Talk:George Lloyd (scholar)

Sons
The ODNB has an article on Gamaliel Lloyd the son, and it gives further information on his brothers George and John. John has to be John Lloyd (scientist) from the list of FRSs, to make the dates fit. Gamaliel, "merchant and political reformer", became involved with Christopher Wyvill. George was a barrister, according to the ODNB.

I'm currently interested in George, in case he is the George Lloyd involved in the Manchester Constitutional Society, which is at least vaguely plausible. Charles Matthews (talk) 20:55, 30 May 2015 (UTC)


 * No connection between the two Georges is discernible from JSTOR, British Newspaper Archive, Questia, GBooks (UK and US views) or the databases of a very good US university library, nor in my collection of local history books/pamphlets. I'm having trouble logging into Project Muse at the moment. MCS was quite a small and notorious outfit, if I am remembering my local history correctly. George the barrister had his finger in a few pies, the Manchester Agricultural Society being one. Lived variously in Moss Side and Quay Street, Manchester; married in Wakefield 1779; died in 1804 while convalescing in Bath; his will is catalogued at the National Archives. - Sitush (talk) 04:04, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm currently working on Thomas Walker (merchant), which is why this comes up. According to The Strange Case of Thomas Walker by Frida Knight (pp.39–40), Walker, Thomas Cooper and George Lloyd "a barrister friend" together attended the 1790 public meeting called by Edward Place (details per the article). This makes it at least quite plausible that the two George Lloyds are one. Knight quotes from pamphlet literature a couple of pages later, suggesting Lloyd had become a follower of Cooper. This all may lead somewhere. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:41, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Ah, some dates come up. George Lloyd the son was 1750–1805, per ; and the member of the Constitution Society died 1805, per. Does look like a match. The first ref has plenty of context. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:55, 2 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Some sources says 1804, IIRC. This seems a bit close to original research, as does using what amounts potentially to sensationalised trial transcripts in the Walker article. Very interesting stuff but pushing the boundaries of what might be considered acceptable on Wikipedia. The comment about the Manchester Mercury might be worth a closer look. I've got the magnum opus of Stephen Koss here somewhere and will trawl it for any references. I wonder, too, if something might be in Thompson's classic book on the English working-class, even though these characters seem not to be of that ilk. I'll trawl through that one, also. - Sitush (talk) 20:08, 2 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Pauline Handforth, “Manchester Radical Politics, 1789-1794,” Transactions of the Lancashire and Cheshire Antiquarian Society v. 66 (1956): 95 looks like it might be useful but getting hold of a copy could be a problem. The MCS really should have its own article. - Sitush (talk) 20:41, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Transactions of the Lancashire and Cheshire Antiquarian Society I can get.

Yes, 1804 seems to be correct. I'm aware of the OR issue, naturally: but in identifications one is always doing "research" of some sort. The article is under construction until the references have been sorted out.

George Lloyd the barrister was on the anti-slavery committee, as I have just found out. Samuel Parr wrote him an epitaph, and knew others of the radical group. I'm convinced, but it is not something I'll do anything about right now. Thanks again for your help. Charles Matthews (talk) 20:45, 2 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I've ordered a copy of the Transactions. Should be here by the tail-end of this week. I knew about the anti-slavery committee but the significance of Parr passed me by. Amazingly, the index for Koss mentions numerous Mancunian newspapers but neither the Mercury nor the short-lived Herald. I agree that the likelihood is that the barrister Lloyd is the son of this Lloyd. As you are aware, the problem is proving it without synthesis etc, which is something I frequently find to be an irritation when working on local subjects. - Sitush (talk) 20:52, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Interestingly, the reference I gave above to Katrina Navickas, Loyalism and Radicalism in Lancashire, 1798-1815, p. 35 gives as note 67 a D.Phil. that I had already found asa PDF: It pretty much meets what WP:RS says about dissertations, with all those caveats. It doesn't mention Lloyd! It has plenty about Walker and others though, in particular his later life. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:45, 3 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Got the Transactions. It is an interesting article but Lloyd is not mentioned anywhere within it. - Sitush (talk) 00:17, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

See Talk:Thomas Walker (merchant) for how things have been left. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:13, 15 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Both the George Lloyds of Stockton Hall were landowners in Chorlton-cum-Hardy (cp. "== John M. Lloyd, author of book on Chorlton ==

John Lloyd describes himself as "An Old Chorltonian" on the titlepage of the book being from the old village. When he died in 1991 the South Manchester Reporter reported his membership of many transport history societies and that his grandmother was a draper in Beech Road. An article in the Stretford & Urmston Journal (1978?) gives much more information about him: he was then 64 and his mother Edith was 92. The research for The Township of Chorlton-cum-Hardy took him 18 months and he says he decided to write it because of all the enquiries he got from children (he was a teacher at Chorlton Boys' Grammar School from 1947 until he resigned in 1973: comprehensive education was not to his liking). It is unlikely there is any connection with the two George Lloyds who owned land in Chorlton: the Lloyd's Hotel was an enterprise of James Platt and has a coat of arms of the Lloyd family on the front. George Lloyd resided at Stockton Hall in Yorkshire so Stockton was given to Stockton Road south of High Lane.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 19:42, 12 November 2012 (UTC)"--Johnsoniensis (talk) 16:42, 31 December 2020 (UTC)