Talk:George Kambosos Jr

His ethnicity
George Kambosos Jr is Greek-Australian. He is being referred to as "Australian" on this page, which is factually misleading, and should be changed.

As per his own words, "I’m named for my father’s dad, George Kambosos Sr. Both of my grandparents, on mum and dad’s side, came over from Greece with absolutely nothing." From this, we can confirm he is entirely of Greek decent.

Also as per his own words, "I’m Greek-Australian, descendant of an ancient and mighty heritage. Spartan warriors adorn my back as I go to war. They inspire me with their immortal words: ‘Never retreat, never surrender’." This confirms he identifies as Greek-Australian.

And finally as per wiki - "Greek Australians (Greek: Ελληνοαυστραλοί, Ellinoafstrali) are Australians who have full or partial Greek heritage or people who sought asylum as refugees after the Greek Civil War or emigrated from Greece and reside in Australia."

Which defines what criteria needs to be met in order to be defined as Greek-Australian. Therefore, we can confirm he is 100% Greek-Australian. In fact he over qualifies, as he is not partial, but of full Greek decent.

Squared.Circle.Boxing has argued that this should not be added, claiming his ethnicity is not notable, and as per MOS:ETHNICITY, ethnicity should not be added if it is not notable.

I have given reasons as to why this it is notable, however Squared.Circle.Boxing has reverted any edits to his ethnicity, without any rebuttals to my reasons for his notability.

Therefore I will note the reasons here. First we must define "notable"

Definition of notable (Entry 1 of 2) 1a: worthy of note : REMARKABLE a notable improvement b: DISTINGUISHED, PROMINENT a notable author

Why is is his ethnicity "Worthy of note" or "Remarkable"?

1. The obvious answer first. Because he is a "Greek-Australian" who has achieved his success in Australia. Becoming arguably the best boxer in Australia whilst only being 1.5% of the population is extremely noteworthy. Whilst the following reasons could be considered subjective, this however is not.

2. He has referred to his Greek, and even more specifically, his Spartan ancestry in multiple interviews and on social media several times.

3. His body is covered in several tattoos referring to Greece, including the famous words by Leonidas, king of Sparta: "Never retreat, never surrender"

4. His trunks in his late fight against Lopez had the Greek words "Molon Labe", which means "Come and get them", referring to the famous words also uttered by Leonidas, king of Sparta.

5. Prior to his ring entrance against Lopez, he would play a sound clip from the movie "300", again referencing his spartan heritage.

6. Finally, and less subjectively: his name. His last name is Kambosos. A Greek surname. His heritage is literally noted every time his name is said.

The question therefore is not his identity - his identity is by definition, Greek-Australian, but why must his identity continue to be incorrect on this page. There is no reason for it to remain incorrect based on a very subjective initial judgement of it's "notability". As such, this needs to be remedied as to avoid further misinformation. OceanTakeaway (talk) 15:49, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
 * As I said in my edit summaries, my rebuttal is MOS:CONTEXTBIO: The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable. For guidance on historic place name versus modern-day names, see WP:MODERNPLACENAME. Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability. Kambosos became notable as an Australian national whose permanent residence was (and still is) Australia at the time he became notable. The only thing that Kambosos is notable for is boxing. His Greek heritage is not relevant to his notability. – 2 . O . Boxing  17:00, 11 December 2021 (UTC)


 * As per MOS:CONTEXTBIO you have just referenced, ethnicity can be placed if relevant to their notability. I have given 6 reasons as to why his ethnicity is relevant and yet you have given zero as to why it is not. You have only explained why his nationality is relevant.


 * So by your definition, an attribute becomes relevant provided that it exists when the subject it applies to becomes notable - Kambosos was an Australian national when he became notable, and currently still is an Australian national.


 * Well then by by your definition, his ethnicity is also relevant, as he was of Greek ethnicity when he became notable, and currently still is of Greek ethnicity today. In fact, you could argue that his ethnicity is perhaps of even more importance than his Australian nationality, as it is the only part of him that is immutable. At any point Kambosos could have chosen to become a national of a different country prior to becoming notable and yet, his ethnicity would have stayed the same. Regardless, Changing his identity, to Greek-Australian does not change his nationality, it says it right in the title "Greek-Australian", in fact it would make it more factual, as it is what he is and identifies as.


 * I'd also like to note that I have now provided 7 reasons. By continuing to retain his identity as is, you are intentionally misinforming readers. OceanTakeaway (talk) 02:14, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
 * No, you haven't provided a single reason as to why his Greek heritage is relevant to his notability. So by your definition...no, not by my definition, by CONTEXTBIO's. You have only explained why his nationality is relevant...no, I've explained, as per CONTEXTBIO, why nationality is generally included and ethnicity is exluded. Well then by by your definition, his ethnicity is also relevant, as he was of Greek ethnicity when he became notable...again, not my definition. But no, per CONTEXTBIO, ethnicity does not have the same qualifiers as nationality so it doesn't matter if he had Greek heritage at the time he became notable. By continuing to retain his identity as is, you are intentionally misinforming readers...firstly, no; by including his nationality and excluding his heritage, the only thing I'm intentionally doing is following CONTEXTBIO. Do not assign motives to my actions, you're clearly not a mind reader. And secondly, as I've previously stated, a total of three editors have reverted your change, so it's not just me who is apparently (somehow?) misinforming readers. Kambosos is notable for being a professional boxer, so that's included. He's an Australian national, so that's included. He wasn't born in Greece, his parents weren't even born in Greece, he hasn't spent any significant portion of his career in Greece and he's never represented Greece in boxing in any official capacity. That's why his heritage isn't included. – 2 . O . Boxing  10:06, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

But you are not following CONTEXTBIO, You are intentionally misquoting CONTEXTBIO again.

"But no, per CONTEXTBIO, ethnicity does not have the same qualifiers as nationality"

It did not say that, it said "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident"

So we can confirm that "Australia" should be somewhere in the title because he is an Australian national.

And then it says: "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability."

We can also confirm that ethnicity can be added only if it is relevant to the subject's notability

So in order to for his ethnicity to be added/not added, we must establish why it is/is not relevant to the subject's notability.

I have mentioned multiple reasons why it it is relevant to the subject's notability, and yet you have conveniently ignored them every time. I suspect it is because you have no answer for them and you are merely biased.

So instead I will do what you refuse to do and specifically reference your comments and why they are incorrect.

"Kambosos is notable for being a professional boxer, so that's included. He's an Australian national, so that's included."

Ok sure, I had never advocated to remove "Boxer" or "Australian" from the title.

"He wasn't born in Greece, his parents weren't even born in Greece, he hasn't spent any significant portion of his career in Greece and he's never represented Greece in boxing in any official capacity. That's why his heritage isn't included."

Ok so your reasons as to why his his ethnicity is not relevant to his notability are:

1. Not born in Greece 2. Parents not born in Greece 3. Hasn't spent significant portion of career in Greece 4. Hasn't officially represented Greece

Ok the first thing to note here that despite the four reasons above, his ethnicity still remains Greek. None of the above are qualifiers for Greek ethnicity, only that he be genetically descended from Greece, which he is. He has established both his grandparents are from there. Neither he nor his parents need to have been born in Greece. He did not need to have ever been there nor represent Greece in order to be of Greek ethnicity. Therefore none of your points actually take away from the validity of his ethnicity, but only attempt to reduce it's relevance towards his notability. However, your points would have more merit if Kambosos was adopted by non-greek parents at birth. However, we know he was raised by his parents who are ethnically Greek, and he has mentioned his Greek ethnicity in interviews multiple times, and as such he maintains both biological and cultural ties to Greece, whilst being of Greek Ethnicity, all of which exist despite not having been born or lived in Greece. However, this is not the only reason why his ethnicity is relevant to his notability and as such I will rehash my point which you have so conveniently ignored.

Firstly. Definitions.

Ethnicity noun eth·​nic·​i·​ty | \ eth-ˈni-sə-tē \ plural ethnicities Definition of ethnicity 1: ethnic quality or affiliation aspects of ethnicity

Relevance noun rel·​e·​vance | \ ˈre-lə-vən(t)s \ Definition of relevance 1a: relation to the matter at hand

Notable adjective no·​ta·​ble | \ ˈnō-tə-bəl, for sense 2 also ˈnä-  \ Definition of notable (Entry 1 of 2) 1a: worthy of note : REMARKABLE a notable improvement

So in my following comments, I will establish why Kambosos' ethnicity, being Greek, is relevant to his notability, being a boxer who has defeated Lopez for the unified championships.

1. His ethnic group "Greek-Australians" are 1.5% of the Australian population. This is relevant because when he became notable for beating Teofimo Lopez, he became arguably Australia's best boxer whilst being of an ethic group which makes up a very small percentage of the the population in Australia.

2. Both during and after his fight with Lopez wherein he became notable, he had referred to his Greek, and even more specifically, his Spartan ancestry in multiple interviews as one of his motivators. Here we see Kambosos directly relate his ethnicity to his motivation for the fight wherein he becomes notable.

3. When he had his fight Lopez wherin he became notable, his body was covered in several tattoos referring to Greece, including the famous words by Leonidas, king of Sparta: "Never retreat, never surrender". This is an example of George relating his ethnicity to the moment he became notable by intentionally declaring his ethnicity to all viewers during the fight with Lopez and as such, takes pride in.

4. When he had his fight Lopez wherin he became notable, his trunks in his last fight against Lopez had the Greek words "Molon Labe", which means "Come and get them", referring to the famous words also uttered by Leonidas, king of Sparta. This is another example of George relating his ethnicity to the moment he became notable by intentionally declaring his ethnicity to all viewers during the fight with Lopez and as such, takes pride in.

5. Prior to his ring entrance against Lopez wherin he became notable, he would play a sound clip from the movie "300", again referencing his spartan heritage. This is yet again another example of George relating his ethnicity to the moment he became notable by intentionally declaring his ethnicity to all viewers during the fight with Lopez and as such, takes pride in.

6. When the George's name was announced both before and after his fight with Lopez wherin he became notable, his last name, Kambosos was announced. A Greek surname. This is another example of his ethnicity being relevant to his notability. When his Greek surname was called after the fight wherin he became notable, his ethnicity was again declared to all viewers during the fight with Lopez.

7. When he had his fight Lopez wherein he became notable, he would carry both the Greek and Australian flags. This is another example of George relating his ethnicity to the moment he became notable by intentionally declaring his ethnicity to all viewers during the fight with Lopez and as such, takes pride in.

8. He Identifies as Greek-Australian. If the subject of the article themself, who is notable, says that they identify as an ethnicity, and indeed they are of that ethnicity, then it would stand to reason that said ethnicity is relevant to the person's notability. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OceanTakeaway (talk • contribs) 07:04, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

I have now established several reasons why his ethnicity is relevant to his notability, however I have no doubt you will refuse to acknowledge them. You plus "two other editors" is not a sufficient reason to continue to misinform the readers. Therefore I see no other choice but to have this article examined by others. OceanTakeaway (talk) 14:03, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

I have filed a Dispute Resolution Request with the Noticeboard. You can see it here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard — Preceding unsigned comment added by OceanTakeaway (talk • contribs) 06:40, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

RFC on Ethnicity and Nationality
Should the lede sentence of George Kambosos Jr. be refer to him as a "Greek-Australian professional boxer" (as opposed to an "Australian professional boxer")? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:01, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Please answer Yes or No with a brief statement in the Survey. The Threaded Discussion section is for back-and-forth discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:01, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Survey

 * No, per MOS:CONTEXTBIO. Kambosos' notability begins and ends with boxing. Showing pride in his heritage has no relevance to his notability as a boxer–in that his grandparents being from Greece has not, in any way, contributed to his notability. He has never represented Greece in an official capacity as a boxer. This is not a case of dual nationality where he has been notable under both nationalities, separately, or where he identifies with one particular nationality. Ethnicity is not treated the same as nationality, so what Kambosos identifies as has no impact on CONTEXTBIO. Australian professional boxer fully complies with–and is recommended by–the relevant guidelines, with none in contradiction. – 2 . O . Boxing  10:18, 17 December 2021 (UTC)


 * No - Summoned by bot. As 2 . O . Boxing  noted, since he has never represented Greece as a boxer and is not notable for being a Greek boxer, do not include.  Meatsgains (talk) 16:53, 17 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Yes I will list my reasons as to why his ethnicity is relevant to his notability - his win over Teofimo Lopez. 1. Greek-Australians are 1.5% of the Australian population, which meant, percentage wise, the odds were against him. 2. He references his Greek and sometimes more specifically his Spartan heritage as his motivation in interviews frequently. 3. His body is covered in tattoos of Greek iconography and phrases 4. His boxing trunks had Greek phrases on them 5. He used 300 as his pre walkout music for his fight against Teofimo Lopez 6. He has a Greek last name, which announced every time he boxes 7. He carries both a Greek and Australian flag every time he enters and exits a ring. 8. He himself identifies as Greek-Australian. OceanTakeaway (talk) 13:42, 18 December 2021 (UTC)


 * No I took a look at his page and personally, I feel that the mention of his Greek background under the 'Early life' section is sufficient. There does not seem to be significant reference to his Greek background in the rest of the page that would warrant its mention in the lead. Coolcactus04 (talk) 19:57, 18 December 2021 (UTC)


 * No While he may be of Greek decent and that he is proud of that does not over shadow the fact that he was born in Australia and that is his nationality.Tepkunset (talk) 17:39, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
 * No – MOS:ETHNICITY makes this pretty clear as a general principle, and I don't see a compelling reason for making an exception. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 16:57, 23 December 2021 (UTC)


 * No – does not need to be in the lead. If he was a Greek citizen, it would be different. Early life covers it. Danny García and Gabriel Rosado often tout their Puerto Rican heritage, but they're rightfully listed as American. Joe Calzaghe was all about his Italian heritage, but it's sufficient to list him as Welsh. No exception needed for Kambosos. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 02:10, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Threaded Discussion
Just to summarise my argument, CONTEXTBIO does allow the placement of ethnicity in the lede sentence, but only if it is relevant to the subject's notability as per "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability". I have listed my multiple reasons why I believe his ethnicity is relevant in my previous above comments, however I would like to hear from other users as to if they believe it is\is not relevant to his notability and why. OceanTakeaway (talk) 03:21, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

How long do RFCs stay open for? I think it's pretty clear what the consensus is, and I highly doubt there will be any more Yes votes. – 2 . O . Boxing  20:40, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Date
Should we keep the June 5 date for both the Kambosos and Haney pages, since the fight is happening in Australia? And when an eventual page is made about the fight, I suppose the June 5 date will be used? Faren29 (talk) 11:01, 1 April 2022 (UTC)


 * yes, per MOS:TIMEZONE. – 2 . O . Boxing  12:00, 1 April 2022 (UTC)