Talk:Germany–India relations

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Note to bystanders and non-constructive critics
Hi Wikipedian contributors, This article page just as any other wikipedia article is always the reflection of a 'perspective' and it can only be improved through understanding & action taken on the feed-back received. By being 'bold' in creating a Wikipedia article, there are risks. However, in view of the time and effort that goes into reading, sorting, compiling, publishing the text that goes into each article page it is necessary to prioritize on some things more than others (and returning to the article later to improve/correct/append the text). This is IMHO what I have tried to do. Hopefully others can weigh-in with active involvement in compiling/contributing text to improve the article to backup their positive criticisms as opposed to standing on the sidelines and launching into obstructions. 91.182.193.128 (talk) 14:02, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

WP:SYN
the following i have removed from lead it is clear case of wp:Syn, please discuss before edit warring Shrikanthv (talk) 07:20, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

The relationship with suffers from sustained anti-Indian sentiment in Germany. 68% of Germans expressed a negative view of India according to the 2014 BBC World Service Country Rating Poll, which saw Germany lead global anti-Indian feelings and surpassing even Pakistan where only 58% held anti-India views.

The 2007 Mügeln mob attack on Indians and the 2015 Leipzig University internship controversy has clouded the predominantly commercial-oriented relationship between the two countries.


 * comment : the second statment is clear synthesis as no sources have put across that these two particular insidences have caused relation problem, seems to me clear synthesis and mixing up two not related insident to put forward a view. also regarding research and polls by BBC, my god how did we arrive did we arrive which percentage signifies "suffering" and which percentage signifies " good" again clear syn Shrikanthv (talk) 07:20, 6 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for clearly explaining your text deletion on the talk page so that your concerns can be addressed accordingly. If you have a suggestion for a revised text, then please make it here.
 * 10:28, 6 October 2015 (UTC)~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.240.175.173 (talk)
 * The suggestion is to remove this completely while it is amounting to synthesis Shrikanthv (talk) 12:28, 7 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Regarding the revised text:

According to the 2014 BBC World Service Country Rating Poll which measures the influence and perceptions of countries across the world, Germans lead the list with 68% expressing a negative view of India, surpassing Pakistan where 58% held anti-India views.
 * I have taken steps to address your concerns and have ensured that the sentence only includes the appropriately sourced and trust-worthy statistical data alongside the significant comparative. There is no data interpretation. The rewritten text addresses your concerns and goes even further by totally cutting out references to the 2 incidents.
 * Just censoring the sentence is not constructive IMHO.
 * 81.240.175.173 (talk) 15:25, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

(Removed the small font formatting for readability in thread)

As asked by 81.240.175.173, I'm evaluating this series of edits. The first thing I want to say is that we all remember to WP:AGF - Shrikanthv please read WP:IPHUMAN as the editor is clearly here to improve the article in a constructive manner, given the volume of his well sourced edits to this article. There's no evidence that he would have started an WP:EDITWAR at all - please don't accuse others like that without providing evidence.

From what I've read here there's only one source in the whole paragraph. The line  should most certainly be removed if it was not sourced (see WP:CHALLENGE, likely to be challenged), that's undeniable. But there's only one source in the former paragraph here, whereas WP:SYN specifically talks about combining material from multiple sources to make a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Was there two sources to synthesise a conclusion here from? Am I missing something? The source is reliable enough for the statement, I've checked it. If there is only one source here then WP:SYN is entirely irrelevant. Tell me if I'm missing something here. Otherwise it should be clear, keep the first paragraph and remove the second paragraph if there's no source to support it. ~  Nott Nott  talk &#124;contrib 17:10, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Removal of sentence about "widespread discrimination"
I would like to remove the sentence: "Discrimination against minority groups and persons of color is widespread in Germany." My reasons being:


 * 1) Three of the four sources cited refer to just one single incident. Notwithstanding the obvious issue that generalising is completely uncalled for based on one incident, the incident didn't even refer to Indians being a minority group nor to Indians being discriminated against based on their color.
 * 2) The fourth is rather irrelevant; the problem of students leaving the country isn't shown to be because of discrimination.
 * 3) This reason isn't very encyclopaedic, but here it is: One need only visit Europe and Germany to know that there is no widespread discrimination against anyone anywhere in Europe. Certainly, institutional and systemic racism still exists to a certain extent, but most definitely not on a large scale. The line makes it seem as if we're living in the midst of a bloody civil war. 79.169.43.120 (talk) 20:51, 6 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi, the sentence has been rephrased by removing "is widespread" and using a neutral form by saying "is present". I also reviewed the references and updated them.81.240.175.173 (talk) 16:03, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Policy determinants in Indo-German relations
Reinstated text in this sub-section as these are the determinants that come into play in any bilateral or multilateral in International Relations. Please refer to bilateral/multilateral relations pages. 00:39, 27 November 2015 (UTC)~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.136.201.61 (talk)

Cutting material that fails COATRACK, SYNTHESIS and NPOV
I cut a substantial amount of material from this article that was problematic (see this diff). Because it's been readded, I want to go through and make clear why each section was removed (even if was mostly sourced). Most of this text does not refer to German-Indian relations, but to Germany or India as individual countries. Any claim of relevance to an article Germany–India relations is inappropriate synthesis:


 * The visit occurred at a time of negative public perception of Germany, brand "Made in Germany" and German corporate ethics - all of whom became tarnished by the rapid succession of highly visible public diplomacy disasters: abrasive rhetoric from Eurogroup creditors adjoined with revelations of ill-temper from German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble (often lampooned as the archetypical "ugly German"      ) during negotiations on austerity measures for EU member-states affected by the sovereign debt crisis;  Angela Merkel's unilateral announcements during the European refugee crisis; and industrial fraud revealed through the Volkswagen diesel emissions test violations scandal.     German discourse during the Greek sovereign debt default crisis and mass exodus inflow crisis caused alarm in Europe and raised concerns of 'fair-play' by a dominant Germany whose unilateral announcements and policies appeared to discard consensual decision-taking and collective expectations.      In October 2015, several public opinion polls conducted in Germany show sinking support for Angela Merkel.

Nothing in this paragraph relates to India. It's just a long list of complaints about Germany politics (mostly its relations with Greece). Some of this might be relevant to Germany–Greece relations, but none of it has anything to do with Germany–India relations, and it's just using the topic as a coatrack to complain about Germany. (Also, the reference to Wolfgang Schäuble as an "ugly German" is inappropriate to an article that is not about him, and probably not WP:NPOV/WP:BLP compliant)


 * The outlook of opportunities and challenges facing Germany and India have changed significantly over the last decade amidst the ongoing global geopolitical reordering.

This is just a big pile of articles about the world economy, most of which have no bearing on Germany or India. Some of the citations do not verify what the sentence – the release of an academic edition of Mein Kampf has nothing to do with any "global reordering". None of it says anything about German-Indian relations.


 * The challenge for the Government of India is to sustain growth of the Indian economy ($2,066tn with 7.4% GDP growth in 2014, against a minimum requirement of 6.5% to balance the Indian Budget 2015-16) in order to meet domestic socio-economic expectations and deliver on electoral promises made by India's ruling NDA coalition government. In September 2015, an opinion survey conducted by Pew Research Center revealed that support for Narendra Modi in India stood at 87%.

What do internal Indian politics have to do with German-Indian relations?


 * Socio-economic difficulties in Europe due to high levels of youth unemployment and de-industrialisation have wide-ranging implications for peace and stability in Germany.    German government's ability to implement fiscal and social policies to reinvigorate the German economy ($3,852tn with 1.5% GDP growth in 2014) have narrowed due to the persistence of weak economic growth in the EuroZone and shrinking global demand for German products.    German companies are looking to develop new market opportunities and require cheap qualified labour to ensure that German goods and services remain competitive in export markets.   Germany's aggressive assertion of influence within the Europe Union has set-off alarm-bells all over Europe prompted an outright rejection of German diktat in Southern and Eastern European countries,  given rise to an ominous unease about a dominant Germany in UK and France,   and revived memories of Germany's Nazi-era legacy which remain unforgotten. Germany's Der Speigel magazine (in its issue titled "The German Übermacht" dated March 21, 2015) drew attention to the fast spreading resentment of Germany all over Europe. In October 2015, opinion polls in Germany placed Angela Merkel's approval rating at 54%.


 * Europe-wide acceptance of Germany's leadership role of the European Union hangs in the balance after widespread dismay at the rigid stance on austerity adopted by the German government and perceptions that the harsh conditions which Germany sought to impose upon Greece during the Greek sovereign debt crisis were selfish and overbearingly punitive.      Prominent academics objected to the practicality of the German-backed austerity package proposed for Greece, while political observers drew attention to collective amnesia in Germany regarding the reconstruction of Germany through the Marshall Plan and massive debt forgiveness accorded to Germany by Allied countries.     Patrick Minford, professor of economics at Cardiff University pointedly observed the destructive nature of German economic policies which result in massive trade surpluses for Germany while pauperising weaker EuroZone countries: "unhealthy for Germany to run very large trade surpluses. They’re sabotaging the rest of Europe." Jacob Soll, professor of history and accounting at the University of Southern California, summarized the biased anti-Greek sentiment amongst academics in Germany: "Germans were honest dupes and the Greeks corrupt, unreliable and incompetent." Hectoring by Germany on the question of debt repayment by Greece drew criticism from French economist Thomas Piketty: “When I hear the Germans say that they maintain a very moral stance about debt and strongly believe that debts must be repaid, then I think: What a huge joke!” (...) “Germany is the country that has never repaid its debts. It has no standing to lecture other nations.”

What do internal German and EU politics have to do with German-Indian relations?


 * Forceful portrayal of Germany as the normative model for honesty, efficiency and ethics (relayed incessantly by German officials, mass media and private citizens) came undone following revelations of fraud at a global level on an industrial scale by Volkswagen.        Time Magazine termed the actions of Volkswagen as "superbly engineered deception, with 11 million VW diesel cars fitted with special software that enabled them to cheat on emissions tests.(...) German industry was supposed to be above this sort of thing–or at least too smart to get caught." In recent years, several prominent German politicians have been forced to resign after revelations of plagiarism in their PhD thesis: former defence minister Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg,  former education minister Annette Schavan as well as Silvana Koch-Mehrin  and Jorgo Chatzimarkakis who were both Ministers of the European Parliament from Germany.  Currently, German Defence Minister Ursula von der Leyen is facing enquiry into allegations of doctoral thesis plagiarism.

Veering into nonsense now. German politicians having been discovered to have cheated on their PhDs has as much relevance as the Vyapam scam does to this article: none. Nothing here references German-Indian relations.


 * In March 2015, a Europe-wide study into sexual abuse - conducted by the Vienna-based Fundamental Rights Agency (FRA) with sponsorship from the European Commission - showed Germany above the EU average with 35% having suffered sexual abuse. According to the report, one in three women in the Europe Union has been a victim of sexual abuse. Another survey conducted in Germany by the German government's Anti-Discrimination Agency shows that "more than half of all female employees have experienced or witnessed sexual harassment in the workplace. One in five women have been touched against their will by a colleague."

Again, nothing to do with German-Indian relations (and it's strange to single out Germany here - sexual harassment is a problem in most if not all countries, including India)


 * Discrimination against minority groups and persons of color is present in Germany.          Germany has a history of xenophobia which continues to persist to the present day.


 * In October 2015, the Council of Europe voiced concern about mounting violence against minorities in Germany. There have been several xenophobic and racist attacks on persons of color in Germany, including Indians.    Compared to 2014, xenophobic attacks  and criminal offences  committed against refugee shelters in Germany has more than doubled in 2015 to 437  while attacks on homes of migrants almost tripled in 2015 to close to 500.


 * German public opinion is sharply divided on the 2015 European migrant crisis   and confused by contradictory policies announced by Angela Merkel.  Alongside those who hailed Angela Merkel's decision to allow refugees into Germany as founded on morality, dissenting voices pointed to the German Chancellor's history of unemotional decision-making and reputation of lacking empathy         and observed that Angela Merkel's exceptional largesse was a calculated response to Germany's demographic crisis.       On 1 October 2015, opinion polls in Germany showed that support for Chancellor Angela Merkel was dropping rapidly, had sunk to a 4-year low  and that "48 percent of Germans were dissatisfied with the government's handling of the migration crisis, as against 41 percent who support Merkel's response".   German government needs immigrants in order to rebalance Germany's lopsided demographics. At present, Germany's population is not only shrinking but now predominantly consists of ageing baby boomers.

Something here might be relevant, if it can be shown how racism towards Indians affects German-Indian relations. This however is a mixture of references many of which having nothing to do with India (many about Syrian war refugees).


 * Fundamental differences regarding the future of the European Union has resulted in political power-play between France, Germany & UK becoming the new normal.        German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble opined: "There is no German dominance. Germany is in a good position economically, that is undeniable. But in contrast to France and Great Britain, Germany is not a member of the United Nations Security Council. For that reason alone, you cannot talk about being in a position of political supremacy. Still, the balance in Europe has shifted since the fall of the Iron Curtain." European citizens are increasingly critical of Germany's propensity to arm-twist weaker nations and impose it's vision for Europe.  German stranglehold on political decision-making by European Union institutions has become a liability as levels of distrust of Brussels have risen to record levels among European citizens.   Traditional political consensus regarding the European Union faces uncertain electoral destinies in both France (2017 presidential elections) and UK (EU referendum) with each outcome bearing the potential for catastrophic socio-economic dislocation.

Not even one mention of India in this paragraph.


 * On 7 October 2015, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President François Hollande made a rare joint address at the European Parliament to recognise the seriousness of the ongoing socio-political turmoil within Europe and warned that the European Union was on the verge of breakdown. Francois Hollande cautioned European member-states to show solidarity in jointly solving common problems both within Europe and in its immediate neighbourhood, failing which “end of Europe” and “total war” could become inevitable. Angela Merkel urged European lawmakers not to “succumb to the temptation of falling back into acting in nationalistic terms”. Francois Hollande laid out the stark choice that faced British voters through the Brexit referendum: "There is no other way. It's a horrible path, but it's a logical path. Leave Europe, leave Schengen and leave democracy.(...) Do you really want to participate in a common state? That's the question."  It had been 26 years since the leaders of France and Germany jointly addressed the European Parliament: Francois Mitterrand and Helmut Kohl made a joint appeal for solidarity just weeks after the fall of the Berlin Wall.

Again, nothing to do with India. The perceptions section is very inappropriately focused on single events, and on the west as a whole rather than German-Indian relations in particular. I'm going to make another effort at cleaning up the article, now I've explained why I cut what I did. Smurrayinchester 17:31, 27 November 2015 (UTC)


 * @Smurrayinchester: I respect that you have a POV. The idea is to have an article on which there is consensus. Indeed, on this article text content can be rewritten/deleted/improved/expanded as in all articles.
 * Here is my perspective on your NPOV allegations: I took exception to your deletions of sourced content without any reasonable justification/discussion on the talk page. Now that you have done that and only thereafter redacted the text, I have removed the warning tags that were included on the article and which continued to remain even after the allegedly NPOV sourced text was removed.
 * In my opinion the major portion of the sourced text (which you have removed) is justified in its inclusion because the internal politics, economic situation and multilateral relations are all factors/determinants that influence/contribute to decision making in International Relations between countries. That is why they appeared under the sub-section called "Policy determinants in Indo-German relations". I recommend that you familiarise yourself with International relations theory - which explains how Hard power and Soft power determinants shape International relations - so that you will better appreciate the reasons on why/how background factors directly and indirectly determine the present/future course in all bilateral/multilateral relationships.
 * How do you propose that the International Relations determinants of India-Germany ties be dealt ? What constructive suggestions can you propose ? 81.240.171.145 07:16, 29 November 2015 (UTC)~

This POV article should be renamed in Indian-German relations
The entirety of this article is so focused on a perceived anti-Indian sentiment in Germany, that it is not at all about Germany. It's full of original content, using "sources" that are actually links emphasizing opinions that are not quoted from any source or taken from outside this article (as in the analysis of Germany's defense in South Asia: "Manpower limitations and armament restrictions imposed upon Germany through the 1990 Treaty on the Final Settlement with Respect to Germany[82] prevent it from developing expeditionary forces and blue-water assets." - The supposed footnote [82] looks like it is linking to a source of this statement, while it's actually a link to the text of the Treaty.)

It's hardly about any factual Indian and German external affairs, but an unscientific and biased sum-up about how the authors perceive Germany.

The obvious and contionous NPOV violations of the text present it as an Indian author's perceived yiew of Germany's supposed relations towards India. So it's hardly about "German-Indian relations" at all. --77.4.199.53 (talk) 23:42, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

First things first: The Swastika?
"India and Germany had indirect contact during ancient times, resulting more visibly in Nazi Germany's use of the swastika in its flag.[1]"

Does a serious article about intercultural and diplomatic history have to start with this wildly inappropriate one sentence-paragraph? Most of Europeans and especially Central Europeans will not find this to be acceptable as neutral, sensitive or proper at any level. This jaw-dropping statement alone is lacking quality at such a ridiculous level, I cannot even decide where to start tearing apart the irony of starting this whole article's body with this. --77.4.199.53 (talk) 22:58, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

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