Talk:Germany/Archive 9

Error in the first part
could someone please edit the part where it says "...third largest economy as well as third largest exporter." In fact, Germany is the largest exporter these days. thanx.

(Protected?) Vandalism in the part "Division and Reunification
"Hitler is a W A N K E R"

How rich was east Germany compared to West Germany?
Even with the handicap of Germany technology and machines being stolen for the West and the exodus of intelligent people from East to West.

-G


 * Can't give any specfic references, but East Germany was considered one of the most well-off communist states before the fall of the wall.... MadMaxDog 13:34, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Merge from article 'West Germany'
This article should include the current West Germany article. This is because at one time, there were two articles: West Germany, and East Germany. Neither of these had the correct name of the country in the title, and the West Germany article was renamed, and expanded; later the East Germany article was also renamed.

It also needs to be remembered that the West German state (Bundesrepublik Deutschland) absorbed the East German state, under the relevant section of the Grundgesetz, so the German state continued in existence, right to the present day. Please ask if you want me to explain this a bit further.(RM21 20:59, 25 June 2006 (UTC))


 * In the light of the comment further below on the talkpage asking for sections to be put into subarticles and just summarized due to the length of this article, I think it ain't a good idea. Agathoclea 23:02, 25 June 2006 (UTC)


 * (after conflict with below) I agree. Also a country is a geography as well as an organisation. While one organisation was perhaps absorbed into the other, the geographies of East- and West-Germany merged into Germany. gidonb 00:55, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. Have moved the merge tag to History of Germany since 1945. (RM21 00:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC))

If you look at Germany's history as a whole, over several centuries and milleniums... West Germany is a very short period. The separate article could be deleted, and the few decades it lasted could be kept in the main Germany article. mmunger 00:59, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Right, but to which article should it belong?? As pointed out, the Germany article is getting v. big indeed now. By contrast, the History of Germany since 1945 article does neatly contain the period of, and the references to West Germany; it mostly relates to the politics and history of that period, anyway, so a move there may make more sense. Any mention in the main article could be made in passing. (RM21 01:22, 26 June 2006 (UTC))


 * I agree with you using History of Germany since 1945. mmunger 15:07, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Leave the articles alone ... East Germany is a historical article, while the current republic is what was limited to West Germany. Be in mind there's regionalism in Germany for each one of the 15 landers or states. Germany has a long history of multiple kingdoms, principalities and regional states. Since 1871, Germany was a singular national entity, except for the years of 1949-1990 when it was two political states. No matter how separate they were for awhile, both peoples called themselves Germans and their country had the title "Germany". The differences of eastern provinces remain in a smaller scale, compared to 15 years ago. The new life, democracy and capitalism has remodeled the east as compatible to the west. Many westerners say they have regional differences and identities in Bavaria, the largest state has strong regionalism unlike of the Rheinland and Lower Saxony. --Mike D 26 22:46, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Table Alignment
I noticed the infobox along the right-hand-side displays rather oddly in Opera 8.5 at 1024x768- the map image overlaps the edge of the table to the right, and some of the text also extends over the boundary of the infobox...any ideas? - EvocativeIntrigue TALK 11:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Article is far too long
More of the information in the sections need to be summarized in their sub-articles. —Centrx→talk &bull; 03:17, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I suggest putting Wikipedia links to parts such as education and deleting the whole of their content in the Germany article in favor of that link. The main focus of the Germany article should be about basics such as history, geography and general facts. Anything that goes deeper should be linked as a separate article. All such topics that already have full articles should be nothing but links. mmunger 00:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd second that. That's usually what most 'visitors' to the page would want. (RM21 00:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC))


 * Yes, please. The article should be written in summary style, and most of the detail should be in subarticles. The History section of this article is ridiculous. See also the failed Featured Article nomination. Kusma (討論) 02:20, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Alright. I am digging in and doing some work. If I did not follow up with anything yet, I am still editing. Please wait until you find an update here from me before doing anything else. I will summarize plenty of things. mmunger 03:08, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * So it is done. I summarized many parts such as education, transport, climate, economy, religion, social issues, knowing that the content removed was either in their respective main articles or simply not relevant to an encyclopedia article about the country. I deliberatly chose not to cut anything from the History part. I believe it is too important. mmunger 03:56, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Could someone take a look at the History and Economy sections? I cannot get myself to edit them to make them shorter. Both topics fascinate me, and I have a hard time summarizing. After that, I think we should think about removing the "needs to be cleaned up" tag and resubmit the article for the featured content. mmunger 02:34, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I did my best with the two sections. I think some of the history sections are still too long, but it's getting more and more difficult to remove information as everything seems important. In any case, I think this might be enough. TSO1D 16:12, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The current length of the Germany article don't take 10 minutes to read, so it has been shortened by now or this is my opinion. Create new links on the history of Germany and each one of its' historic periods (Holy Roman Empire before 1871, the First German Empire/Prussia 1871-18, and the Weimar Republic era 1919-33). For more economic analysis, maybe a link to a new Germany economy article isn't a bad idea. Many have wrote on the striking contrasts of local economics for the former Communist East with the West, despite it's been 15 years after reunification. I believe those differences in eastern provinces isn't heavy now and Berlin as an united city enjoys relative prosperity on both sides of the former wall divided east and west. Of course, check out the Berlin city article for more information on that city, enjoys a new title as the symbol of German, European and world unity. --Mike D 26 22:51, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Please put the rankings into a separate page, raw numbers don't say that much about a country and its society if one exaggerates it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.58.58.206 (talk • contribs) 20:45, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Demographics
Not well written: Germans are not entirely homogenous, but also descendants of Celts, Romans and Slavs. The Southern states have originated from various Celtic tribes and leftover traits of Roman legions. The Eastern states shared a genetic link with the Slavs: the Sorbians and Wends. They make up the main visible ethnic minority in Germany, because of efforts to preserve the language and customs of this small community.

Germany appears uniform in terms of national culture as the article claims, unless you count the polyglot diversity of immigrant groups arrived in the late 20th century like Angolans, Vietnamese, Argentines and Moroccans. The article fails to state a total assimilation of European gastarbeiters (guestworkers) in one or two generations, except it's been a slower process for Turkish and Arabic immigrants.

The 250,000 Germans of East European origin managed to adapt in Germany, because most of them share a common background despite how many centuries the Germans of Russia, the Ukraine and Kazakhstan lived apart from their ancestral land. There had been millions of Germans relocated after World War II from present-day Poland and the Czech Republic, while the Soviets annexed ex-German East Prussia in 1945 remains as Russia.

More immigrants live in urban centers in western states to a point the lander governments has new registry forms to include questions on how much they know the laws and folkways of their host country. The former East had less immigrants when the communists prefered to hire more native-born Germans and on occassion those from Cuba, Mozambique, north Korea and the old Soviet bloc when labor shortages took place.

The German people aren't all blonde or blue-eyed or pale white as what some Americans believed. Anyone who traveled south and farther east in Germany will discover the provincial/regional histories resulted in different genetic combinations ("Alpine" or "Baltic" sub-groups). Some Germans in northern and western states has relatives in Denmark, France and the Netherlands, where repeated boundary changes took place.

In the new century, there's a possibility of African, Asiatic and other non-European elements may merge in Germany, unless assimilation of foreign-born Germans (i.e. Somalis, Pakistanis and the Turks) remains slow as it was. The German government has liberal immigration policies, but imposed strict regulations in the 1990's from overwhelming the already shrinking and aging population, as Germany admittedly needs a large wave of immigration. --Mike D 26 23:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Dont forget Lebensborn and kidnapped polish children during ww2. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nelmal (talk • contribs) 18:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * That's an irrelevant detail.217.85.87.5 23:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Plug in section "Energy Policy"
The sentence "One such company is SolarWorld, developer and manufactuer of solar cells." in the section "Energy Policy" doesn't seem necessary to me. It includes far too detailed information for a summary article and looks like surreptitious advertising. I would suggest to delete that sentence. 84.154.170.230 20:44, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. TSO1D 20:56, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Moreover, the numbers for wind power are completely bogus. Saying that 18000MW (a measument of power) were produced in a year (commonly said of *work*) is neither correct nor wrong, but just nonsensical. Quickly finding reliable numbers is a bit difficult, though... 88.73.200.150 21:27, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Die Grüne Welle
Am I still right in thinking that the German road system still uses the Green Wave for traffic signalling? For those not in the know, the Green Wave is a method of controlling traffic which means that if you travel at the speed displayed on the "ampel", or traffic lights, you will never encounter a red light. Can anyone fill me in as to whether this has changed or is no longer in use, since it could be useful to add to the section on transport if it is still in existance. Thor Malmjursson 08:43, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Display of the "correct" speed at traffic lights exists, but is not very common. It is used by some cities, not by "the German road system". Also, it is in my opinion a rather too minor detail to be added to this overview article. Kusma (討論) 09:16, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It is in use in many places, though synchronized traffic lights are by no means unique to Germany, and a lot of German traffic lights are annoyingly non-synchronized for no good reason. --ProhibitOnions ... cant find the tilde on the Norwegian keyboard... - ProhibitOnions 09:22, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * To elaborate on this, traffic lights are very commonly synchronized, but the display of the correct speed is not so common. Kusma (討論) 09:28, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * "Die Grüne Welle" (synchronized traffic lights with speed display) was the system employed in East Germany. Afaict is was completely phased out after 1990 and replaced with more-or-less synchronized traffic lights. 88.73.250.161 09:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It was also used prior to 1990 AFAIR. What was an East-Invention though was the "Grüner Pfeil". Saying that, I believe some US-States have had a similar rule. Agathoclea 09:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Better Map Needed
Is there not a better Map for the Article Picture? LCpl 22:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Why does the map show the European Union with Germany highlighted? Shouldn't it be just a map of Germany? --69.117.179.71 04:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The map in the country info box always shows where the country is - though this map isn't quite following the standard seen in other articles. Lars T. 14:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

dialects
In the article it is said that there are special dialects in saxony, bavaria an around Stuttgart differing from low german. This is correct but there are dialects all over the country. If you are a very expert you can see differences between singular villages. I`m german and I live in the Rhinearea (means: neither in low german regions nor in Saxony, Bavaria or Stuttgart) and I can not understand elder village people talking to their family members. So I think the article should be changed: there are dialects all over Germany and you can`t say there are special strange ones in the named areas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.127.43.226 (talk • contribs) 17:51, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

History
The characterization of the Thirty Years' War as an "inter-German" conflict doesn't hit the point, because this war has been also an international conflict by massive military intervention of non-german states. unsigned, Nov. 16th, 2006

Where are The Stem Duchies
How come no discussion of the "Stem Dutchies"? These were the primary German states that have survived with unchanged names from the very beginning to today. - SSG Cornelius Seon (Retired) 22:38, 14 September 2006 (UTC) GERMANY ROCKS!!!!

Music: Beethoven, Bach,... Scorpions?"
I found this rather entertaining to include the Scorpions at the end of this list of accomplished German composers. That is all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.147.67.12 (talk • contribs) 23:35, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

!!! The national hymn is called "Deutschlandlied" and not "Lied der Deutschen" or anything like this....!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.132.62.85 (talk • contribs) 23:55, 23 January 2007
 * The hymn is known by both names, but the original title is "Das Lied der Deutschen", as can be seen on this facsimile of the handwritten text by Hoffmann von Fallersleben Lars T. 15:20, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Most important foreign languages
"The most important foreign languages taught at school are English, French, Latin, Italian and Ancient Greek. Some languages, such as Russian, Turkish, Spanish, Chinese, Japanese, Polish and Arabic are taught less widely."

As far as I know, Spanish is taught much more than Ancient Greek, isn't it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.134.225.33 (talk • contribs) 13:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I would say that Spanish and ancient Greek are equally "exotic". Depends on the schools focus. I would not dare to say which of the two languages is *in numbers* taught more often.--84.172.250.219 19:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I went to a gymnasium in Villingen-Schwilligen for awhile. The students there were required to take take three languages: English was mandatory, then one Romantic language, and one ancient language. But the school didn't offer Spanish or Ancient Greek. Weird. 12.77.133.70 04:04, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, where I'm from, most schools offer Spanish as a language in school, whereas Ancient Greek is pretty much gone. I'd guess that Spanish would be way more "influential" these days than it was about 30 years ago.

Third Reich Picture
The propaganda photograph of German soldiers in the Third Reich section does not adequately exemplify the national behavior of Germany during that time. I would propose adding a photograph of Berlin during the Third Reich as an alternative. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mach Seventy (talk • contribs) 18:25, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The picture shows the start of WWII, probably the most significent action of the Germans in that era.Nevfennas 19:03, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Order of Importance
The president (called the Bundespräsident) is a representiv institution and not a part of the government. Nevertheless the president is the head of state! The Bundespräsident is elected by an extraordinary parliament called the Bundesversammlung (federal assembly).

The second highest role is the Bundestagspräsident (president of the parliament) and not a part of the government. Third it is the chancellor as head of the government. Both Bundestagspräsident and chancellor are elected by the Bundestag. The vice-chancellor is a non-elected person, often the minister of foreign affairs or the most important minister in a coalition, and designated by the chancellor.

How to divide between parts of the government and the head of state in the info box?

The chapter of politics has to be completed. Geo-Loge 22:15, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Why do we need anybody besides President and Chancellor in the box? Kusma (討論) 14:43, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Because the Chancellor is the third highest institution in the order of importance. The vice-chancellor is unnecessary (in that list ;-) ). Geo-Loge 15:09, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * That is the German order of precedence, not related to importance. If we list actual importance first, then we should probably list most of the Minister-Presidents ahead of the President. Why don't we just list head of state and head of government like for the UK? Kusma (討論) 15:21, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The UK is an unfitting example (its order of precedence fills half the studies of international relations just to reach the head of government). Italy for example has even two institutions between head of state and head of government. The article only presents this both. Let us take only head of state and head of government (under the point of government?) if is standard this way. Geo-Loge 16:09, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Germany is up for deletion
Attention Germany experts! The above listed WikiProject is up for deletion - please share your perspective on the deletion. If you want the WikiProject to survive the MfD, please join the WikiProject and start contributing to it today! There is no sense in deleting a WikiProject that could become an elite group in the future, so I strongly urge Wikipedians who has even little knowledge of Germany to join that WikiProject. It seems the only reason for deleting that WikiProject is because it has had a history of inactivity - especially when it has (up to today) no members. Join it and save it today! S GF  F  ( @ ) 14:00, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Almost no work has been put into the project. Create a new project after the old stale pages have been deleted. There is nothing here to save. All project-like work has been done at the German-speaking noticeboard. Kusma (討論) 14:39, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Third Reich section
This section doesn't seem terribly well written. It talks about the holocaust (and the 6 million jwes that were killed) both in the center of the section and then again at the end, for no particular reason. The section as a whole needs a prose improvement. Harley peters 00:09, 4 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I've removed the redunant extra section, probably the work of just another Polish nationalist vandal (sighs). Unfortunately, other Polish nationalists are at work here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.109.141.163 (talk • contribs) 20:39, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

One fact is plain wrong in the Third Reich chapter: It was not Germany that declared war on Britain and France in September 1939, but the other way around. Look up any history book. I can't change this since I am not logged in the English Wikipedia, so if someone could correct it, thanx.
 * Fixed. Wonder how that got there? --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 02:18, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Leisure Activities
I thought it would be helpful to list leisure activities that the people of Germany like to participate in? That's my opinion. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.144.85.118 (talk • contribs) 17:27, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Geman Music: Mozart??
Having just returned from a trip to Vienna, I wonder if Austrians would be somewhat surprised to see Mozart included in the list of pre-eminent German composers as he was born in Austria and spent much of his active career in Vienna, with an important time in Prague (that was at the time part of the Austrian Empire). Perhaps someone with more knowledge of German music and Mozart specifically could confirm whether Mozart's name belongs in the Germany article or not. Corlyon 19:34, 15 October 2006 (UTC)Corlyon


 * You're partly wrong; at the time of Mozart there existed no Austrian Empire at all. Vienna, Prague and also his place of birth, Salzburg, belonged to the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, which is regarded the predecessor state of both modern Germany and Austria, and he said of himself that he was a "German composer". This makes your question a rather complicated one. I'm not a Mozart expert but saying he was Austrian would be as wrong as saying he was German.--84.56.232.254 20:12, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I thought there had to be a catch. And if Mozart thought of himself as a "German" composer, then I can see why he has been included here and in the article Music of Germany as well as in the Music of Austria article.  Corlyon 02:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)Corlyon


 * The country we call "Germany" today should really be called "Prussia", or something along those lines. Then you'd have Prussia and Austria, two German nations, and nobody would get confused.  The point about Salzburg is true.  It was a state separate from the Habsburg ("Austrian") area of the Holy Roman Empire.  Salzburg did not become part of what we now know as Austria until much later.  So even if you want to use such a non-historical term as "Austrian composer", it should be noted that he wasn't even born in the Archduchy of Austria, or under Habsburg control.  A quick glance at any of the articles on Wikipedia (or any history book) will illustrate the fact that if you lived in Vienna, you considered yourself German, right up until when WWII made it rather unpopular to be "German".  Modern-day Germany and Austria are both ethnically German nations, and have a shared history.  Note that Beethoven, a "German" composer, worked in Vienna as well.  Vienna was the place to be, as it was the capital of the Holy Roman Empire.  If you spoke German as your first language prior to 1945, chances are you considered yourself a German, regardless of what flag flew in your city.  Put it this way... if there was a Czech composer born in the Austrian Empire, in the early 1800s, would his Wikipedia entry call him an "Austrian composer" or a "Czech composer"?  --anon. Dec 4, 2006 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.104.113.26 (talk • contribs).


 * Yeepers, don't call today's Germany 'Prussia', you are selling us short - because you are leaving off huge stretches of Bavaria, Rhineland etc... MadMaxDog 13:29, 2 January 2007 (UTC) (actually of (East) Prussian extraction)

S-Protect
I just protected this because it had a lot of vandalism coming through. If I shouldn't have, message me. -- teh tennisman Speak your piece!People person!FREE STUFF CLICK HERE 20:36, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

50 Euro Cent
The phrase "50 euro cent coin" strikes me as weird. If anything, I think it should be "50 cent euro coin". 惑乱 分からん 13:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

It is called "eurocent"! 88.72.206.240 20:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Kettenkrad 10:14, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * In common language everyone only says "Cent". In official langauge and when a confusion with the "US-Cent" is possible, one says "Euro-Cent".

4th to 9th Centuries
The period 300 A.D. to c. 820 A.D. appears as a gap in the table of contents under "history", not to mention the text. May we have at least a cursory treatment?

Jeffrey L. Johnson jflnjnsn@yahoo.com 31 Oct 2006 1711 hrs GMT

Government
The Bundespräsident is not part of the government! Please correct that!

88.74.55.220 21:59, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Coordinates
What do the coordinates in the upper right corner mean and why are they "accurate" up to seconds? The given place is none of those listed at de:Mittelpunkt Deutschlands, so what is it? Kusma (討論) 15:54, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It is a meadow on the left streamside of the river Leine in a suburb of Göttingen; or as said in German: The "navel of the world".. ;) Seriously: Why giving a polycentral area just one (infinitesimal) location? Even if it is on the geographical balance point, it seems not to be sensible. Geo-Loge 14:10, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe somebody lives there. The German Wikipedia uses the same address, I have asked for clarification there. Kusma (討論) 15:40, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Neighbouring countries
The chart is hideous & ridiculous, but apparently it's in all the country articles now. Who is to blame? --Janneman 17:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Akanemoto. Perhaps we should just TFD the template used, as it is only used in places where it is inappropriate. Kusma (討論) 18:08, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds reasonable. Anyway, I am going to remove it from this here article right now.--Janneman 18:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with that, that non-sense template only takes up more space on country articles. TSO1D 18:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * By now I've cleared all of of Europe of this monster, no one has complained yet. --Janneman 19:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * That's because the sun hasn't yet risen over the land of the rising sun :) TSO1D 19:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I did it. Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_November_29. Thanks for your vote. --Janneman 21:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Homeschooling and the law
I'd like to point out that schooling is a matter of the Länder (states), not Germany itself – though the Constitution states that Article 7 [School education] (1) The entire school system shall be under the supervision of the state. The consequences for pupils (and their parents) not to show up at school (or be "home-schooled") varies quite a bit between the states, and can indeed go up to jail.

The source article for "There has been some publicity to government prosecution of this practice" not only shows what kind of people get prosecuted: "'In public school, the occult is in all subjects -- be it math, language, or science. There are essays about witches and the occult. They have to practice all week and then they'll write about it. And it gets ingrained into their beings,' said Waldemar." but is also factually wrong in blaming it on Adolf Hitler. Well, the biggest reason for compulsory schooling is that children don't get denied a (factual) education by their parents, and that those who do deny it actually commit child neglect. Lars T. 20:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that the source is not the most credible or "factual" page, however it does back the idea that there has been some media atention to prosecution of those who refuse compulsory schooling. I don't really care about that sentence. If you want to, you can remove the entire part about media attention. But again, I wouldn't look to deeply into it, the sources don't have to be true in all respects; they just have to support a part of the text. By the very fact that the story exists it shows that there is indeed some media attention even if most of their arguments are complete non-sense. TSO1D 15:31, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Picture of the Bundestag
If we show a picture of the bundestag, shouldn't we take one, that shows a German member of the Parlament speaking and not the U.S. President? This is an Article about Germany, not the U.S.
 * If you can find I one I wouldn't have a problem with it. TSO1D 21:16, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Science and Technology Section
It appears that the science and technology section is at the moment just a long list of names. That contravenes Wikipedia policy regarding the inclusion of lists inside of articles (see What_Wikipedia_is_not. I wish to remove this section entirely unless there is any opposition. Please express your views on this matter. TSO1D 00:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, sorry. I reverted that deletion without extra notice together with the transport stuff. However, the section is not only a list, and not a list in the policy sense at all. Read the examples given - this policy does not apply even to the subparts that do list names of scientists, inventors and mathematicions. --Stephan Schulz 00:30, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * But I still the believe that the list of names constitues a free standing directory. I believe it would be much better if the list of names could be replaced by more prose that would integrate the names of some of the individuals listed. TSO1D 00:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I disagree with the first part. From WP:NOT: "Of course, there is nothing wrong with having lists if their entries are famous because they are associated with or significantly contributed to the list topic...", which I would argue applies here. These people are famous because they're scientists, inventors or mathematicians. And I don't see these as directories (as e.g. white or yellow pages) at all. A bit more prose would be nice, but if meaningful it would also quickly run up the article length again. Most people should know most of the names, and if not there are linked articles for nearly all of them.--Stephan Schulz 00:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * But a list of famous Germans is already linked at the bottom and that includes lists important musicians, scientists, and others; I am afraid that having this information here might be repetitive. See for instance some featured articles on countries such as Canada or Belgium. From previous discussions, my understanding is that such lists are not generally desired in articles. However I can also see your point regarding the people mentioned being important and thus not violating WP:Not, so I'm not sure what's best to be done. TSO1D 00:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism
This page is demolated or vandalised or whatever(first headline in the History section). Please fix that.

Energy section
I entirely removed this section from the article and moved some of its parts to economics. However, although I believe this information to be much too detailed for the general article on Germany, it might fit somewhere else, I just don't know where. Well... here is is: "==Energy policy== In 1999, electricity production in Germany was powered by coal (47%), nuclear power (30%), natural gas (14%), renewable sources (including hydroelectricity, wind and solar power) (6%), and oil (2%). As for energy consumption, oil accounted for 41% of the total. At the World climate conference, the German government announced a carbon dioxide reduction target of 25% by the year 2005 as compared to 1990, to protect global climate. In 2000, the German SPD-led government along with (Alliance '90/The Greens), officially announced its intention to phase out the use of nuclear energy. Jürgen Trittin as the Minister of Environment, Nature Conservation and Nuclear Safety, reached an agreement with energy companies ending the civil usage of nuclear power by 2020.

In 2005, the German government reached an agreement with Russia to build a gas pipeline along the bottom of the Baltic Sea directly from Russia to Germany. Bypassing Poland and other Baltic countries led to controversy.

Due in part to generous subsidies, Germany leads Europe by having the greatest capacity on the continent to generate electricity from sun and wind. This achievement was boosted by the Renewable Energies Act (EEG), introduced on April 1, 2000, aimed at achieving a minimum 12% market share for renewable energy by 2010. By 2005, German solar electricity capacity had reached 794 MWp (78.6% of total European capacity), while wind generating capacity had reached 16,629 MWp (48.4% of European capacity) It is estimated that the renewable industries now employ, directly or indirectly, more than 120,000 people. Germany has committed to a 21% reduction in carbon dioxide emissions from 1990 levels by 2012. In terms of total capacity to generate electricity from windpower, Germany is No.1 in the world and its emphasis on renewable energy sources has resulted in the founding of numerous high-tech companies for such technologies. Germany is also the main exporter of wind turbines, the demand greatly exceeding capacity. " TSO1D 15:07, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Major restructuring mainly by TSO1D
The article is currently restructured, mainly by. I appreciate that such effort is invested, but it is slightly worrying when an important article like this is completely re-worked as it is hard to compare changes in the history. Please give a short overview on the reasons and the changes in addition to prior talk and single edit summaries, especially if content is added, removed or moved elsewhere. Also, due to edits by others in between, some changes may be undetected. Thanks in advance. -- Matthead discuß!    O       02:32, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi Matt, I have in fact been trying to explain all of my actions, however since this article has been nominated for FA status, I have made most of my more detailed comments there. If you have any specific answers though, I will be glad to answer them. TSO1D 02:59, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Inventors
212.204.77.151 12:09, 29 December 2006 (UTC) Please, note and correct in "Science and Technology": Zuse was the real and first inventor of computer and programming language, not a part of the automotive and air transportation technology. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_Zuse http://irb.cs.tu-berlin.de/~zuse/Konrad_Zuse/de/
 * Thank you very much for pointing that out. 14:53, 29 December 2006 (UTC) TSO1D 14:53, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Deutscher Fussballbund is not spelled right
in the paragraph on sports it says "...and the German Football Federation (Deutsche Fussballbund)...." right is Deutscher Fussballbund (DFB) the "r" is missing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by B30wuLF (talk • contribs) 01:05, 30 December 2006 (UTC).
 * Ok I changed it. I though of that myself, I mean it is der Bund after all, however I took the term from a German governmental site: http://www.germany.info/relaunch/culture/life/sports.html and I didn't think they could make such a spelling error. But I guess they did... TSO1D 01:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * They did not, it's due to tricky German grammar. It's either "der Deutsche Bund" / the "Deutsche Bund", or "Deutscher Bund" for short. Applies also for many other terms. -- Matthead discuß!    O       04:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh German! In the little time that I neglected its study such details have already been lost to me. Oh well. Thank you Matt, this makes sense now. TSO1D 04:47, 30 December 2006 (UTC)