Talk:Gerald FitzGerald, 14th Earl of Desmond

Earl was the 14th, or the 15th?
This earl was the 14th, and I propose to move the article accordingly. I'm not sure how this will affect links. Any objections?--shtove 21:35, 13 December 2005 (UTC)


 * What makes you think he was the 14th? Proteus (Talk) 07:43, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

He is referred to as the 14th in the new DNB and, on checking their indexes, by Canny and Falls. The reason I'm tentative is that this is the title given to him in many other linked articles, which may have to be changed.--shtove 11:12, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * He's called the 15th Earl by all the Peerage references I've seen, and the DNB is hardly an authoritative source on such matters (it calls the FitzGeralds "Fitzgerald", for a start). Which of the previous 14 Earls are they claiming did not exist? Proteus (Talk) 11:31, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I have a copy here of Steven Ellis Tudor Ireland (1985) - p.337 has the list of Earls of Desmond: James Fitzjohn Fitzgerald - 13th earl, d. 14 Oct 1558 Gerald FitzJames Fitzgerald - 14th earl, d. 11 Nov 1583 James Fitzgerald - 15th earl, d. c. Nov 1601 The claim is not that a previous earl didn't exist, but that the 15th earl was the last ie. the Tower Earl.--shtove 19:16, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * The Earls before him were Maurice, Maurice, Nicholas, Gerald, John, Thomas, James, Thomas, James, Maurice, James, Thomas, James and James, which is 14. The DNB must think one of them didn't exist... (The "Tower Earl", incidentally, was 1st (and last) Earl of a later (1600) creation.) Proteus (Talk) 19:58, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Ellis only goes back to mid-15thC. His partial sequence corresponds to your list of names, but not the numbering:
 * (#7) Thomas FitzJames - d.1468
 * (#8) James FitzThomas - d.1487
 * (#9) Maurice FitzThomas - d.1520
 * (#10) James FitzMaurice - d.1529
 * (#11) Thomas FitzThomas - d.1534
 * (#12) James FitzMaurice - d.1540
 * (#13) James FitzJohn - d.1558
 * (#14) Gerald FitzJames - d.1583
 * (#15) James Fitzgerald - d.1601

I take the point about the Tower Earl being a new creation (I think I included that in my article on him). But we are at an impasse: the principal historians of this period say 14th, the peerage says 15th. I put this to User: Jdorney a few days ago, but he hasn't got back to me - maybe you could try him.--shtove 23:03, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Reopening the debate
This is clearly an old discussion, but one which remains unresolved. I've assembled the publications that I've been able to find on the subject on Talk:Earl of Desmond; maybe a consensus can be reached when all are assessed together. KerryMuso (talk) 16:37, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Moved 15 -> 14 & 14 -> 13th
I found we had earl no 12 (plus 12 de facto) but no earl 13. have been bold (too bold) and have moved (renamed) the two last Earls before the Tower Earl. I hope you agree. I will slowly work through all the mentions that need to be changed in consequence.

Second marriage
Was the Eleanor Butler mentioned the daughter of Richard Butler, 1st Viscount Mountgarret? If so, she must later have married Lord Cahir. The timelines are just possible. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:56, 14 September 2010 (UTC)