Talk:George Lilanga

The Birthplace of George Lilanga is nonsense
on more than 100 galleries around the world it was claimed that George Lilanga was born in Kikwetu in Masasi. But already an average school atlas will show that Kikwetu is not in Masasi district but in Lindi district. In fact George Lilanga was born in Mozambique but it will take 5-10 year until the art world will accept it. Now it is too earlier to go into the discussion. So far - it is better to write "Kikwetu in Lindi district". --Tuptan (talk) 20:24, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but Wikipedia relies on external sources, and if external sources on the matter say that Lilanga was born in Tanzania, that's what we have to stick to in this context. If the claim that he is born in Mozambique is right, it must be supported elsewhere, and will eventually make it to Wikipedia when it will be reported by reliable sources. The same goes for Kikwetu being in the Masasi or Lindi district - as all sources I know of and could find speak of "Kikwetu, in the Masasi district", that's a sourced statement, while yours, sorry, is not. You could provide an "average school atlas" reference, and I understand there's a Kikwetu Airport near Lindi (there's plenty of sources on that), still it's not this easy, as there is no guarantee that there is a single place called Kikwetu and that there is no Kikwetu in the Masasi district, which is definitely harder to prove. Until something clear and undisputable comes up, we have to stay with the existing sources, that all seem to agree that "George Lilanga was born in Kikwetu, Masasi district, Tanzania". Moongateclimber (talk) 08:51, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Both Lutamba city in south Tanzania and Kikwetu in Masasi district could be false until the authors verify it, isn´t it right? For example, I have spent days to look in google, books, maps and even in jungles in south Tanzania to find Lutamba and Kikwetu while authors of these "SOURCED STATEMENTS" hardly left their home to come to Tanzania. They simply published "UNVERIFIED STATEMENTS". Why should I spend time to verify their statements? Isn´t it their job? They wrote it in books, not me...They shoudl tell us where Lutamba is situated, not me. Why should I verify something what I never stated? Do you mean that academics can write whatever they want and then ordinary people must verify their "finding"? I am little bit confused about what to do now.

I have found that Rutamba (spelled as Lutamba in Wikipedia) did not exist before 1964 because it was simply a refugee camp set up for ca 10.000 Mozambican refugees in 1964. Lilanga couldn´t go to primary or secondary school in Rutamba since he was 30 years old when Rutamba was set up.

Please, advice what to do about these statements. Must Wikipedia simply rely only on sourced statements? Why can´t Wikipedia check the atlas and get the list of refugee camps? Then it could quickly see that Lilanga couldn´t be born in Kikwetu in Masasi district and couldn´t spend his childhood in Rutamba city. Isn´t it our responsibility to stop to spread unverified statements which seems to be false?

--Tuptan (talk) 11:15, 28 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The point is that Wikipedia is supposed to collect information found in other sources and, in principle, it is actually not our job to stop the spreading of false claims that we find in sources. If you think sources about Lilanga are all not reliable (as your first paragraph above suggests), we may discuss this. But please keep in mind that even if all sources about Lilanga are unreliable, if they all agree, we will probably anyway mention their view (albeit in a hypotetical rather than factual form) and we will not mention whatever other view is supported by 0 sources. Again, this is the consequence of this being an encyclopedia, i.e., a place where existing published information is organized. You surely understand that to another Wikipedia user (or another person in general), the claims you make after "looking on maps and even in the jungle" are as unsourced and unverified as any other; plus, they haven't been published and are unknown to scholars. This does not make them any "better" than those "unverified sentences" by people who never been in Tanzania (by your claim).
 * Of course, lists of refugees camps as well as atlases might all be good sources for some statements in the article, and I would agree that if all sources say that Lilanga lived in a certain city at a certain time, and we have unquestionable evidence that the city did not exist at that time, we could and should correct the mistake. Anyway, as this would somewhat be in opposition to WP:PRIMARY, we must have a very good reason to do this. This again means that sources must be available and solid. In the Rutamba example, if you can bring evidence that, for instance: a) Rutamba and Lutamba are the same and they are the place where Lilanga is reported to have lived (and not just another place by the same name) b) Rutamba did not exist before 1964 other than as a refugee camp; c) Lilanga couldn't have attended any school while living in a refugee camp; and couldn't have attended secondary and tertiary schools at the age of 30+...
 * Moongateclimber (talk) 12:50, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

LILANGA REPORTED TO LIVE IN LUTAMBA REFUGEE CAMP There are various books claiming that Lilanga worked as guard and sold sculptures in Lutamba refugee camp. Sarenco´s book will serve as example: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:NxZ04Sm_qBkJ:www.ecampus.com/george-lilanga-bilingual-sarencomascelloni/bk/9788876244933+%22George+lilanga%22+lutamba&cd=6&hl=sv&ct=clnk&source=www.google.com

LUTAMBA IS RUTAMBA But according to the UN list of refugee camps and Tanzanian Ministry of Home affairs there exists no such refugee camp Lutamba. We find only Rutamba refugee camp. See here: http://www.moha.go.tz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=14&Itemid=127

RUTAMBA WAS ESTABLISHED FIRST IN 1974 A number of websites suggest that a town called Rutamba was established AFTER the refugee camp was closed. This website claim that Rutamba town was established in 1974. http://www.tzonline.org/pdf/socialdevelopment.pdf

LUTAMBA CAMP = RUTAMBA CAMP = RUTAMBA TOWN As often in Kiswahili the “R” and “L” are interchangeable and in addition Lilanga could not pronounce “R”. Rutamba could be simply mistaken for Lutamba. Then the town and the refugee camp cited in books and Wikipedia would be fully identifiable as a town and previously as a refugee settlement situated in Lindi district.

The authors of the books have 2 problems regarding "Lutamba". First - they refer to a refugee camp Lutamba which never existed. They made outrighly false statement. Second - they can´t identify Lutamba village. Clearly they misinterpeted "R" as "L" in the first case. It is highly probably that they also similarly misinterpreted "R" as "L" in the name of the town.

--Tuptan (talk) 17:19, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Footnote: According to Wikipedia there is a city in south Tanzania called Lutamba. In 2011 it shoudl be possible to verify the existence of a city in any part of the world. Otherwise we talk about a new "Atlantis" in the jungle of Tanzania where most famous sculptors of Africa studied art just 35 years ago. I wonder when someone puts a link to "Lutamba" - it is red link now. Just joke... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tuptan (talk • contribs) 17:35, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

My name is Akulyavanji Ambweni, born just across Lindi bay; I grew up with refugee children from Mozambique in a sisal plantation. Many of them returned during the war and after; I am really troubled by the widely distorted notion that Makonde art originates from Tanzania, as far as I am concerned it ins't true! Lutamba/Rutamba is just a relatively hinterland village and had the said camp in its vicinities. The problem with this world is that we have too much desk-top expertise, it would be fine if the products were only for the experts' dwellings, but they are consumed in all forms world over! I can be reached through, tenparallel@gmail.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.46.106.86 (talk) 11:51, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Rutamba is my home village. It's not a city, a relatively large village, at least you can call it small town. I've nothing to comment about the guy so called George Lulanga but what am gonna say is, Rutamba existed before 1964...so, it's not true that it didn't exist before 1964 and its existence is just because of establishment of refuge camps. Refugee camps are almost 2 km from Rutamba Central... UNHCR built the hospital in 1964 to serve refugees in Rutamba central so as it'd also serves residents. If Rutamba didn't exist, UNHCR couldn't built hospital 2 km away from refugee camps in the middle of forestry. Many other services were introduced as a result of these refugees but many of these were established near the normal residents so as they can benefit. All these, starting with hospital, police station and post office,all were built almost 2 km away from the camps so as it'd also serve residents. If Rutamba didn't exist, these services couldn't be built that far. My mom is approaching 60 and she's born in Rutamba! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.222.177.106 (talk) 11:51, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Who published the text on Legacy first?
Hi, the text of the last paragraph on Legacy is identical to this page: http://www.georgelilanga.com/ I am not able to ascertain, who wrote and published this first, but as there were no references for this paragraph so far, I have at least added this link as a source. - If the text in WP is in fact a copy of the webpage by the commercial online art gallery publishing http://www.georgelilanga.com/, it should, of course, be removed and rewritten. - Can anyone help? Munfarid1 (talk) 18:02, 2 December 2020 (UTC)