Talk:German Shepherd/Archive 1

My shutzhund
We were the proud owners of Shandlebourg Harko (KIM)to us, the British N.E Schutzhund club's very 1st Schutzhund 111 dog. We went into this sport completely green, Kim was bought as a pet and all his life gave us a lot of love, he loved a cuddle and gave us his all, with the expertise help and hard work of helper Ian Lynch and advice from Michael Naisbit,( neither had Qualified a schutzhund 111 dog theirselves ) who had watched Schutzhund and helped bring it over to Britain we qualified Kim Schutzhund 111 at the very early age of 2 years old. We entered Kim in trials all over the country and had a great time, he gave us a lot of pleasure all his life. H e Qualified to compete in the National Championships 3 times and tried very hard but alas we noticed something not right, it took a while but found he had a slipped disc, he was only seven years old yet he had still competed, he was so brave. We took him to the best we knew, Mr Ness at Blyth who operated on him, the operation went well and all seemed ok but, not wanting to take chances decided to retire him from trials, later we were glad we did as another disc went 18 month later at the age of 8yrs, this time the news was bad, Mr Ness couldnt operate, it would have needed two plates and would have greatly weakened his spine which would probably have snapped so we took him home, gave him all the medication available to make sure he was not in any pain and keep his muscles supple loved and spoiled him for a few more precious months but the time came in October 2002 when the paralasys got to a point when Kim needed help so we very sadly had him put to sleep. We will always love him and we miss him so much, always his man and dad, Sandra and Brian.


 * Strangely, Malcolm Ness was the consultant on my lab, when he was suspected of having hip dysplasia. But he didn't, at least, not major enough to worry over. He's indeed very good at what he does. Sorry to hear the sad story. FT2 12:28, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)


 * Enjoyed this page! --EKBK 18:11, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

American vs. other lines
If the American and international breeds differ, can we have a picture of both and the key differences? FT2 12:28, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)


 * This is a very controversial topic. I tried to write a neutral description, but never succeeded. Here is my admittedly biased description. If someone wants to try to turn it into a more balanced description, have at it. I don't have any copyright free pictures, but I can give some links.


 * The internation working lines have been bred more for performance at Schutzhund and tending style herding than for looks. Since the founding stock was herding dogs, it is not surprising that the working lines more closely resemble the original founding stock. Working dogs have a wider range of coat colors (sable, black and tan, bi-color, black), a more level back, a steeper croup and upper arm, among other differences.


 * The international show lines were basically indentical to the working lines up to around 1970. Perhaps the last great show/working dogs were Bodo and Bernd vom Lierberg (1967). It is not clear to me why the split occured, but it is easy to see from looking at the pictures from the time. The split accelerated rapidly in the early 1990's when the Martin brothers gained control of the SV. They pushed a "banana backed" carrot colored dog that is still prevalent in the international show ring. The working lines tried to resist the trend, but since they share the same gene pool, you can see some show characteristics in the modern working lines. There has been a slight retreat from the extremes advocated by the Martin brothers, but it is still easy to recognize an international show lines dog by the color and arched back. SV Champions The left most column of pictures is show males, the middle column show females, and the right column working dogs (probably all males).


 * The American/Canadian show dog was largely identical to the international dogs up until the mid 1960's. Although the American breeders did not emphasize Schutzhund, there was a lot of traffic between Germany and North American that maintained the working characteristics of the American show dog. Lance of Fran Jo (1969) was possibly the start of the split between America and the rest of the world. Compared to other dogs of the time he had extreme angulation of the hock (rear ankle joint) and supposedly a beautiful flying trot. Well, if a little is good, a whole lot more must be better. American breeders began to push for more and more extreme angulation, almost to the exclusion of all other traits. American show lines are easily recognized by their extremely angulated, almost collapsed rear end and swan neck. Seen head on they appear very narrow compared to the broader international dogs. 2003 GSDCA Nationals Scroll down to the Grand Victor and Grand Victorix. These are the ideal GSD acording to the US show establishment.


 * I haven't touched on the temperament and health. American show lines have been a victim of puppy mills and can be spooky and fear aggressive. International show lines probably make the best pets temperament wise although occasionally you will come across a fearful one. They are less active than working lines. Working lines are not good pets for most people. They must be trained to do a job or they will invent one of their own. A bored German Shepherd is a destructive German Shepherd. Some working lines dogs can be very hard (resistent to corrections), independent, and agressive, but most are very even tempered. Unfortunately the health of all lines is suspect.


 * There are other lines as well. Due to the isolation brought about by the rabies quarantine, the UK developed a very deep chested show dog that is still referred to as an "Alsatian" by some to distinguish it from the international lines. America has developed some oversized lines, the Shilo and King shepherds, and some breeders are breeding all white dogs.


 * See for more pictures and information. This site is an advocate for the working lines. Dsurber 04:28, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)


 * I think it could be interesting to mention the different international lines. Here in northern Europe the American line (with collapsed hindlegs) is considered an animal welfare issue and is very very unusual. I have heard some vetrinarians don't even treat these dogs, partly not to support the ownership, partly to avoid the dangers of unpredictable behaviour. P.S. 05:48, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * If by this you mean things like the differences between German (international) lines and DDR or Chech or French lines, then we are getting very specialized. Due to the Iron Curtain, the Eastern block dogs were isolated for forty years and there are some differences. Eastern block show dogs remained much closer to their working cousins. Eastern block working dogs were not much influenced by the Western (international) show lines. Eastern dogs, working and show, tend to be blockier, smaller and perhaps more hard and aggressive than their Western counterparts. French dogs were largely bred for Ring Sport more than Schutzhund and tend to be lighter and more athletic. Herding lines dogs (HGH) have also changed over the years. It used to be they were strongly attracted to sheep and were strong independent workers. Because there is much less need for actual herding dogs and because of the way HGH trails are judged, the dogs have lost some of their independend working ability. This is all broad generalization and individuals in each line vary considerably. As you divide the breed into smaller groups it becomes harder to distinguish them. They are all still German Shepherd Dogs, well except for American show lines which really should be considered as separate breed IMHO. DSurber 00:23, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The URL for "realgsd" (See above [1]"for more pictures and informaton") has changed to: http://realgsd.ca I am the owner of that web site and hereby give permission to use any of my graphics and articles here in Wikipedia. I would like to become a contributor here, but have yet to find out how to ad pictures. --Rgsd 17:27, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Ace the bat hound and bizhat
I have reverted the addition of a link to http://germanshepherd.bizhat.com. The link doesn't add much information about the dog and some of the information on that page might be copyrighted. It's far better to link to more official resources when it comes to breed standards and such. P.S. 18:07, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I removed Ace the Bathound and the link to http://germanshepherd.bizhat.com again. Ace the Bathound is linked in the list of fictional dogs. As noted below http://germanshepherd.bizhat.com doesn't add much. This is the second time each of these links has been added and removed. I'm not an experienced Wikipedian so I don't know how do deal with such revision wars, but if these edits reappear, we probably should do something. DSurber 19:46, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Re: Ace, The Bat-Hound;
Ace, the Bat-Hound is an important Chapter of GSD lore. If he doesn't get a seperate link on the GSD page, Ace's page probably should have one.

Michael Reiter.


 * I doubt that most people except fans of older Batman comics (and I'm one) would even recognize the reference. I'd say that Ace is far less important than, say, Rin Tin Tin, and at the moment even RTT doesn't have a link here. So we should either go ahead & duplicate all fictional & famous GSDs here with appropriate headings (meaning we'll have to maintain the lists here & on the main list pages) or we shdn't be listing just one.  Elf | Talk 19:56, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Re: Re: Ace, The Bat-Hound-"I'd say that Ace is far less important than, say, Rin Tin Tin-"
I have to disagree. Ace is a treasured part of the silver age Batman mythos, and a treasured part of the vast, rich legacy of the GSD. He deserves his own link because he has his own page. I didn't write it, and I don't know who did. Incidentally, all GSDs are heirs apparents to a vast, rich legacy of loyalty and bravery that they and their fictional counterparts are heir to.

I hope to see a page or pages on Both Littlest Hoboes, and Rex the Wonder Dog, if there aren't any already... Michael Reiter


 * No, I don't consider it important information about the breed. List of fictional dogs is just for that, and link to the list as well as perhaps a comment that GSD are often found in fiction is more than enough. Ace is not very well known outside a small group of fans. No need to weight down the article with pointless links. P.S. 13:47, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

White GSDs
''Moved section from article to Berger Blanc Suisse; moved this Talk section to Talk:Berger Blanc Suisse; haven't done any merging or editing, though. Elf | Talk 21:48, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)''

East German Shepherd Dog Breed
I can't find any evidence of an effort to create an East German Shepherd Dog breed. I know several people who are very involved with DDR dogs and they have never heard of such. The statement to that effect needs backing references.

I agree that there is a DDR line of dogs, but from what I have seen that line is being rapidly integrated into the international lines. There are a lot of people, myself included, that like the DDR dogs. It is hard to find a dog bred entirely from DDR stock. It is easy to find a working dog with a lot of DDR dogs behind him/her. There are also other important lines such as the Chech lines. A discussion of DDR dogs is worthwhile, but only as part of a broader discussion of the other Eastern block dogs and their impact on the breed as a whole. Read the History @ http://www.geocities.com/johnscz_ddr_k9/DDR_History.html


 * Cool. Can you write up such a thing, or modify the recent post to be broader spectrum? I don't know anything about it myself.  Elf | Talk 17:45, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I'll give it a try but I'm pretty sure someone will have to edit it for POV. Dsurber 13:11, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The former DDR's registry was officially taken over by the SV after the fall of the iron curtain, thus the "DDR" GSD can never be a seperate breed. Also, there used to be a lot more show breeding going on in the former DDR then is known in North America. --Rgsd 17:25, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Giant Shepherds, etc., etc.
It seems that this article has become a method for adding credibility to fringe breed lines not generaly recognized by the dog world, and in the case of the "Shiloh Shepherd", what seems to be an outright advertisement by a specific breeder.

Anyone can breed dogs that lie outside of the accepted standards, and there are plenty of organizations that cater to those breeders by recognizing oddball breeds. So I suggest that we limit the discussion to the GSD and the breed lines which are widely recognized. The discussion on working dogs vs show dogs, for example, is very relevant to those interested in the breed; but "oversized" doesn't seem worthy of inclusion, unless the discussion centers around the substantial health problems associated with those dogs.

Similarly, I would argue against giving white and long-haired shepherds separate headings, since they are both considered faults within the breed - unless the discussion centers around that context. The argument for a DDR heading is just weak.

Finally, the statement that the white haired shepherd has always existed is just wrong. The white fur is a recessive trait, and these dogs were specifically bred for their coat color. The resulting temperment problems are well known and discussed. Again, this is an attempt to give credibility to an otherwise discredited breed line.


 * We've had various discussions over the last year and a half in various places (most likely the dog breeds project pages and Talk:List of dog breeds archives) about "what makes a breed a breed". What it boiled down to is that, if people are likely to be looking in an encyclopedia for a reasonably legitimate breed name, there ought to be a description of it. For example, cockapoos aren't recognized by any breed registry, but the name has been used for so long by so many people that it has some legitimacy as a name that many people are likely to want to know more about; "semidachshund", which is what i use for my own mixed breed, is entirely contrived and individual and has no place here.  So the next decision is what is "reasonably legitimate". I, for one, check my various dog books and go Web searching whenever a new breed appears somewhere in Wikipedia. If it looks as if there are multiple breeders using the name, breed clubs that promote the breed, and so on, it seems reasonable to include the breed here.  If one wants to know what the AKC or the FCI has recognized, they can go to their web sites to find out more.  Elf | Talk 28 June 2005 20:51 (UTC)


 * Sure, and maybe I'm a little harsh on the Shiloh crowd. BUT, I would argue there needs to be some editorial input as to how these unrecognized lines are presented.  For example, I think it's entirely appropriate to add a heading called "Variations" or something similar, under which are descripions of or links to the breed lines that are not recognized as part of the GSD standard.  That way, maybe we can list the breed lines without getting caught in dog-world politics.  After all, this is an article on the GSD, not "dogs that look like a GSD", or "dogs that were developed from the GSD".  See my point?  On the other hand, if there is a real debate whether particlular lines meet the standard, then a description of the debate under a separate heading is appropriate, such as the one we have for show vs. working lines.


 * Got it. I agree. I moved to a new Variants section under Miscellaneous. See whether that covers your objections.  Elf | Talk 29 June 2005 22:16 (UTC)

Bum's Rush?
Why is the cat putting the bum's rush on the dog in that picture? What does that even mean? 68.220.225.227 15:11, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Getting "The Bum's Rush" is slang for being kicked out of a place, usually violently (onto your bum).  This is most often used in the context of a resturant or bar.   And that cat is clearly trying to get that german shepherd dog to leave!   I think this could be an amercianism. Trysha 18:01, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Hey, Trysha!
Hello, Trysha. This is Michael 20:15, 29 July 2005 (UTC). "Getting the Bum's Rush", is found on both sides of the 49th parallel. That is essentially what is happening in the picture, with the Korat Cat repelling the friendly advances of the German Shepherd Dog.

Write me back sometime! Michael 20:15, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

"German Shepherd"
Moved from top

I contributed this text and it was removed: Note that the correct name for these animals is German Shepherd Dog, which is a translation from German wprd "Deutscheschäferhund." Referring to them as "German Shepherds" is incorrect, albeit common. I find many references (including on the Wikipedia) to "German Shepherd" as opposed to "German Shepherd Dog," which is the correct translation. Reading some of the pages, you'd think lots of people owned German lamb-tenders ;) I think there should be a mention of this incorrect usage on the page...what do you all think? -Drew


 * Your text (or something similar) is still in the article. It is now in the Miscellaneous section. Dsurber 17:33, 15 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Yup, it was redundant info, that's why I took it out; I did say "rm duplicate info" in comments, visible in history. Elf | Talk 18:39, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Herd training
Hello, I just added a page on specific German Shepherd herd and flock training on my website and placed a link here. Hope you'll find it appropriate, since it focuses on the initial purpose this dog was bred for - herding.

Thanks!

THe dog trainer 13:30, 26 December 2005 (UTC)


 * what we're saying in the discussion is that one training site needs only one link to it. Also, info on training-GSD page seems like would be apropos to many breeds, not just GSD. Elf | Talk 18:33, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

white GSDs I have made some changes and removed all references to the Nazi as I have never found any evidence that the Nazis actually influenced the disqualification of the white GSD.

white GSD edited
I have made some changes, inserted FCI references, and removed all references to the Nazi as I have never found any evidence that the Nazis actually influenced the disqualification of the white GSD.

added King Shepherd
with giant section, article to follow. Mymazdatribute 02:59, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks
I just wanted to express my gratitude to the authors of this article. My wife and I are currently shopping for a German Shepard Dog, and we found the information presented here most helpful.

Thanks again!

Missing information
Hi. I was brought to this article by a link in the Bloodhound article, where it was stated that, despite that breed's reputation to find and follow human scent, they are not necessarily the appropriate breed to track all types of scent. Specifically, it was saying that, in order to find a deceased individual (known or suspected), other breeds are preferred, and especially the German Shepherd (it also included a link to the term "cadaver dog", of which the German Shepherd would be an example). That being the case, I was surprised to see that the article seems to contain no information on this breed's scenting ability, or have I missed it? If I haven't, then I believe we are missing a relevant piece of information on this breed. Regards, Redux 17:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * There are many kinds of scent work and it would not surprise me if GSDs on average are better at some kinds of scent than Bloodhounds. I know a fair amount about practical scent work with GSDs, but not nearly enough to compare them Bloodhounds or any other breed. I've only seen one Bloodhound do scent work (training for her VST) and she was very, very impressive. I've seen quite a number of GSDs and their interest in scent work varies. The good ones are every bit as good as the one Bloodhound I've seen.


 * You are right, there needs to be a section on GSD working abilities, including scent work. Many people think that GSDs are the best all around working breed. A section describing the traits that lead to that conclusion would be a valuable addition to the article. I wish I had time to write it. Dsurber 05:39, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Question
This sentence is found in the intro to the article: "Because they (German Shepherds) are eager to please, they are easily trained in obedience and protection."

So this in effect is saying that all German Shepherds share the same behavior (in seeking to please). Is it possible to breed dogs for behavioral traits (which seems similar to eugenics theory to me), with German Shepherds being all eager while some other dog breeds are not? This seems innacurate to me and draws detestable parallels to the argument about race superiority with some "races" or "lines" of humans being behaviorally different and/or more intellectually gifted than others. 172.131.144.73 23:50, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Absolutely it is possible to breed dogs for behavioral traits. The most important traits of most working breeds are the behavioral traits, not the physical ones. Yes, physical traits are important, but the range of acceptable physcial types is far greater for a working breed that the range of acceptable behavioral traits. One example is the Border Collie. The traits that define a Border Collie are entirely behavioral. If a dog wins or places highly at several National Sheepdog Trials, the working Border Collie breed club will consider registering the dog as a Border Collie. Notice that no emphasis is placed on the dog's pedigree or physical appearance. The only thing that matters is does the dog have the behavioral traits required to win a National Sheepdog Trial.


 * More relevant to GSDs, I train GSDs in Schutzhund. In my experience show bred GSDs rarely have all the behavioral traits required to do Schutzhund well. Working bred GSDs have a set of behavioral traits that are necessary to do Schutzhund and working GSD breeders breed for those traits. Specific traits include prey drive (the desire to chase moving objects), defense drive (the drive to defend yourself when threatened), fight drive (the desire to prove you are tougher than the other guy), pack drive (the desire to cooperate with the other pack members, specifically the handler), hunt drive (the desire to follow scent to find something), and so on. Do not doubt for a second that these traits are heritable. I have seen it over and over.


 * I can go on and on about the behavioral traits of all the working breeds that I am familiar with. But this has nothing to do with human beings. It is the case that selective breeding can influence intelligence and other behavior traits in dogs. It's a fair assumption that the same is true of human beings, but no one practices selective breeding of humans. One would be ignoring biology to assert that it is not possible to affect human intelligence via selective breeding (eugenics) just because it is distasteful. Clearly, to carry out such a program would be as unethical and inhumane as you imply. There are any number of heritable diseases. It would be possible to breed a population of humans that all had some heritable disase. There is no question about the truth of that statement. But doing so would be horrible. No question about that either. But because some act is inhumane cannot imply that we deny the biological possibility. That is intellectually dishonest. So to deny that it is biologically possible for different human races to have different behavior traits is intellectually dishonest. It is even more dishonest to deny the possiblity in another species. Behavior traits in dogs are heritable. Behavior traits in people are almost certainly heritable. Breeds of dogs have distinctive sets of behavioral traits. It is biologically possible that different human races have different sets of behavior traits. Most evidence, however, indicates that the range of intelligence within any one human race (however defined) far exceeds the difference between races, if there is any meaningful difference at all. Just because it is biologically possible doesn't mean it is true. Dsurber 02:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Rescues
Can someone clarify this? In a previous version, the GSD appeared to do the rescuing in North America. With the current wording, it looks like it's "unfortunate" that GSDs are rescued. Which is it?--Son of Somebody 23:14, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

NPOV Intelligence
This section DOES NOT include all dog breeds but concentrates only on those recognized by the AKC. User:Noles1984 16:09, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I've removed that section.  The link to the "study" that was given was neither reliable nor verifiable - as such it is not be allowed as a source for wikipedia.  To make matters worse, it was pretty much spam.   An ad-o-riffic website with a tiny amount of info from who-knows-where.    That brings the section down to one NPOV sentence that is not backed up.   Discussing dog intelligence is an NPOV risky area anyway - depending on what you consider to be "intelligence"  (is rote following commands intelligence, what about hunting dogs that are terrible at obedience trained but exhibit problem solving abilites in other way).    It is more neutral to say that these dogs are easily trained (and leave out the comparisons to other dog breeds), then cite the fact that they are used by guide dog schools, as police dogs, etc.. because of this.  - Trysha (talk) 20:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Wolf lineage
keeps inserting comments about "wolf blood" into this article and other dog articles. Is there anything to that claim? I can't find any reliable sources to support the contention. Tubezone 14:37, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Wolf blood was once in the GSD as with all dogs,but as to wolf blood in the GSD's to day,no. Also I see an error in the Miscellaneous section.The article says "in 1930 the British Kennel Club authorise the breed to be known again as the German Shepherd Dog." the date is wrong.It was 1977 source, http://www.germanshepherds.com/thegsd/history/ Dos lingo 16:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Correct German Name?
I find only Deutsche Schäferhund, not Deutscher Schäferhund. I am not a native German speaker, but I've always heard Deutsche Schäferhund. I changed it to Deutsche Schäferhund assuming it was a typo...if not, can someone comment definitively here (and why - I believe the -er rather than -e is to match case and gender, so perhaps it's variable?)
 * Upon further research, it appears Deutsche/Deutscher is variable depending on the gender. I believe Deutscher is correct for hund, while Deutsche would be correct for hunde, the female.  Can someone with a better command of German please confirm?  If this is correct, I'll make it clear in the article. Afabbro 20:24, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

the singular is "deutscher Schäferhund", the plural "deutsche Schäferhunde", —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.123.0.25 (talk • contribs) 15:08, July 6, 2007

The female form would be Deutsche Schäferhündin (singular), —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.65.198.63 (talk • contribs) 09:11, July 21, 2007

Its somewhat more complicate in German, it depends on singular/plural, definite/indefinite article, and the grammatical case. (It depends also on the sex, but the default not only for dog breeds is grammatically male, somewhat similar to "actor" in English which may denote both actresses and male actors. Here are some translations for the nominative: German Shepherd Dog: Deutscher Schäferhund a German Shepherd Dog: ein Deutscher Schäferhund the German Shepherd Dog: der Deutsche Schäferhund German Shepherd Dogs: Deutsche Schäferhunde the German Shepherd Dogs: die Deutschen Schäferhunde

My sense for how to correctly use foreign words in an English text may be misleading me as non-native English speaker, but I guess the following would be appropriate:

As list entry under "Alternative names" I would say "Deutscher Schäferhund". In sentences, I would say "this is the Deutsche Schäferhund", "this is a Deutsche Schäferhund" etc. ("this is a Deutscher Schäferhund" sounds strange to me.) Also, I would write "this is a literal translation from the German 'Deutscher Schäferhund'", not "this is a literal translation from the German 'Deutsche Schäferhund'".

(BTW, I have checked the article's present version, it is in accordance with what I proposed above.)

--91.13.215.246 (talk) 22:53, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

What you wrote is correct. I'am german and they are called that way the correct name for the breed is Deutscher Schäferhund. --Inugami-bargho (talk) 13:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

i am german too and say Deutscher Schäferhund is correct in german. (also look at the link to the german language wikipedia an the article page) Elvis (talk) 12:16, 19 May 2008 (UTC)