Talk:Gharmi people

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The HRW report (which is given as a source for the massacre claim) doesn't mention massacre. It talks about some incidents of summary executions during the civil war. Which source is used for that sentence? Interpreting some incidents of summary execution as massacre seems like Original Research. Jahangard 00:56, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Wow! There's a lot of big allegations in that one. I think Jahangard should really study a little bit more about the history of Tajikistan before he does many more edits. He should also read all of the sources before making dangerous allegations as above. If he had read the second source, as well as the two paper sources cited, he would have noted a clear and consistent historiography pattern that there is a concensus amongst researchers that there was a massacre of Garmis and Pamiris. Actually I don't think any except Jahangard dispute this fact and the only reason he does is because he is obviously completely ignorant of the Civil War in Tajikistan. The second source listed was published by the Open Society Institute and states, which is there for Janhangard to plainly see, that:

"The Kulobis, led by prominent local criminals and now named the Popular Front, launched a campaign to kill or expel all Garmis from the south, looting and burning their villages. Having completed that, the Popular Front pressed on to Dushanbe, where they arrested and killed scores of prominent Garmis and Pamiris, often on the mere presumption of their sympathy with the opposition." Tajikistan: Refugee Reintegration And Conflict Prevention

Note the the phrase “campaign to kill or expel all Garmis from the south.” This happened in 1992 and 1993 and is clearly documented by OSI, Human Rights Watch, and the United Nations, amongst others. There is no original research going on here, but there are some fallacious accusations based on total ignorance being tossed around here. —David Straub 03:37, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I also checked OSI report. It hasn't mentioned massacre either. Anyway, mentioning HRW report as reference for a sentence, when it doesn't support that sentence, is not acceptable. About OSI report, you can mention these allegation ("killing prominent Garmis on the mere presumption of their sympathy with the opposition") as their claim and their analysis (not as undoubtable facts).  Jahangard 03:38, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Fine. Let's have others join this dispute. Who is doing original reseach here? There are four sources. Jahangard accusses the Open Society Institute, an internationally recognized NGO, as making up this stuff??? It's Jahangard who is violating wikipedia's policy of POV with these edits! Thanks Jahangard for a little lession is revisionist history!!!--David Straub 04:09, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi all. I just wanted to point out that sources don't necessarily have to be neutral—as long as they're attributed properly. For example, instead of having to present something as an undisputed fact, we can phrase it as, "according to the Open Society Institute..." After that, we can provide sources with opposing views. What do people think? Khoikhoi 04:21, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. The problem with the current edition is that it mentions HRW report as a reference for a sentence, while the report itself doesn't support that. Jahangard 05:31, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Again, I have to state that if an attack is going to made against a source, then the source should be read in its totality. Jahangard has stated several times that the OSI report doesn’t support the claim in this wikipedia article that “Garmis were targeted for massacres.” Let’s read what the OSI article says:


 * Pro-government paramilitary groups entered Dushanbe, the capital of Tajikistan, on December 10, 1992. Led by the Popular Front of Tajikistan, the main pro-government army in the civil war, they conducted a campaign of summary executions and "disappearances" of people of Pamiri and Garmi (regions of Tajikistan that had supported the DPT-IRP coalition) origins, killing more than 300 and "disappearing" hundreds of others. According to eyewitnesses interviewed by the Moscow-based human rights group Memorial and Helsinki Watch, Popular Front soldiers and other pro-government forces stopped buses and trolley buses, stopped people on streets, and deployed forces at the Dushanbe airport in order to check individuals' documents. In many instances, those whose passports indicated that they were born in Pamir or Garm were killed or simply taken away and not heard from again. Graves containing as many as twenty or thirty corpses were exhumed in several places in and around Dushanbe.


 * The Popular Front committed summary executions in villages on the outskirts of Dushanbe after DPT-IRP rebels had already retreated, and, in at least one instance, the village of Subulak, in places that had never been a base for rebels. In another village called Kyrgyzon in January, the Popular Front, apportioning to itself law enforcement responsibilities, arrested and executed a thirty-one-year-old man (of Garmi origins) whom a neighbor had accused of murder. The summary execution was preceded by a two-minute "people's trial" in front of villagers.


 * ….It is not known how many people disappeared in 1993. The disappeared were principally individuals who supported the DPT-IRP coalition or who were of Pamiri or Garmi origins. Their captors were paramilitary bands and warlords, mainly from Kuliab, one of the regions of Tajikistan that supports the current government. In some cases law enforcement officials mayhave been involved in the disappearances. A highly-placed Ministry of Internal Affairs (MVD) official, in an informal conversation with Memorial, alleged that MVD staff members sometimes collaborated in kidnapping. In addition, he stated that the MVD was most likely aware of the general pattern of disappearances and the reported existence of so-called "informal prisons." In the second half of 1993, disappearances became more professional and, in at least two cases, took place in the full view of local government or law enforcement officials.”


 * Is this clear enough to support the statement that “Garmis were targeted for massacres?”––David Straub 08:05, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I didn't mean to delete jahangar's last comments. I accidently highlighted it and pasted over it ater writing my response in Microsoft word and copying and pasting it. Anyway, I'm waiting for a response to my last comments.––David Straub 00:41, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

It says:

'a campaign of summary executions and "disappearances" of people of Pamiri and Garmi (regions of Tajikistan that had supported the DPT-IRP coalition) origins, killing more than 300 and "disappearing" hundreds of others.'

We should remain true to the source. - Francis Tyers · 19:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I know it's kind of a tedious thing to do, especially for administrators, but people should actually READ ALL THE SOURCES before tagging pages with "citation" tags. The first source listed on the page, the one by OSI, states
 * "When Tajikistan gained independence in September 1991, following the abortive coup against Mikhail Gorbachev in Moscow, the long-excluded groups of Tajiks—Garmis and Pamiris from Gorno-Badakshan—actively participated in the peaceful street protests aimed at dislodging the communist-backed leadership...But the battle quickly shifted from Dushanbe to the south, where Garmis and other opposition forces battled with the Kulobi militias defending the old order....The Kulobis, led by prominent local criminals and now named the Popular Front, launched a campaign to kill or expel

all Garmis from the south, looting and burning their villages. Having completed that, the Popular Front pressed on to Dushanbe, where they arrested and killed scores of prominent Garmis and Pamiris, often on the mere presumption of their sympathy with the opposition."
 * I think that supports the statement in this article that "many Garmis joined the Islamic opposition." Does anyone disagree? No offense Francis Tyers, but if your an administrator on Tajik Wikipedia, you should really know about this basic history of the country. I'm removing the citation tag.


 * Also, I think the dispute tag should be removed. It was placed by Jahangauard on this page and on the Civil War in Tajikistan page. He removed the tag from that page but has yet to remove this one, despite the fact that both tags were over the same issue (see above)--David Straub 13:57, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll remove the tag as I don't see an ongoing dispute here. Regarding the citations. The reason I added the tag was because it is not clear which citation applies to which assertion. I could go through and do it myself (as I probably should have done), but I have a lot of other stuff to do, and this was a way of highlighting the deficiency. My apologies for not explaining on the talk page, I should have realised that it could be misconstrued. - Francis Tyers · 14:42, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I've made an attempt to move the citations to apply to the parts which they support. If I got something wrong I would ask you to fix it, or explain to me and I will fix it. Regarding the Tajik Wikipedia, we're always looking for volunteers to help out, we are but 3-4 strong. You are clearly experienced with Wiki-formatting and your help would be much appreciated. - Francis Tyers · 14:51, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Name in Tajik
Would it be 'гарми' or 'ғарми'? - Francis Tyers · 14:56, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Ғармӣ is the standard spelling. Ғарм (Persian alphabet: غرم) is the correct spelling of the name of that city. See (including results from www.parlament.tj and www.ozodi.org). Jahangard 19:55, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok cool, I included it. From a search I suspected that was the right version. Another question, should we move the article to Garmi people rather than Garmis? There are some articles that are just X and some are X people. Personally I prefer the latter, but would be open to comments :) - Francis Tyers · 20:55, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I think this article should be merged with Garm, Tajikistan. "Garmi" and "Kulabi" are more regional, rather than ethnic terms (unlike Pamiri, or Badakhshani which refers to an ethnic group). Sughdis, Garmis and Kulabis have the same religion and the same language (with slightly different accents). Jahangard 21:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not much of an authority on this to say whether they have a separate national/ethnic identity. I found a source here, which describes the Garmis and Pamiris as "clans". The Forsaken People: Case Studies of the Internally Displaced By Roberta (EDT) Cohen, Francis Mading (EDT) Deng describes them as "communities". Ethnic Conflict in the Post-Soviet World: case studies and analysis by Leokadija M. Drobiževa describes them as "those Tajiks currently living in the regions of the Garm Valley or those who's ancestors came from there".


 * This is quite informative on the matter. Anyway, I'm not sure how it should go. I'd like to see if there are many differences between the general Tajik culture and the Garmi culture. - Francis Tyers · 21:43, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the definition given by Drobiževa is the most exact definition of the term (of course this my POV :) ). Jahangard 21:57, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * If so it should probably be merged with Tajik people. But far be it from me to take an action unilaterally :) - Francis Tyers · 00:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I definately don't think that this article should be merged into Tajik people, which is an article about Tajiks in several different countries. Moving this article to Garmi people would be fine. Whether you want to call them an ethnic group or a clan, the Garmis are a distinct group in Tajikistan. If you go to Tajikistan, speak to Tajiks, or read literature about Tajikistan, especially about the civil war, it's quite obvious they are a distinct group; whether they're an ethnic group or clan, I don't know. Knowing about groups such as Garmis and Pamiris is also essential for understanding what occurred in Tajikistan in the 1990s.––David Straub 10:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, I moved the page. It would be nice to have some general information on the group rather than just what occurred during the war. - Francis Tyers · 11:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Language / dialect
While there is no sure criteria for judging what is a "language" and what is a "dialect", I note that there are no results from Google scholar for a "Garmi language", but then there are none for "Garmi dialect" either. I think it is best for now just to leave Tajik. - Francis Tyers · 12:18, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

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