Talk:George Juskalian

Highest, highly, and rarest
Before another revert is done to the article... let's talk it out first. I am going to make the assumption that this is the central source we are all referring to. The source itself makes two major distinctions: As such it technically does not support the claim that, "He is considered one of the most highly decorated U.S. soldiers". Merely that his awards are amongst some of the highest in the US military, and that he himself is a highly decorated Armenian-American. I am inclined to agree with AzureCitizen's revision. Mkdw talk 00:39, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) "One of the most highly decorated Armenian-Americans to ever serve the United States"
 * 2) "His decorations are among the highest and most rarely bestowed on US military personnel"


 * I am fine with AzureCitizen's revision. I hope I am not accused of of WP:Puffery. Since the source stated "highest" decorations, I subsequently understood that he would also be considered one of the highest decorated U.S. soldiers since they go hand in hand. Proudbolsahye (talk) 01:12, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * It was a simple understanding of the source's meaning. I wouldn't worry about puffery in this case. Mkdw talk 03:19, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't think a local paper is a highly reliable source for the scarcity of military awards. We list the Silver Star (awarded 100-150,000 times), the Legion of Merit (not very rare from my reading of the article), the Bronze Star (254 in the relatively small Kosovo campaign alone), and the Air Medal (not very rare from my reading of the article).

What are the 6 most rarely given awards that the US has to give to its military personnel? How many of those has Juskalian received?

What medals did Juskalian receive that less than 100 people were granted? Less than 1,000? Kevin McE (talk) 05:54, 24 April 2013 (UTC)


 * It is rare in the sense that the decorations are of a span of three decades and due to the participation of three wars and several other operations. A feat like that is rare in itself and is rarely seen. Proudbolsahye (talk) 06:00, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * In that case the text, and the proposed text for the Main Page, is simply wrong. If the combination is rare, that needs to be sourced.  If none of the medals that he has are rare, then we cannot say that he has "decorations among the rarest bestowed on United States service members."  That is simply wrong, and is now removed.  Kevin McE (talk) 18:08, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Despite the source citation, it probably is dicey to say "rarest" (emphasis added). I certainly don't think the Bronze Star is rare having received it myself. After 26 yrs of service (USA/USAR), I'd say the LOM is definitely awarded less frequently than the BSM, but it's commonly given as a retirement award for O-6's and higher. The Silver Star, however, is reasonably rare as our nation's third highest combat decoration. As Kevin McE mentioned, our Wikipedia article states somewhere between 100-150,000 Silver Stars have been given. If you check the source citation for that, it says:

Which means less than half of one percent of service members earn one. So if we said that the Silver Star is "rare" rather than saying "among the rarest", I don't think that's such a stretch. If I had to draw a line for "rarest", I'd probably put it at the next decoration up, the service crosses, which are second only to the Medal of Honor itself. Back to the article at hand, I think we would have been better off swapping out "rarest" with the adjective "highest", e.g., "as well as decorations among the highest bestowed", and returning that phrase to the text. Comments? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 20:17, 24 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Per AzureCitizen. Kevin McE has only provided how many medals have been given in terms of quantity while neglecting to place them under context. 150,000 may sound like a lot of recipients, but when compared to the tens of millions of military servicemen, it would definitely be a rare medal, especially when it is considered the third highest medal in the U.S. Army. Also, the sentence has been removed without proper consensus. I will revert now. If need be, AzureCitizen's proposal of using the term "highest" to describe the medal may also be a better replacement. But as of now, I don't see whats wrong with using both "highest" and "rarest". Proudbolsahye (talk) 21:36, 24 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The Silver Star alone is obviously a rare award and among the highest. See:

Here are some books that say the same as well: Theres just so much more. I say we should definitely keep the status quo. Ե րևանցի talk  22:00, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Washington Post says, "The medal, rare for any soldier, underscores the growing role in combat of U.S..."
 * "In a ceremony held at the First Army headquarters on Arsenal Island, the Rock Island native was presented with his third Silver Star, a rarity in the military."
 * While that number seems quite large, when compared to the more than 30 million American men and women who have served in uniform during that time period, it is obvious that the Silver Star is a rare award, bestowed on fewer than 1 in every 250 veterans of military service.
 * "Military awards rare Silver Star to 2 Fort Carson GIs" There is also a quote in the article that says, "This is a historic moment; the Silver Star is rarely given," said Lt. Gen. Robert Wagner, commander of the Army's Special Operations Command."
 * The Silver Star was rare in Vietnam (pg. 293)
 * the Silver Star is a rare award given to individuals who, from their own individual effort, save lives and equipment from certain loss... (pg. 383)

So the Silver star may be rare. That does not justify the claim, nor is it sourced in the article. Kevin McE (talk) 06:23, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

I believe you're the only one who believes it is not a reliable source here...


 * Republic of Korea Presidential Unit Citation: Only the 7th infantry of the United States Army, which Juskalian was a part of, was awarded the medal. See Recipients section of the WP.


 * Presidential Unit Citations are generally rare as stated during a session of the United States 111th Congress, "The unit was awarded the rare and prestigious citation in recognition of their determination" Which also states:


 * Army Medal Guide p. 561 - "Only on rare occasions will a unit larger than a battalion qualify for award of the decoration."


 * Legion of Merit - The Washington National Guard calls it "The rare and prestigious Legion of Merit was presented..."


 * "a rare Legion of Merit" and "rare Presidential Unit Citation" (p. 33)


 * "the rare and distinctive Legion of Merit medal." (p. 170) Proudbolsahye (talk) 07:19, 25 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not quite sure why we're even dicsussing this. The source is explicit: "His decorations are among the highest and most rarely bestowed on US military personnel." If Kevin McE wants to argue that in this case a newspaper is not a reliable source, WP:RSN is available. But right now this looks like a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT to me where reliable sources are ignored because an editor's personal opinion contradicts the source. Huon (talk) 16:46, 25 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I may also want to add that the hook he is complaining about is of his own revision (see: his revision at prep 2) Proudbolsahye (talk) 17:17, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

There has been no proper consensus reached as to whether the source is unreliable. In fact, the source is reliable since the "highest" and "most rarely" decorations are confirmed by other news sources, government agencies and books. Ե րևանցի talk  20:06, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

The relevant issue in terms of current phrasing is not directly a function of the number of medals issued, nor the percentage of military personnel to have been awarded them. IF the claim made is that these are "among the rarest bestowed on United States service members", then we need to know the list of decorations available, sorted by number issued. If more than one of Juskalian's are in the top 10 or so of that list, the claim could be considered valid, if not, it is not. It the meantime, a throwaway comment in a peacock piece in a local paper is not a reliable source for such a claim. Journalists in such circumstances can claim some leeway and licence: encyclopaedic editors cannot. Kevin McE (talk) 11:11, 27 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I have taken this to WP:RSN. Let's see what others have to say about the reliability of the source. Huon (talk) 12:56, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Awards and decorations (from IP 108 talkpage)
Two questions. 1) Is it normal for the ribbons to be positioned that way? I mean empty in the top left part? 2) Shouldn't the infobox have small ribbon logos as before? Proudbolsahye (talk) 19:23, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi, Proudb. 1) We're going to need help from someone who has done a few of these before.  I'm having trouble centering the second row (three ribbons), so, for the time being it approximates how it looks on his jacket, where the lapel forces the lopsided shape.  I expect it to change when we figure out how to do it. 2) The featured articles I looked at did not have small ribbon logos in the infobox.  My model was John F. Bolt. Other articles I looked at (not FA) were Elliott C. Cutler, Jr., David Hackworth, George W. Dunaway and Hal Moore.  --108.45.72.196 (talk) 20:21, 14 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Other FA's to use as models are: Kenneth Walker, Kenneth R. Shadrick, George Andrew Davis, Jr., Leslie Groves, Thomas J. Hudner, Jr., Douglas MacArthur, Thomas C. Kinkaid, Fred Moosally, Edwin Taylor Pollock and Arthur W. Radford.  --108.45.72.196 (talk) 20:41, 14 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Alright IP. That's fine with me. The number of awards is an odd number so we need to find a FA to get an idea. Proudbolsahye (talk) 21:02, 14 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi, P. I've copied this to the article talk page in case anyone else wants to contribute.  I think I have a solution to the ribbons arrangement problem:  I think I'll just award him one more medal so he has an even number!   --108.45.72.196 (talk) 21:13, 14 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Haha! Make sure it's the Medal of Honor! Proudbolsahye (talk) 21:24, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Detail questions for Proudb:
Hi, Proudb. 1) What year did he receive the Shnorali Medal from the Catholicos?  That number should be added to the lead.  2)  Do we have the citation for his first Silver Star? It also could be put in a boxquote under the ribbons. --108.45.72.196 (talk) 17:06, 17 June 2013 (UTC) (I'm using the John F. Bolt FA as my model for the presentation his ribbons and citations, if you want to look there. --108.45.72.196 (talk) 17:15, 17 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Hello, IP. 1) The year he received the Nerses Shnorali Medal is in the recognition section (1988). 2) I'm going to work on finding his first Silver Star citation. Turns out his second Silver Star citation is a lot longer than two sentences. Proudbolsahye (talk) 17:22, 17 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Update As of now I cannot find his first Silver Star citation. It is from WW2 and should be about his achievements in Northern Africa. Also, turns out in 1995, Juskalian met Bill Clinton and former President of Armenia Levon Ter-Petrossian at a Whitehouse reception. Should I add that info? Proudbolsahye (talk) 17:38, 17 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't. Thanks for the info.  --108.45.72.196 (talk) 17:47, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

New question: why do the journal articles GJ wrote only show a single page number? I would expect to see a pp. type range of page numbers. --108.45.72.196 (talk) 18:04, 17 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Legitimate question IP. I am very limited when it comes to the published articles. At this point, all I know is the start page. But I am going to search and find Ararat quarterly and Armenian Review volumes and see the pp. range when I can. It would have to be at a local University or something. Proudbolsahye (talk) 18:17, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Copy edit
Generally, the article is good. The minor edits I've made:
 * Used non-breaking spaces (e.g.  →  ).
 * Take care when using dangling modifiers.
 * Numbers are consistent. Wikipedia gives you the option of writing in either numbers or words (e.g. 27 or twenty-seven).
 * This sentence: "Veterans Administration Advisory Committee for Former Prinosers of War". Is Prinosers meant to be Prisoners?

Honette 03:16, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm currently going through each sentence. It's advisable to use a topic sentence for each paragraph. A topic sentence tells the reader what the following paragraph will be about. I'll try and sort them out without modifying the content. Honette 03:46, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

, first of all I would like to thank you for putting the time and energy into your copy-edits. After all copy-edits are done and after you meticulously checked each sentence, let me know if you need anything or have any questions. Once again, thank you. Proudbolsahye (talk) 04:14, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

v2
I've done another round of CE. Please check my edits in case I incorrectly expressed information; any editor is free to disagree with my edits. My edits are certainly not final. Other editors may spot something I missed or I could detect them later. I understand that obtaining the Featured Article status for this article is desired. The article's tone, content, cohesion, choice of words and sentence structures is a separate task that may need to be examined to meet a certain criterion (I have no idea what it is). Best to ask featured article reviewers for their advice and see what needs to be worked on.

Did Kevork Juskalian go with his family to the United States or did he go by himself? I ask because the sentence starting with Consequently (meaning as a result of his moving to the United States), the word family is used. Family is a group of people but the previous sentence states one person fled to the U.S. Maybe it's meant to read: ''... and subsequently fled to the United States with his family ...''

This sentence appears to be randomly inserted and does not have a relationship with the paragraph. I have no idea what to do with it. Leave it there for now.

Is there a year for this? Other dates provide the year but not this one?

Initial means "occurring at the beginning". Does this imply the 1st Infantry Division had another objective, I thought? Or maybe the sentence is meant to say: When landing in Oran on November 8, 1942, the 1st Infantry Division's primary objective was to confront the German Afrikan Korps commanded by Erwin Rommel and secondary objective was to support Bernard Law Montgomery's advance against the Italian forces.?

Who was avoiding the Soviet? I interpret the sentence as: (a) the POWs were moved and the German troops remained—the POWs were keeping away from the Soviet; and (b) once the POWs were moved, the Soviet stopped their advancement. Maybe the sentence is meant to read: ... the German troops moved themselves and the POWs westward into Germany to avoid ... or ''... the German troops moved and their POWs moved westward into Germany to avoid ...''

Is there a year for this?

Random notes
 * I cannot find the styling rule of bachelor and master (a person who holds a degree from a university) in Wikipedia's style guide so I followed the advice from Oxford and Bachelor of Journalism. For example: master's degree in international transactions or Master of International Transactions, not master's degree in International Transactions. This one is tricky: Bachelor of Science, Journalism or bachelor's degree in science, journalism, not bachelor of science degree in journalism.
 * Multiple-word contractions should not be used: could not, not couldn't, according to MOS:ABBR under "Contractions".
 * Some sentences were shortened.

Honette 13:48, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

, thanks for your review once again. Here's what I fixed and what I believe shouldn't be fixed.


 * 1) Kevork Juskalian felt that there was no secure future for him in the Ottoman Turkey and subsequently fled to the United States, arriving in Ellis Island on November 15, 1887. Consequently, the Juskalian family became one of the first Armenians to come to the United States. FIXED.
 * 2) On January 21, 1945, the German troops moved the POWs westward into Germany to avoid the Soviet's advance from the east. FIXED.
 * 3) When landing in Oran on November 8, 1942, the 1st Infantry Division's initial objective was to confront the German Afrikan Korps commanded by Erwin Rommel and support Bernard Law Montgomery's advance against the Italian forces. FIXED.
 * 4) If the FAC brings up Ernest Dervishian's irrelevance to the article, I will delete it. However, up until that point, I'd like it to stay since it is relevant to his extended family and provides a deeper military background of his family.
 * 5) On April 17, American troops secured Nuremberg and Oran fell to the Allies on November 10...I didn't provide the year for these dates because I thought it was over repetitive due to the fact that the year was mentioned in previous sentences.

Proudbolsahye (talk) 17:22, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * No worries. While I was reading the dates (without their years), I paused for a moment and figured out their years in the previous sentences, as you already mentioned. So it works! :)  Honette  01:20, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

File:George Juskalian 1.jpg to appear as POTD soon
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:George Juskalian 1.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on October 29, 2013. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2013-10-29. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:45, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Close paraphrasing issue

 * I was planning on turning to this page after Confiscated Armenian Properties in Turkey to try and get the copyright violations and close paraphrasing removed; however, seeing that the article is going to be highlighted on the main page soon, and since significant close paraphrasing issues remain very dug in (see featured discussion), what is the best way to deal with this? I can add a little help, but nothing close to what I did on Confiscated Armenian property (and there are many more obscure offline sources)--a tag sufficient?  Copyvio the page? Other approaches? . One example of derivative writing:
 * From the Original: "Colonel Juskalian reorganized his forces and sent B Company and A Company, under 1st Lt. Jack L. Conn, in a second attack during the afternoon of the 24th. The two companies reached Lieutenant Patteson's B Company, 31st Regiment, positions and passed through them. By nightfall they had won back one quarter of Old Baldy, but were forced by enemy resistance to dig in and hold....At 0430 hours on 25 March, Colonel Juskalian sent C Company under 1st Lt. Robert C. Gutner, around the right flak to attack up the northeast finger of Old Baldy....C Company was "pretty well shot up" and had to be withdrawn and reorganized. Some members of the company were still pinned down on the right flank of Baldy and could not get out. Colonel Juskalian called for tank support to knock out the Chinese bunkers being used to pin down the 30 to 40 C Company men left on the hill"
 * From the wikipedia page: "When the Chinese offensive came to a halt, Juskalian reorganized the forces under his command and sent both A and B Companies, under First Lieutenant Jack L. Conn, on a second attack. This offensive proved only partially successful as they regained only a quarter of the hill. On March 25, Juskalian ordered C Company, under First Lieutenant Robert C. Gutner, to attack from the northeast. This offensive failed because enemy forces halted their advance. Many members of the C Company were trapped on the right flank of Old Baldy and Juskalian requested tank support to demolish the Chinese bunkers to free 30 to 40 troops of the company." AbstractIllusions (talk) 04:41, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

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