Talk:Germanos Karavangelis

Untitled
I strongly request (and maybe I would do myself) a cleanup of this article for the following reasons:

1. QUOTE:

(He) was undoubtedly one of the main coordinators of the freedom of Macedonia from the Turks (end of the quote)

It is an absolute distortion of the historical facts.

It is a known fact and Karavangelis HIMSELF tells clearly and undoubtetly in his own autobiographical book "The Macedonian struggle"(I think firstly published in 1928) that he NEVER fought the Turkish authorities. Oncontrary (as he says in his OWN above mentioned book) he often gladly COLLABORATED with the Turkish authorities against their common enemy: the armed groups called "Komiti" organized by the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization for liberating Macedonia from the Turkish yoke (see: VMRO) during the years of the Greek Struggle for Macedonia

2. Also, the article is biased (in favor of the greek nationalist point of view).

QUOTE:

With great diplomacy and bravery (he was only 34 years old when made bishop)

Oncontrary, Karavangelis says openly in his own above mentioned book that: bribery, manipulation, assasinations, betrayal, Divide et impera etc. were among his offtenly used methods.

3. Another example of the biased (pro-greek nationalistic) views expressed by the author of the article is the following

QUOTE:

he organized militias out of determined Greek(s) and boosted the morale of the dejected Patriarchists.

Karavangelis in his own book says openly that recruiting ordinary bandits and criminals for his armed gangs was also a common practise (beside people who really beleived in his cause and who would join him volunatrilly or who would be manipulated to do so).

4. Also, the Greeks should finally decide what's the correct spelling of this person's name in english translitteration: Germanos or Yermanos, Karavangelis or Karavaggelis or Karavagelis, as all the versions circulatte around the internet, in books etc. and it confuses the readers and internet surfers looking for info.

I tried to be as unbiased as possible, I quoted only the book written by the person in question which can always be verified expecially by people interested in the subject, so in the name of objectivity I hope this will not be deleted.

--Vbb-sk-mk 01:25, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Update finished
I tried to be as unbiased as possible, I included what the person in question wrote in his own autobiography (memoirs) and I included a source which can be verified. --Vbb-sk-mk 04:27, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Bulgarian poet Ivan Vazov against Karavangelis
Владиката Каравангелис

Каравангелис*, пастирът Христови,

яви се весел при пашата пак:

- Паша ефенди! Днес комити нови

открих: готви тъмници и окови.

Бог нек закриля царя наши драг!

- Владико, аферим на теб и слава.

Слуга си верен на султана, брава!

II

Каравангелис, верният слуга

на падишаха, пак е при пашата:

- Ефенди, радост пълни ми душата:

комити други аз открих сега.

Против исляма дигаха раята!

- Фала и чест на тебе, баш кишиш**.

Султана много ще задоволиш!

III

Каравангелис, честният владика,

яви се пак и с тържествующ глас:

- Паша ефенди, радостен извика,

готви бесилки: трийсет йощ клетнйка,

душмани царски, днес подуших аз!

- Брилянтен орден в знак на благодарност

султанът готви зарад твойта вярност.

IV

Каравангелис пак се появи:

- Паша ефенди, веч съмненье няма:

комити с пушки крият се във храма.

Нек паднат тозчас техните глави

под славний ятаган на Дин-Исляма!

Кога излезе черний грък, пашата, блед,

плюна по него и пошушна: пис миллет***!

София, 8 януари 1904 г.

———————————————

- * Гръцки владика в Македония днес, прочут по мръсните си шпионства и предателства спрямо въстаниците.

- ** Главен духовник.

- *** Мръсен народ.

Written in Sofia on 8 January 1904. Source (in Bulgarian).

Jackanapes 17:25, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Were are the evidence about Karavangelis?
Please provide the information you mention about karavangelis! Were in his book he mention all that you say?Which page please and what are his exact words! I was unable to find any from the information you mention! I would like to see some clear references and not quotes from Lithoksoou book please! From were is the reference that "He is personally responsible[1] for various crimes[1] committed against the local population in Macedonia including, among other things his personal involement[1] in the planning and organization of the massacre in the village of Zagorichani (later renamed Vasilyas) executed by the greek armed groups on the 25th of March 1905." What are the sources that back up such a claim? (Seleukosa 23:39, 11 February 2007 (UTC) ) And again were exactly Karavangelis mentions that he organized the Greek guerilla forces from “Greek oficers, and then volunteers brought from Crete, Peloponnese and other parts of Greece, then various criminals(!!!!!) as well as few(notice the term “few”!) recruited locals such as the chieftain Vangel (Vangelis Strebreniotis) from the village of Strebreno (now Asprogia) and Kote Hristov (Kotas Hristos), a renegade from IMRO from the village of Rulya (later renamed by the Greek authorities as Kotas in his honor.” (Notice please the order of the troops!! First Greek officers, then volunteers from Greece but not Greek-Macedonians, then criminals and finally few locals!!!!) Provide references that suggest that this was the case! Please specify the exact page of the book were I can find the exact claim! Again I don’t want quotes from Lithoksoou book! I want quotes from the original book of Karavangelis! (Seleukosa 23:50, 11 February 2007 (UTC))


 * what kind of question is that Seleukosa? the information is provided by karavagelis himself.his book is available in every bookstore and library in greece, if you want to read it of course (seems you dont).like it or not he cooperated with the turkish army all the time,beside volunteers from southern greece he was recruiting criminals, albanians, turks and whatnot.indeed he mentions only few recruited locals,you have already listed their names (2-3 important persons - commanders).and worst of all he admits in his memoirs that he made a list of persons to be killed / spared in the massacre in the village of Zagorichani. he was personally responsible for that as he was involved in the organisation of that masacre. but who am i talking to anyway. wikipedia, what a joke. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nababati (talk • contribs) 03:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

Well if it so easy please gives me the exact page were Germanos karavangelis mentions the above? Can you give please the exact passage or quote in his words? In Which edition this appeared? In the Greek original or in a strange edition from Skopje? Were exactly does Germanos karavangelis says that he recruited criminals? Albanians, or Turks? Please provide the exact reference! Seleukosa 12:33, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

recent POV edits
Already it has been discused above. Do not post fakely "sourced material" Seleukosa 20:05, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Stop reventing and stop posting fake material. Germanos karavanglis no were in his book he mentions all the suposed information you have posted! It is realy interesting to see were he even claims that he is responsible for war crimes!!! Jesus!! (please try to use only one ID!!) Seleukosa 21:59, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I know its painful but those are the facts:

1. The so called Greek MACEDONIAN struggle was fought mainly by people born in Lesbos (Karavangelis), France (Pavlos Melas), Crete, Mani (Peloponesse), then Albanians, Turks and what not.

2. The movement did not originate from the local people in Macedonia, but was orchestrated from Greece (Mavrokordatos sent Karavangelis in the name of the Government of Greece).

3. The meaning of "nationality/ ethnicity" in Macedonia during the Ottoman rule almost completely differed from the today's standards. For further information see: Millet (Ottoman Empire).. For example: all the followers of the Greek Patriarchate were automatically counted as "Greeks" although they could be actually Slavs, Aromanians, Toska Albanians etc. Claiming jurisdiction on these populations and territories, the Greek state and Church invented the ridiculuous terms such as:

I wonder how then the Greeks claim that their language has a continuous history of nearly three thousand years???! lol (I also wonder why they didnt invent "Chinese-phones" so they could claim the Chinese people as part of the Greek nation too). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yeqry (talk • contribs) 17:18, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * slavophones - "they are greeks by ethnicity but slavic by language as a result of Slavic invasions"
 * vlachophones - "they are greek by ethnicity but were romanized as a result of the Roman invasions"
 * albanophones - "they are greeks by ethnicity but were Albanized by the Albanians"

This satanic figure ordered the killing of my grandfather's grandfather. He is a war criminal and a murderer from my point of view. That is why this article, the way it is written now, is strongly biased, OK? --79.126.214.178 20:05, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Stop pushing POV
Please stop pushing POV. I do know it is painful not to have your own history and to try to find one! Try to read further about Greek history and stop using many, many fake accounts! It really doesn't help! There are very interesting articles in Wikipedia about the Greeks, the Greek language the Demography of Greece and the Demography of Ottoman Occupied Macedonia. It is going to be really helpful for you to read something interesting about history! Seleukosa 00:13, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Seleukosa, I had the opportunity to check the mentioned book myself and I can confirm that the quotes are correct (despite the... well.. not so good english translation). As mentioned before, the book is a firsthand autobiographical source and its available in every bookstore or library in your country. I strongly reccomend that you verify it yourself. Brian ODonell 21:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes. And you wouldn't happen to be a sockpuppet of Guirorata/Greped/Dagolapnes would you?--NetProfit 23:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Original research
It's original research to use quotes to prove whether Karavangelis did or did not do something. You need a secondary source. The quotes by themselves have no place here; they belong in wikiquote.--NetProfit 21:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

(Cant agree more! We do see that this article is always reverted by shocpupets!!) Furthermore those quotes are not form Karavagelis book but from Lithoksoou book! Of course the quotes are ridiculsly translated (especially the term "Mitropolia"!!!!!!.) and they are out of context so that to show a specific POV. Nowhere from those ill translated quotes can we reach to the occlusions the fake accounts want us to! The second quote that is used to convince us that Germanos Karavangelis was organizing armed groups only from officers of the Greek army, Greek volunteers and Albanians!!!!! It is actually about a meeting of various armed groups in order to strength the bonds between them!! Even from the out of context quote we can see that the majority of those groups were mainly Macedonians Greeks! The supposed “various criminals” is based on the fact that Karavagelis has managed to make a controversial character such as Karalivanos, (who was an outlaw) to fight for his country! And that is a great success. In his book he always refers to Strebeniotis as Vangelis Strebeniotis! The Greek armed forces were never “regularly” backed by Ottoman forces. What Karavagelis did, was to use his status as an official of the Ottoman government (The bishops of the patriarchate were officials of the Ottoman government!) to have personal guard and also to guide the Ottoman forces not to retaliate against Macedonian Greek villages. And that can be seen from those ill translated quotes! The Ottoman forces participate in the conflict either attacking the Bulgarian forces or the Greek forces according their interests! Pavlos Melas was killed by the Ottoman forces! Nowhere from those fake quotes can we see that he used, “payed assassination”!!! As for the passage about his methods “manipulations and Divide et imperar, espionage and bribery” beside the fact that the quotes suggest otherwise all the above are common practices in a war!!! Nowhere in his book (or from those ill translated and out of context quotes) can we see that he organized crimes against the Macedonians Greeks or against the Bulgarians? All the incidents that are described are against armed forces and this can bee seen easily!

a) So all the supposed quotes are either ill translated or there are taken by the book of Dimitris Lithoksou who is a Slav-Macedonians historiographer highly biased and controversial!

b) Nowhere from those quotes we reach to the conclusions that the deleted passages aply! On the contrary the opposite conclusions apply

c) All the passages that are deleted, are POV, and they are original research based on the ill translated quotes! Therefore the text about Germanos Karavagelis is reverted in the original form! Every attempt to revert it in the previous POV way, it will be pure POV pushing, vandalism and posting of original research! Seleukosa 09:26, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Interesting
hmm, this is rather entertaining:
 * 1) now the greeks are suddenly denouncing the words of their own "hero"? well, he said what he said in his own memoirs, theres nothing we can do.
 * 2) Netprofit previously insisted that a "secondary source" must be used instead of an authobiographical book. But, after the article was reverted to a Greek-POV version, Netprofit suddenly stopped complaining :) Now suddenly that book is good enough to be used as a source? :) double standards?
 * 3) Netprofit protested against the previous version claiming that the article contains an "original research". However, from what you can see just above my comment, its actually Seleukosa that is making a sort of personal research on the matter :)
 * 4) At some point Seleukosa claims that the quotes are fake, then he/she complains that they are not authentic but they are taken from Lithoksou, and finally he/she changes his or her mind and admits that Karavangelis indeed said what he said, but "he meant something else"(?!) and therefore, now Seleukosa is trying to give us an interpretation of what Karavangelis "really wanted to say" and to tell us "what he really did" or "didnt do"(?!) Sele,  are you maybe an academic specialized on this particular subject? Or will you at least enlighten us, mortals with some neutral sources?
 * 5) Netprofit disputed the neutrality of the previous version, however the version that he prefers is also one-sided and non-neutral (shortly saying: its pro-Greek).
 * 6) Seems that everyone who disagrees with Seleukosas POV is risking to be labeled a sockpuppet, however, it seems to me that  Netprofit is actually Seleukosas sockpuppet or meatpuppet (but I will not even bother to prove that).Daveebamugz 00:57, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

stop pushing POV
Let me repeat so that the incredible amount of different ID's should understand the above arguments and stop reverting into POV!!!

a) All the quotes that are tried to be used as sources are taken from Lithoksou book not from the original text off Karavangelis! This is obvious from the problematic translation and the deletion of passages within passages!

b) Lithoksou (who is part of the Slav-Macedonian extreme historiography ) uses quotes from Karavangelis book out of context and ill translated. The most obvious example is the use of the term "Mitropolia" which is mentioned twice!!

c) Even if we do accept those quotes only as ill translated but original, the passages that use them as source are all POV and original research (to use a polite term)!! Try to read what I have written above! Either case the article is remaining as it was written originally by user kapnisma!

d) Were exactly are the user pages of users Daveebamugz/Guirorata/ Greped/Dagolapnes/Yeqry ??? I am realy interesting to know!!!! Seleukosa 09:26, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Again this article is under vandalism attacks! Simply check the suneries at the edit history! Seleukosa 18:46, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Several issues
This artcle has several issues:


 * 1) Its one-sided and non-neutral (represents only the official Greek point of view)
 * 2) There is only one source, his authobiography (represents the perspective of the author only)
 * 3) Also the factual accuracy of some of the statements is dubious —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dzole (talk • contribs) 19:25, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

The article is not at all one sided but it is extremely neutral. No extreme points of view are presented and the article is nearly in stab condition. The article doesn’t even represent the point of view of Karavangelis since his actions are only outlined and they are not judged positively in any way. The neutrality dispute tag is removed since the neutrality of this article has only been challenged by non existing accounts or by views based on extreme Slav-Macedonian historiography. (Unfortunately facts and neutrality is considered by some as one sided!) Seleukosa 14:13, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

This article actually needs to expand and add sources. Seleukosa 14:25, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

exactly, it needs proper sourcing. plus I disagree that its "extremely neutral", its one sided and I dispute its factual accuracy at some points. An authobiography (self-biography) can be useful however it can be biased. for all these reasons I will add valid appropriate tags. please dont remove them until a solution is found. And my account is not "non-existing" (whatever that means). --Dzole 00:58, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The article is not based on the authobigraphy of Germanos karavangelis. That's why it is extremely neutral. As I said above the article doesn’t even represent the point of view of Karavangelis since his actions are only outlined and they are not judged positively in any way. Further more there isnt any dispute. Not providing a source but only disagreeing with the article as it is, can not be considered a dispute! Since all the other editors of this article hasn’t got a problem I don’t see were is any dispute?? As we don’t use extreme Greek historiography that considers Germanos Karavangelis a “hero who stopped the blood thirsty Bulgarians for killing the Greek-Macedonians” we do expect the extreme Bulgarian/Slav-Macedonian historiography to stay out from this article. Again I repeat that the article is almost stub and needs expansion. {Certainly not based in extreme Slav-Macedonian historiography (Lithiksoou included!) if this is probably what you have in mind?.} To this far this article has been challenged by anonymous users or non-existing accounts. (User Dzole is not included in the above statement!) So I am removing the tags as they are only representing POV. If you have anything to contribute stated so in the talk page. By not providing any information and only adding tags is not contribution. Especially when you tag only articles regarding Greek-Macedonia. Seleukosa 14:53, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

wrong. actually when i first arrived here I was concentrated on music articles. little by little I explored around and I noticed hunderds of articles (like this one for instance) remaining without any or without sufficient sourcing which is a real damage to wikipedias credibility. everyone write whatever he/she wants thats not the way to make an encyclopedia but political pamphlets. I will return my valid tags: verification (per WP:V official policy) and maybe NPOV (the latter regarding my own personal disputation of the article). these are valid instruments in this community so dont remove them. --Dzole 18:56, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Removing an irrelevant picture
What is the reason for keep adding a picture? Germanos Karavangelis was Bishop of Kastoria and as a bishop he was official of the Ottoman Empire. There are probably many pictures of him with other Ottoman officials. What is that picture suppose to prove beside the fact that he was living in the Ottoman Empire? The constant repapering of this picture is simple POV pushing. We have faced the same problem in the previous year with similar edits. Seleukosa (talk) 14:39, 23 November 2008 (UTC)


 * It's supposed to prove that "look, he was a filthy Turkish collaborator, lynch him". That's my issue with it. · ΚΕΚΡΩΨ · 14:59, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * He was "a filthy Turkish collaborator" by his words. I added some info about his activity during the Ilinden-Preobrajenie Uprising and about his role of massacreas in Zeleniche and Zagorichani during the Struggle for Macedonia. Подпоручикъ (talk) 21:16, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Stop retreaving the article like PC bot, Germanos Karavangelis himself said he cooperated with turks against bulgarians. That can be seen not only in Brailsford`s article, but in personal memoars of Karavangelis. You delete the info, because of your personal willing! Подпоручикъ (talk) 22:36, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You messed up the article just to add your POV, using a primary source. What you need is a secondary source lending weight to the statement or whatever facts you want to highlight in this biographical article, otherwise it's pure OR. --Zakronian (talk) 18:56, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

And let me help you with some neutral sources, if you really care about anything else except portaying Karavangelis as a collaborator of the Turks and Bulgarian genocide mastermind.

http://books.google.com/books?id=SB1OrH8iZtcC&pg=PA27&dq=Germanos+Karavangelis+ilinden&lr= http://books.google.com/books?id=iuo8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA95&dq=Germanos+Karavangelis+ilinden&lr=#PPA95,M1 http://scholar.google.gr/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=Germanos+Karavangelis+&btnG=Search

I really can't see how these details are notable enough, let alone to consist half of this article, most of them linked with a primary source and the rest with a Bulgarian perspective one (obvious interest to focus on certain things). Is there any meaning at all to mention that he acted in the same manner as his opponents during the struggle of nationalisms in the region ? One thing that distiguishes him to some degree is that he managed to use the Turks in favor of his cause on certain occasions, but even that would require a balanced expansion to worth a sentence.--Zakronian (talk) 21:06, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

What in this picture is irrelevant? This is the typical amploa from this man. Jingby (talk)

Excuse me, Greek friends!
He was a highly controvercial person, but he plaied his cards exellent. Do not delete the facts about his life. He was not a God's man. The games with the Turks a his anti-Bulgarian cruelity were notorious. Jingby (talk) 12:17, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

While were neutral referenced texts remeoved? Jingby (talk) 08:31, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

The Ottoman Kaimakam, who governed the Sandjak of Kastoria was awed by and willing to accept policy direction from Karavangelis. The politically shrewd Metropolitan influenced the Kaimakam to take actions that were helpful to the success of Greek andartes over their enemies, the Bulgarian comitadjides. During the crushing of Ilinden–Preobrazhenie Uprising Karavangelis is witness of burning of Bulgarian villages of Blatza, Chereshnitza and Visheni. He insisted of killing most active Bulgarians there. Together with band of Vangelis Strebreniotis, who supported the Turks in defense of Klisura against the IMRO fighters, he accompanied the Turkish army offering people from burned villages to join the Patriarchate of Constantinople. In 1903 year Karavangelis payd 50 liras to Konstantinos Christou after he killed IMARO a leader Lazar Poptraykov and hang the photo of him behead in his study office. Germanos Karavangelis, carrying a gun, and accompanied by a band of armed Cretans, followed the Turkish troops round the Bulgarian villages, threatening the population with worse disasters if they persisted in their rebelliousness, and promising them protection if they would renounce the Bulgarian Exarchate and recognize the Greek Patriarchate. Karavangelis is main organizer for massacreas in villages of Zeleniche and Zagorichani. The fate of the village Zagorichani, today Vasiliada in the Kastoria district is well known and particularly tragic. On 25 March 1905 Zagorichani was surrounded and attacked at dawn by an armed band of 300 men under the command of Vardas. 79 old and young villagers were executed by Greek andartes at nighttime and the village was set ablaze. The European press reported the event and it was made public that Germanos Karavangelis instigated the massacre. He hailed the massacre as a great victory. The attack upon Zagorichani was committed with the complicity of the Ottoman authorities. In the presence of the British journalist H. N. Brailsford he declareid that: ''the alliance with the Turks is in a short time. Will become the great day when the Hellenism will claim own property rights. But it’s necessesary to be crush the Bulgarians first''. Brailsford also added about his meeting with Karavangelis:
 * Mate, if you can't understand what's the problem with your version then i'm not sure i can help you, really ! Mentioning the Bulgarian POV in one sentence might be appropriate, but all that stuff there was just a POV advocacy. Think of the historical context and you might be able to understand why almost no one outside the Bulgarian nation knows this man for the facts you exposed here and why you can't find a non-Bulgarian secondary source to establish their noteworthyness.--Δρακόλακκος (talk) 08:15, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh dear. For years now, as long as I can remember, these passages have been coming and going. Always based near-literally on tendentious sources of partisan patriotic historiography. What strikes me is that no editor has ever, in all these years, made the slightest attempt at covering the historical facts in question in a way that even so much as pretends to maintain a tone of neutrality. All everybody seems ever to be interested in is to use material as a means to either blacken or glorify this person's memory. Historical facts are being perceived as interesting by editors only under the perspective that they can be evaluated as positive or negative under the ideological premises of their various patriotic traditions. This is so very boring. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:44, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Unless you're suggesting someone should make a summary of this narrative based on the sources Jinjiby used, that coverage reguires finding an impartial source first. I've spend some time checking English bibliography available in googlebooks and i've not found anything on the reported incidents, not much info about the man in general. His Ottoman connections can be inserted somehow i guess. I've no idea how the rest could be summarized without commiting OR. --Δρακόλακκος (talk) 01:14, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

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