Talk:Gerechtigkeitsspirale

Freer English translation
I wonder if listing the German text, a literal translation, and a free (perhaps rhyming and/or metered) English translation would be useful? Is there a precedent in a Good Article? — Brianhe (talk) 14:47, 24 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I think my translation is a rather literal translation. If rhyming but loosing meaning would help I don't know. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:50, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Look at Der Erlkönig for an example. I'll try to work on something rhyming today. — Brianhe (talk) 14:55, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Here's a try. I had to slightly change the rhyming scheme to make it work.
 * Justice suffers in great need:
 * The truth has been slain dead,
 * And faith lies on the field, defeated.
 * Falsehood reigns like the high-born,
 * Earning Lord God's wrath and scorn.
 * O Man who reads, let this quit,
 * Or lose yourself forevermore;
 * Commit yourself to justice.
 * -- Brianhe (talk) 19:28, 24 March 2015 (UTC)


 * That is a very thoughtful approach, thank you! A few wishes, of course. I think Gerechtigkeit, Wahrheit, Glaube are like figures, capital that is: Justice, Truth, Faith, Falsehood. - Can we keep "Streit" - battle, conflict or whatever? The "reigns" is nowhere in the German. "Wrath and scorn" is a bit too much, but one of them might be better than "anger", - I don't know scorn well enough to judge. By relating "earning" to the line before you give up the clear separation (in German) of the description of four lines and the consequences in the other four. "las ab" comes from "ablassen" = let go (not "ablesen"). I don't know if "lose yourself forevermore" captures eternal damnation strongly enough. The last line reads more like our time than 16th century ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:47, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, this (poetry) isn't really my thing, I just threw it out there for somebody else to work with. I agree with your assessment of the personification of virtues, especially justice as Lady Justice, but in English I don't think we personify falsehood the same way. — Brianhe (talk) 22:22, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Problem is that Falschheit isn't really "falsehood" (fact, something is wrong), - is there a better word in Englisch of saying something intentionally that you know is wrong, almost like Lüge = lie? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:35, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Deception, fiction, fabrication all fit. — Brianhe (talk) 16:15, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Although I am far from fluent in German, I think I have a sense of it, particularly with the help of the comments above; so may I humbly submit an attempt at rendering the text into English?
 * Righteousness suffers in great need:
 * Truth is beaten to death,
 * Faith has given up the fight;
 * Lies are raised on high.


 * All this angers the Lord our God;
 * O mankind, desist.
 * That you may not be forever lost:
 * Praise righteousness.

Sadly, these suggestions all involve a degree of poetic licence and are liable to be condemned as WP:OR. Without a decent source, perhaps the best we can do is a literal translation. Are there any sources that give a decent English translation? A guidebook perhaps?

I also suspect this article was also originally translated from the German one, and I am struggling a little with some of the vocabulary: can someone please explain what is a "parapet plate"? And what are "laity stalls"? It would help to see an interior image of the church, but is it sort of decorative panel attached to (or above?) the pews for the (lay) congregation, in the main body (or nave) of the church? Or something else, elsewhere? And what is a "buffoonery? There is a (comic?) cartoon-like image of a face hidden in the foliage - a caricature, perhaps?

It seems to me (WP:OR alert again) that there might be a double meaning in the verse: one to do with theological purity (have faith; stop sinning; seek righteousness) and one to do with political or civil rights (tell the truth; seek justice). Do the sources say anything about that?

On the sources, there does not appear to be much (anything?) in English, but may I suggest this: (and a link to shape poem) and possibly these

Hope this helps. -- Ferma (talk) 17:46, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Translation is a specific exemption from WP:NOR so I think we're safe there. — Brianhe (talk) 19:10, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I found the translation and didn't question it, at least not enough perhaps. Look at the church article for context, and perhaps get over what would help. I will get the commons cat over, to have the images available. Laiengestühl means the seating for the congregation, in opposition to the choir for the clergy. The church has three naves. The plate is the front of the first pew of the left nave (seen from the back), closest to the altar. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:00, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
 * ps: Gerechtigkeit is not righteousness which would be Rechtschaffenheit, - justice is closest, fairness would also be possible but seems too modern a word. - "caricature" taken, also most of the poem, excellent ideas! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:05, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The last line. "Praise which is just"? Irondome (talk) 21:13, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

@Brianhe: "Faithfully translating sourced material into English, or transcribing spoken words from audio or video sources, is not considered original research"; but could the addition of creativity with the language and idiom turn faithful translation into something more "original"? Perhaps I am worrying about nothing, but I would be happier with a proper source for the translation.

@Gerda: It is possible for a church to have (or at least to be described as having) more than one nave, but this plan and this image suggests there is one nave with an aisle to either side. It sounds like the front of a pew, but this source describes it as a "choir stall" (although I am not sure I should trust this source, as the transcription of the German is not entirely accurate; that said, I do believe it when it says it may be the earliest known shape poem in the German language).

The dictionaries I am looking at suggest that "Gerechtigkeit" can be translated as justice or righteousness - for example, see this and this. I've made a few changes to the text, and added the one English source I mentioned above. My German is not good enough to know whether the other German sources I mentioned might help, but there appears to be a suggestion in one of them that there are other carved texts in the church too: are any of them worth adding to the article? -- Ferma (talk) 18:32, 1 April 2015 (UTC)


 * In the link to Benrath's work, he puts "Gerechtigkeit" in context with the "Gerechtigkeit" of Christ (δικαιοσύνη) in 1 Corinthians 1:30, where most English Bibles do use righteousness, (see also Righteousness), but it's not presented as the only authoritative interpretation. Other interpretations I saw refer to "soziale Gerechtigkeit" which would be "social justice", but the ones I found aren't reliable sources. (The 1862 Catholic magazine you linked to doesn't interpret, but it's interesting for featuring another carved poem from the same church. This one is about Jewish deicide but I guess that's neither here nor there regarding the translation of "Gerechtigkeit"). ---Sluzzelin  talk  11:56, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Carved?
The text always refers to this work as "carved", but it is clearly painted as well. Was the paint original? Has it been restored? --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 17:42, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
 * If you look at the church article you see that the church is under restoration. I assume that everything has been done to restore the original as far as possible, but I can't write that in the article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:58, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

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