Talk:Ghosh/Archive 1

Hello
Hello all,

I happened across this page whilst trying to do some family history analysis - as an aside I would be grateful for any help anyone could provide as to sources etc for the "Ghosh" family history.

I believe the "Ghose" spelling is the one generally associated with the "goaal" (cow herding) ghosh clan - but am no means an expert. This is simply what I have heard from many people, including our family puroit (priest) when I got married.

Thanks,

Anit

Hi,

I have edited out the Ghose/ Ghosh cow herding thing as I don't think we can evidence it either way - certainly not from the list of clan members!

Thanks,

Anit

My views
Hi, My mother's family is Ghosh from Vikrampur Dhaka, According to her grandfather, she mentions, that her family came from Kashmir... Now thats a very ambiguos data, which can add more to the confusion...

But Kashmir or not, there's proof that they came at least from some part of Northern India... There is a family genealogy record that shows the names of 14 generations, and the names were something you would hear only in Northern India... Ghosh and the other so called Kayastha Ghosh.

At least from your document I can safely assume, that Ghoshes coming in and around Dhaka belong to this clan...

I Ghosh might be from West Bengal... but thats just a theory... Do you have some points that can differentiate between the two Ghosh clans ? Besides the naming argument you gave (which i think is very erroneous...)

And, one more thing... The point you made about Kshatriya clan... yes i agree with it...and i am very thankful to know I thought Ghoshes were Kayasthas, conferred on that title by Ballal Sen...

Also, from where did you get this idea that Ghoshes came from Mithila ?

Can you provide some good replies... R Ghosh

At last some more contributors!
Hello there,

To clarify, this is not my page - I simply came across it looking for more family information. I simply edited the ghosh/ ghose thing as it seemed unverifiable.

My family is Ghose from Idilpur in E.Bengal. Would be interested in speaking to you about any family info we could share. My email is anitrc @ hotmail. com

On your points above.

I agree that Ghoses are Kayasthas. Looking at the kayastha page, it would suggest that this is a sub group of Kshatriya - but I have little knowledge of caste based distinctions, so I leave it to experts to change.

The kayastha page also has some clues on origins in that the caste is spread all over the country west to east.

Not sure about the origins thing, could be difficult to unravel without expert attention. I have heard Mithila from other sources though.

All the best,

Anit

Hi anit
Hello Anit...

Maybe you could provide some own details of your family tree... or stories that you've heard, so that we can improve this page

Some Insights
Guys, here are some insights based on what I've heard via family and read/researched. Apparently, five brahmins from Kanauj came to Bengal to perform a ritual on the request of a regional king (Pala or Sena). Each of them brought an apprentice with them who were kayasthas and one of them was name Marakanda Ghosa i.e. Ghosh. I'm not sure where in the Bengal (or Gaur at that time) region these people came to perform their rituals or how they got to East Bengal. My family originally hails from Bikrampur from a place called Kamargao (I've googled earthed it but can't really get any detail on it except it's surrounded by a lot of water and waterways). I have heard that type of geography described by my dad and some older people within the extended family. I had also heard via family that we originally came from some place around Ayodhya. Anyway, we can trace back roughly seven or eight generations and they all lived in and around Bikrampur Kamargao. I don't know if this adds anything but it's certainly nice to share with other Ghosh's since we all trace back to the same lineage somehow.

Cheers!

RSG

My family history
Hello all,

As requested some family tree history

Our family tree is patchy - what little remains is from what my father remembers so is not really "encyclopedic"!!

Our family is one of the "Baro Bhuian" and we are descended from one Kandarpa Ray of Chandradeep - I'm not sure of the significance of this - not much info on the Baro Bhuian on the web other than that they were twelve powerful landowners (both hindu and muslim) in the Bengal region fighting invaders.

Our family was always based around Idilpur in Faridpur district in E. Bengal. Our village was "Daserjungle" (or "Rai nagar" if you were a social climber!!), although previously we were based in "Jasurgaon" and "Musurgaon" (now submerged by the Megna).

We are Ghosh Roy-Choudhury/ Chowdhury and my direct paternal line goes: Anit (me), Anish Chandra (father), Abinash Chandra (GF), Golak Chandra (GGF), Kamalakantha (GGGF), Devaprasad (GGGGF), and Haraprasad (GGGGGF) (who we estimate at about 1570CE). Kamalkantha apparently founded a "ghat" at Benares called (somewhat unsurprisingly) "Kamalakantha Ghat"...but I have found no evidence for this yet... Kamalakantha was apparently a famed philanthropist and was called "Dansagar" due to his charitable works.

Haraprasad's sister was apparently married into the royal family of Maymansing, with various colorful stories about adoption and ca retaking of property...but again little evidence availble.

That's all I know! I'm really interested in finding out more, particularly the link to the "Baro Bhuian", and any link to the origins of the Ghosh family.

Many thanks,

A

Oh! P.S. Geeta Dutt is on one our "gaati" family relations. I visited her home in Bombay during the eighties when i was a little kid and met some members of her family there - not sure if there is anyone left alive (except for my dad) who know each other in the families now though!

Stories from My Family
''The term Rajputra first emerged as a title used by some of the rulers referring to their royal ancestors. The term was first used at the time of Harshavardhana (7th century CE) and later by the Sena king Vijayasena, a Chahamana officer named Jojal (c.1183 CE) and by certain descendants of the Shahi clan of Kashmir. The term was used in inscriptions for the crown princes of the Kalachuri dynasty and by dynasties in Orissa, Bengal and Assam.''

The above excerpt is from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_Rajputs Which might link something ?

My father's family sometimes claim that they are from Ayodhya, and i was surprised to see another user here, claiming to hear the same... But besides that there is nothing else I have heard that matters here...

Regarding my mother's family who are also Ghoses... My mother's uncle claimed that they were of Jat origin...(just a random claim, he made) While my mother's grandpa, who kept the names of 14 generations,(I'll post the name list as soon as I acquire it)claimed that the family came originally from Kashmir... They came as warriors, perhaps after being in a war...to get shelter... They called themselves UGRA KSHATRIYA, ie., "Degraded Kshatriyas"

Successful foreign invaders who established themselves in power were known as degraded Kshatriyas till they recognised the higher status of the Brahmins in the caste hierarchy. http://www.hindubooks.org/sudheer_birodkar/hindu_history/caste2classes.html

They fled to Vikrampur... during the reign of some Sena king there... This matches quite a lot with history, because I have learnt that when the muslims came till upto Bengal, Laksman Sena fled to some place near Dhaka (possibly Vikrampur)

Now it might have been possible that they came fleeing the muslims... and thus reached Vikrampur...

Now, I also know, as some user has mentioned before, of the origin of Kayastha by some Makaranda Ghosh, who became the ancestor of all Kayastha Ghoshes... Isnt the Kayastha caste different from Kshatriya ? then how come some Ghosh claim Kshatriya ancestry ?

One more thing, I would like to point out... Besides Kayastha Ghosh, Kshatriya Ghosh

Now Kayastha Ghosh is the one they say, don't marry with other Ghoshes... Therefore, Ghoshes who marry among each other, definitely must be either Sadgope Ghosh, or this Kshatriya one...

By the way, just for the record, my mother's grandpa Upendra Ghosh came from Abdullapur in Vikrampur. He had a large factory in the area, and had connections with Sadhu Ghosh, a zamindar there. His cousin Parasuraram Ghosh now is a builder/propreitor in Kolkata...

My father's family, starts from Ashutosh (father), Balaram(GF), KhepaChand (GGF) [already came to India from E-bengal 50 years before independence], Chaitanya Ghosh (GGGF)(from east bengal, in dhaka district, but not sure from where)

Besides Anit, my mom's grandpa, named one of my mom's cousin as Kamalakantha. He apparently, insisted on giving that name only and no other. Maybe he must have been knowing somethin.... :)

Great additions
Great additions to the page. I have just sectioned it up and hopefully made some of it flow a little more smoothly. Let's hope we can find some expert input soon.

All the best,

Anit

Thanks anit

Expert Attention
Hello all,

As a last bit of editing from me I have added in an expert attention tag to the top of the page.

In particular I think we need input from an expert or access to verifiable sources on bengali history, caste in bengal, and family history data for bengali kayastha and specifically Ghosh families.

Additionally if there is anyone who knows about baro bhuian I would be very interesed in hearing from them!!

Thanks everyone,

Anit

Anon edit/ revert
Hello,

I was surprosed to see a wholesale revert to the old version of this page!

Could the editor please let us know why they felt that the old version should be put back?

I think the discussion page had move the article along a great deal - speciaifcally breaking out the three types of ghosh families, and adding a more enclyclopedic style with introduction etc.

I don't think that the inforamtion in either version is very well supported, but the expert attention tags had been added.

Please respond with your comments,

Thanks,

A

Back to revised version
Hello,

I have reverted this page to the revised version developed with the help of a number of contributors.

I hope the previous author can understand the points highlighted above with respect to choice of pages

1. More encyclopaedic style 2. Clearer separation of three types of ghosh families and associated histories 3. The same problems with verification as the older version, but heavily tagged in the hope of an expert turning up

If you have a better sourced version of this page please do make changes, and let us know what you have done.

Many thanks,

57.66.51.74 13:57, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Baro Bhuyian
Manythanks to the user who added the great information on baro Bhuyian.

I have have taken the liberty of rephrasing some of the addtions I hope this is OK - please revert if I have misinterpreted your additons.

Also it would be great if we could get any references you have used into the article?

Many, many thanks,

A212.22.230.43 13:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi
I stumbled on this page while surfing Wikipedia, and realized that this was really important to me as this will be a key resource for my American-born son (whose mother, my wife, is Dutch -American). My family are Baro Bhuiyan descendants of Pratapaditya and Kedar Rai, and as I studied the Bengal Varna system as part of my Ancient Indian History at Jadavpur University in Kolkata I took the liberty of modifying the section around the Goala Ghoshes. "Sadgope" is, from my understanding, a reference to those Ghoshes who are not Kayasthas. From what I know, Gotro (sp?) is the key to the mystery of origin - we are of the Shoukalin Gotro and did not marry other Shoukalin Ghoshes (until my cousin went ahead and did it anyway - we couldn't find any evidence of relationship with her husband for seven generations and figured that it was OK in the late 20th century!). As far as family lore (and a very, very old yellow roll of paper) has it, we are descended from one Darpa Narayan Ghosh who was the Senapati of the Raja of Tripura who was of the Deb Burman family. Our family seat was a place called Kolakopa (in the British administrative district of Tipperah or British Tripura) which is now in Comilla District in Bangladesh. My Grandfather was born there and my father, although he was born in West Bengal, visited our property there frequently as a child. Just before independence, my Grandfather declared it Devatta or Temple property (attached to our Kalibari there, and therefore never apropriated by the Governments of East Pakistan or Bangladesh under the partition agreements governing religious buildings). I tried to make my way there from Dhaka during a brief visit in the 90s but was stymied by the weather. My Dad is now 83, and the last surviving brother of his five siblings. Does anybody here know about the legend of Pratapaditya and Raja Mansingh? We were told as children that the Kali Murti at the Ambar Palace in Jaipur was stolen by Mansingh from our family during Mughal incursions into Eastern India after the fall of the Afghans, and he built five replicas of the Murti and placed them all over Bengal, with one being at Amadanga near Barasat in the North 24 Parganas. Any info would be appreciated. Ighosh

"The ghosh were rajputs they were kshtriyas formed by chauhan.THE ghosh agnivanshi."

Request for sources
Dear editors,

Many thanks for all your contributions and for moving this page on a great deal.

I would echo the requests of the editor above for us to try to add references for existing and updated information.

We are now at a stage where we need to start adding depth to the information on the page. This can only be done with verifiable facts, although it is fasinating to hear about peoples' family histories here on the talk page!

Also the Sadgope Ghosh section is I believe integral to the article as they are on of the key groups of people with a ghosh surname.

Mr IGhosh, my family are also shoukalin Ghosh and as such will not marry other shoukalin Ghoshes, but what I am not clear on is whether all kaystha ghoshes are shoukalin or not? My family history as we know it is detialed above.

I would ask all editors to use this talk page to discuss their changes, and please try to change opinion for fact (with references) rather than just opinion for opinion. As we do not yet have references of our statements presenting the information with qualifiers may be more appropriate than presenting information as undisputable fact. (e.g. "all" to "many", "the majority" to "a significant proportion" - unless we have some data to support the more definitive statement).

Many thanks,

AnitFonoq35 10:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

rajput ghosh
i59.95.105.255 10:51, 27 December 2006 (UTC) ghosh deleting the ghosh who want to proof them sad gope.but it is not their because i want to tell u that some loafers are giving their wrong name and try to make sadgope because they fill guilty. but ghosh are brave rajputs. i will delete the files upto my last breath.i think this wikipedia is want to check the power of ghosh. yes fight upto last breath. ghosh zindabad.59.95.101.33 14:44, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

ghosh khandhan zindabad
yes, iam aruging with u. because if u are a ghosh and u are telling yourself sadgope then u should die. because u don,t know the true i think your tittle will be yadav and i think u will be bihari one. raja Aginev dev ghosh the king of nassingpur [orrisa]. we can talk with me about this topic. my ph no. 247732. a ghosh[delhi public school]vindhyanagar,ntpc

Ghosh rajput indian caste
see i am also an rajput my real name : Avranjan ghosh while iam told to be kayastha but in bengali kayastha are known as rajput or kshtriyas. see man don't try to fight with me in this matter.please because i avrajan ghosh {ntpc].my father use to say or teach me that we are the ghosh the biggest clan of india and we are big from all titel,s like bose,palit,mitra,royand ghosh rai. actully we are zamindar,s. as we can see any picture were ghosh are zamindar babu.my uncle shri agniranjan ghosh was the senapati of jessore .while my grand father shri kamal kanthi ghosh was a zamindar

please don't edit this meesage
don't edit this passage or message of new formed 1] kayastha ghosh 2]kshtriyas ghosh it contain's our importance

Hi Anit
Hey Anit...

I'm a Ghosh from good old Dhaka, Bangladesh. I was really intrigued by your family tree. My family tree ends (or starts, whichever way you wanna look at it) with the same person, Haraprasad Ghosh from Faridpur, Bangladesh. We were originally from Faridpur as well until one of my great-grandfathers moved out. From what I know, we are Kayasthas and our gotra is Shoukalin. Not sure how much that contributes to this page! But I would really like to discuss the "Haraprasad Ghosh" connection more if you're interested. It would be great if you could drop a line at shougata@gmail.com. For all I know, we could be like "fifth-cousins" :) !!

My family tree, as I know it:

Myself, Subhash Chandra Ghosh (father - Dhaka), Sudhir Kumar Ghosh (GF - Pabna, B'Desh), Taraknath Ghosh (GGF - Pabna), Ishwar Chandra Ghosh (GGGF - Pabna/Faridpur - Basically he moved out!!), Guruprasad Ghosh (GGGGF - Fridpur) and Haraprasad Ghosh (GGGGGF - Faridpur).

-shougata

hi avranjan
From many day's i was finding that ghosh were having ther very secret and amazing histroy after lot off reading i get the histroy. The ghosh are also famous in various field.add some matter,s in kayastha ,kshtriyas and rajput. we can do it. and reply upto friday. please talk with me through this disscussion page. And help me by adding some material's on ghosh rajput and by giving some large pictures of fort on this ghosh page. give reply jaldi karo anit by avranjan ghosh

Hello AVRANJAN
Hi previously you were being very rude... But now you have done it properly by putting information in the encyclopedia... It would be better now if some editor would correct his english for otherwise his ideas doesnt seem to have been transferred properly to other people...

I certainly identify to some of his idea... Namely --> Arrival during Ballal Sen's time --> A lost war, to the mughals(or muslims as i've heard)

Can any other GHOSH please correlate with these? Do you have any similar ancestry stories... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.164.117.133 (talk) 16:52, 21 February 2007 (UTC).

hello anit
ok what u want we can do but please don't edit this information which i have added in new ghosh.if u can add something new it will be pleasure for me

thank u anit
Hello all,

I'm afraid I have not been able to visit for sometime. I am glad to see some strong contribution to the page, and a bit dissappointed that the sadgope bit has been deleted.

Avranjan, well done on finding all that new information. I won't edit your rajput section if you don't want me to, but you should have a go at improving the flow/ language of the section, maybe re-write it completely so that you can organise your ideas more clearly.

Also if you have some sources could you identify them - it will really help.

Shougata, I will email you to discuss - How exciting!

Thanks,

A

Hi Can aanyone help me out with this please?
I am GHOSH, and Alimayan gotra... My grandfathers tell I am UGRA KSHATRIYA...

Can you tell by my gotra I am what? Thank you —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.164.117.133 (talk) 16:56, 21 February 2007 (UTC).

hello this is avranjan ghosh
i think u may having soukalin gotra. U also a rajput it is not a joke. we are having difeerent gotra like me my some ancestor tell that i am  rana kashyapaya pratape gotra. but this is not true actuaaly we will soukalin gotra.

Question?
What is the difference beween Rajput and UGRA KSHATRIYA? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.164.117.96 (talk) 12:13, 26 February 2007 (UTC).

This Is the DIfference
rajput is one who is king or soldier of rajasthan.not in every state kshtriyas are also regarded same but they are living on different placelike bose,ghosh,ray and guha —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Avranjan ghosh (talk • contribs) 09:04, 27 February 2007 (UTC).

Need Clarity So if you're a Kayastha Ghosh, does that mean you descended from Kshatriyas who at some point stopped being active soldiers? Thanks. RSG What u mean by this?

IMPORTANT

The entry for ghosh in wikipedia is appalling. the grammar and spelling is poor to say the least. It does not make sense an is an insult to us all. I would like to correct it but i fear i will delete or mis translate what was said as it doesnt make any sense.

APALLING STATE OF THE ARTICLE
While the discussion is very interesting it is a shame no one has attempted to correct the article with its atrocious spelling and poor grammar. Much of its makes no sense. I would love to edit it but fear i will delete important information or mis translate it as i cannot understand all of the articles. Please could somone who is more confident sort this out —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.41.202.121 (talk) 10:41, 28 April 2007 (UTC).