk) 12:16, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, there was a bit of misunderstanding here. When I wrote the above, source No. 20 was quoted as saying about his Smithsonian lectures, instead of source No. 19. So I take that back. Nevertheless, I would very much like to see any link to the Board of Regents Report - couldn't find any. Perhaps can you provide one? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.120.232.5 (talk • contribs) 13:37, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * There's no rule obliging me to link a reference. However, here you are: . If you're not satisfied by the conciseness of the report (that is why is called a report), here's a paragraph from the "Journal of the Washington Academy of Sciences" of the same year: George Julian Zolnay addressed the Society on Roumania and her -people, illustrating his subject by native music and by lantern slides. Mr. Zolnay stated that, with the exception of the Roumanian Jews, there are few natives of Roumania in the United States at the present time, and of these a large majority are from Transylvania and the Bukovina. This accounts for the dearth of accurate knowledge concerning this picturesque country, wedged in between the Carpathian mountains and the Black Sea. The history of Roumania began... If you also need a "link" for this, I suggest you google it. But I kinda feel pitty for you, so here is another link, where Zolnay is announced in another(!) conference schedule as hailing from Romania. The so-called Ethnic Almanach list Zolnay under the Romania entry. And here is a modern work (1998) claiming the same. What else do you want? What exactly if not chauvinism is the reason for which you simply can't stand the fact that Zolnay had connection with Romania? This is tiresome and upsetting. Sterp (talk) 19:36, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Summation: either come up with some text that respects the Guidelines or don't be offended if somebody else tries. I will expect a few days, before doing any changes, searching for NEUTRAL sources. I suggest the reverters do the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.120.232.5 (talk) 10:32, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * And btw sources: care to list any READILY AVAILABLE, WELL DOCUMENTED and NPOV sources? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.120.232.5 (talk • contribs) 13:37, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Leave me alone! Good bye! Sterp (talk) 19:36, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Third opinion requested
I requested a third opinion. I know what I wrote about Zolnay was reliable, but I see an unstable article with a newbie user on one side, and an IP on another going back and forth or whether Zolnay was Hungarian or Romanian, with constant changing on cited refs. As Eastern Europe and its sensibilities is out of my scholarly area, I'm asking an outsider for their opinion.-- Gen. Bedford his Forest 07:06, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I very much agree. Please lock the page until this dispute is settled. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Camel72 (talk • contribs) 00:32, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Third opinion
If I understand this correctly, the following facts are known: Zolnay's parents were from Hungary; Zolnay emigrated to America at the age of 31; Zolnay lived in Romania; Zolnay also lived in Vienna (then the capital of the Austro-Hungarian empire). The following pieces of information are uncertain: He may have been born in Romania or Hungary; He may have lived in Hungary for a while. It is not certain if he ever took Romanian citizenship. But he seems to have been seen as Romanian once he moved to the US.

It seems to me that the basic fact is that he was an American sculptor who grew up in Romania but had strong Hungarian roots. So, perhaps the thing to do is to categorically state the facts while listing the things that are uncertain. For example, "Zolnay was an American sculptor known as the sculptor of the confederacy. Zolnay whose parents were Hungarian [cite], was probably born in Romania [cite], though there is some evidence that he may have been born in the Hungarian city of Pecs[cite]. He studied sculpture in Bucharest, Paris, and Vienna, before moving to New York in 1894.[cite]"

—Preceding unsigned comment added by RegentsPark (talk • contribs) 03:28, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Article protected
Due to the recent edit warring involving 4 users, I have protected the article for 1 week. Should the issues be resolved before the week has passed, please request unprotection either at my talk page or at requests for unprotection. CIreland (talk) 04:38, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't it have been protected only to prevent new users and IPs, not experienced editors? Protecting from all seems a bit much.-- Gen. Bedford his Forest 05:20, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately some of those reverting are autoconfirmed. CIreland (talk) 05:26, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Additional info on George Julian Zolnay
Per the following: Art and archaeology January – December 1920 By Archaeological Institute of America, Archaeological Society of Washington, College Art Association of America

From page 154

The Parthenon at Nashville Tenn.

“The following notes were obtained through the courtesy of Mr. George Julian Zolnay, the sculpter who has been entrusted by the city of Nashville with the reconstruction of the sculptures of this great Temple.”

Apparently the original Sculptures on the gable ends of the Parthenon were done by Zolnay also. He supposedly used a type of epoxy/concrete to construct them and (according to the article) "These reconstructed models will be reproduced in Petrinite which, according to all calculations will last indefinitely." According to this he also held the patent on this "Zolnay’s synthetic stone, Petrinite" also. However, Patent # 1376523 (Plastic composition and method of producing the same) and # 1379680 (Process of making a cementitious composition) were/are held by held by George M. Formby.

As a note this "Petrinite" "to last indefinitely" only lasted about 45-50 years in the environment of Nashville, Tennessee, USA before it began to fall off of the structural steel supporting the sculptures. The exterior of the Parthenon (Nashville) was redone ending in 2001 and much of the sculpture work had to be redone.

Public Domain Text can be found at:

WikiUser7357 (talk) 19:50, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

WikiUser7357 (talk) 20:00, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

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