Talk:Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence/Archive 1

Quotes relating to "Innocence & Life"
I found these quotes (Mamoru Oshii is know to be concern by religious implications since his earlier age)

"Innocence is life untested, but virtue is innocence tested and triumphant" in WH Griffith Thomas, Hebrews: A Devotional Commentary, found at

He learned obedience in the sense that He learned to obey His father's will as a human. For Jesus, God's will involved suffering (cf. Phil. 2:6-8). "Innocence is life untested, but virtue is innocence tested and triumphant." note 153

"Innocence was lost and conscience was born"

Another quote related to Adam and Eve in W. H. Griffith Thomas, The Book of Genesis.
 * Actually, it's from Walvoord, if you'd care to follow the annotation.

"And banished from man's life his happiest life,Simplicity and spotless innocence!" Paradise Lost, by John Milton


 * These quotes were a bit problematic, since it's an encyclopedia and all and shouldn't just spout quotes for the atmosphere; we need to retain a neutral point of view. I left in the first quote from the list, and took out the second. Additionally, I'm a bit concerned about the number of quotes by Oshii included in this article. It should probably be reduced a bit, but I'm not sure there. -- towo 15:09, 2004 Jun 25 (UTC)


 * Just fine Towo the article was a first 'jet' and you do a good "revamp" ;-)

The movie is so full of quotes i mean it is really a part of Oshii work... --Neuromancien 09:26, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * Prob. you could put in a "Directors take" or something like that and instead of quoting Oshii, you could summarize what he says? -- Aparajit 06:15, Jun 29, 2004 (UTC)

removed link
Removed this link while editing. I can't read japanese, can anyone tell me if it's useful? http://www8.ocn.ne.jp/~medaka/diary-innocence.html. Kim Bruning 07:26, 16 May 2004 (UTC)


 * some original comments and references but hard to translate (babel) --Neuromancien 23:07, 30 May 2004 (UTC)


 * This is a review by a movie afficionado and I don't think it's suitable to be linked. Revth 02:53, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Correct title
Often, the title seems to be given as "Ghost In The Shell: Innocence", "Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence" or even just "Innocence" - in fact, "Innocence: Ghost in the Shell" seems to be the least-used form of title. IMDB entry, for example. I know this is being a bit picky, but it would be good if we could figure out which is the best title to put the article under.

In any case, I've set up several redirects in the meantime, since someone could use any of the names - plus a disambiguation page for "Ghost in the Shell 2", which a lot of people seem to call it. (No disambiguation for "Innocence", though.) I'm not 100% sure these are entirely neccesary, but they should all help people find this entry more easily. - makomk 13:13, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Official Website says Innocence: Ghost in the Shell 2. -- towo 14:50, 2004 Oct 13 (UTC)


 * Actually, when I looked at the website, the sidebar said "Innocence: Ghost in the Shell 2", but there was an article at the bottom of the page referring to "Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence". Can't they make their minds up? (Also, poster) -- makomk 08:13, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Well, then I don't see any reason that we use unofficial name while there is one indisputed official title. (I mean, in some cases, there are more then one official titlte and this is probably not the case for this movie.) -- Taku 17:28, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)


 * Both the video itself and the film site just give &#12452;&#12494;&#12475;&#12531;&#12473; it might be worth mentioning. The sub/sur title is just clarifying the relationship and disambiguation. --zippedmartin 21:26, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The correct name would be Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence, would it not? That's how movie titles work ... main title number: subtitle. I think the whole "Innocence: Ghost in the Shell 2" thing is just a mistranslation that, for whatever reason, is still around. --Cyde Weys talkcontribs 12:28, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * If no comments are received within a little while I shall be bold and effect the changes. --Cyde Weys talkcontribs 18:44, 21 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I support the change, for what it's worth. Anville 22:20, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
 * official page says Innocence ... GITS2 came later  as  a promotional title for the US market ... but if you really feel it is better so do it  ;-) --Neuromancien 07:18, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

The official title of the movie IS Innocence:Ghost in the Shell. This is the title on original press materials, and the title the film was entered into the Cannes Film Festival under. The confusion about the title started when Dreamworks decided to rename the movie Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence for its release in the USA. The title should be changed back to Innocence: Ghost in the Shell for the Wikipedia page, as that is the film's original English title.

Third Law of Robotics
I changed what the article said about the movie literally quoting Isaac Asimov's Third Law of Robotics. I don't know Japanese nearly well enough to tell how close the translation was, but the subtitles on my copy say that "Moral Code #3" is "Maintain existence without harming humans." Allowing for variations in translation, English to Japanese and back again, this still sounds like it leaves out a chunk of the Law, i.e., obeying the orders of human beings. It's a clear reference, all right, but not a literal quotation.

Babelfish humor:


 * English: A robot must protect its own existence, as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
 * Japanese: ロボットはそのような保護が最初または第2 法律と対立しない限り自身の存在を保護しなければならない.
 * Back into English: If as for the robot that kind of protection is not opposed first or 2nd law, you must protect itself existence.

The Japanese Wikipedia article on the Three Laws translates the Third Law as "ロボットは、前掲第一条および第二条に反するおそれのないかぎり、自己をまもらなければならない. ". (They provide the original English phrasing too.)  Running this back through Babelfish produces "If as for the robot, the aforementioned Ichijo or there is no possibility of opposing to second provision, oneself must be protected."

And gosh, don't I feel cyberpunk scrolling past pages of kana! If only I could make them show up green on a black background.... Anville 11:25, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Please extend the plot summary
I know it is only suppossed to be a summary, but the film is quite complicated and I would like to really get to understand it. For one, why and who hacked Batusa? What is the relation between the hacker Kim and Locus? Why did the dolls in the end also attack the security guards?Cgonzalezdelhoyo 04:48, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I second that. The plot summary way to short, please expand it. -yongke, 20 Aug 2006


 * ¡¡¡SPOILERS AHEAD!!! Batou is hacked by Locus Solus in order to take him away from the case. Kim worked for Locus Solus. The dolls attack the security guards because they were programmed to revolt if there was an attempt to invade the boat, in order to call attention from the world outside.Necrotranson 19:57, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

DVD Controversy
"After receiving numerous complaints, DreamWorks released a statement saying that unsatisfied customers could exchange their DVDs for properly subtitled ones, postage paid; and that version 4 already had the proper subtitling."

The link takes you to an error page. And I don't know what version Amazon is selling (I can't find that on the box or disc), but it still has only the closed caption option.


 * Somebody told me that the version number is on the spine of the DVD case...is this true? Willbyr (talk | contribs) 04:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe, maybe not. I've personally seen it on the security sticker across the top edge of the case, though it may be different in your region. &mdash; NRen2k5 09:14, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Just wanted to let you guys know, the V4 DVD in fact does not have proper subtitles. I saw a copy of the movie with "V4" on the label at a local shop, and got them to pop it in their DVD player. It had the same closed captioning and lack of proper subtitles as the original pressing which I had also bought. I'm ticked about paying good money for such a crappy version of the movie, but boy am I ever glad I didn't pay for it twice. &mdash; NRen2k5 09:14, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

English cast discrepancies?
I see that Kenneth Colley is noted as the voice actor for Aramaki. Without checking the others, I know this to be incorrect since IMDB lists the voice actor as William Knight. See http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0292823/. Before I edit the article I wanted to check whether there are differences in the English cast between the 2004 and 2006 releases? Coldmachine 21:50, 10 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Since there's been no objections I have edited the article accordingly. Coldmachine 12:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Michael McCarty is the English voice actor for Ishikawa, not Nicholas Smith. This is an obvious error. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Howen633 (talk • contribs) 17:01, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

English
There's an english version!? Damn! The version I bought only has japanese audio. Monksbane 5:43, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Innocence Ghost In The Shell Poster.jpg
Image:Innocence Ghost In The Shell Poster.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 17:10, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:LocusSolus.JPG
Image:LocusSolus.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 13:23, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Follow Me
The song was performed in early eighties by Demis Roussos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9YleiapnDo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.230.212.37 (talk) 19:33, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Wow, thanks for the info! This first version (and the live recordings one can find on the net) is actually quite good. Din Ycae (talk) 23:31, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

broken links in text
There are a lot of externally linked references in the text which are now broken, they should be updated or removed. Akriasas (talk) 23:40, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Story
The Story section needs a major overhaul. It’s written from the POV of someone who’s already watched the whole movie and describes how things happened in ways that the characters and viewer don’t know at the time. I realize Wikipedia probably doesn’t have any policy against spoilers, but describing the plot in this way totally undersells the criminal / film noir elements of the movie. — NRen2k5 (TALK), 18:06, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The plot summary needs to be written to objectively and succinctly cover all major plot points in the film, including the ending, per WP:SPOILER (which explicitly states that spoilers are not to be avoided). However, it sounds like there could be issues with personal synthesis/original research, which would require a rewrite of the summary anyways. Feel free to rewrite it if you'd like to; I'm no good with (re)writing plot summaries. =) ···「 ダイノ ガイ 千？！ 」? · Talk to Dinoguy1000 21:04, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Removals
The Literary References addition was removed because most of those are already mentioned in "Allusions and references."

"The animation features a motif of figurative deformation of scenery — especially the massive cathedral-like Locus Solus building in the Northern Territories (Kurile Islands) and the Chinese parade, which will stay as one of the most amazing scenes in recent memory. Although the style is quite realistic and detailed, it mixes in startling distortions."

I've checked the official site and I've found nothing. Also "stay as one of the most amazing scenes in recent memory" is completely POV. You cannot prove if something is amazing or not; the adjective is inherently POV.--Lavenderx (talk) 23:20, 20 July 2009 (UTC)


 * 2004-2009 ... Everything is dying ... like tears in rain ... check May 2004 Page history like & japanese links

For example http://www.adobe.com/jp/motion/features/innocence/page2.html is not (yet) dead but lot of english translated pages are dead now ... day after day you just lose the spirit of Innocence ! Each man kills the things he loves... yeah I know I do... Videos from Cannes ( Highlights May 20th 2004, Steps : Innocence, Interview / Photo Call, Press conference... ) are gone ( at least for you ) like Kurile Islands mentions from the makers etc ... LEARN TO SEARCH - SEARCH TO LEARN... things like http://anime.about.com/library/weekly/bl_makingof.htm... traces, memories, interviews, making-off... "Distinguishing the virtual from the real is a major error on the part of human beings. To me, the birth and death of a human being is already a virtual event," the 52-year-old director told a news conference on 2004 Cannes Film Festival. "I think that accepting that what we are seeing is not real will open the doors of truth for mankind" he added.

The beautiful meditation of Mamoru Oshii resides however in this paradoxical requirement.

"The film is set in the future, but it's looking at present-day society. And as I said, there's an autobiographical element as well. I'm looking back at some of the things I liked as a child -- the 1950's cars and so on. Basically, I wanted to create a different world -- not a future world."

"Innocence was lost and conscience was born" ( Adam and Eve - Genesis )

Videos from Cannes ( Highlights May 20th 2004, Steps : Innocence, Interview / Photo Call, Press conference, Trailer )


 * Extracts of Dialogues

Life and death come and go like marionettes dancing on a table. Once their strings are cut, they easily crumble.

Why are humans so obsessed with recreating themselves?

Let one walk alone, committing no sin, with few wishes, like an elephant in the forest.


 * Mamoru Oshii on his intentions:

"I'm happier if 10,000 people see the film 10 times each than if 1 million people see it once. I'm not making it for the general public, but for a core group of fans -- I hope it will make a big impression on them. If I can do that, I'm happy."


 * (The Japan Times: March 17, 2004 full interview)

"This movie does not hold the view that the world revolves around the human race. Instead it concludes that all forms of life – humans, animals and robots – are equal. In this day and age when everything is uncertain, we should all think about what to value in life and how to coexist with others."


 * This is a key quotation. Look at http://anime.about.com/library/weekly/bl_inspiration.htm for inspiration. God! you made this article so dull by removing so many things... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.126.138.155 (talk) 13:55, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

old almost dead (?) External Links

 * IMDb entry
 * Official Website (japanese)
 * The English-language website for Ghost in the Shell 2 - Innocence
 * Production IG's Innocence website
 * Smart review by midnight eye
 * Another good review with spoiler
 * Beyond Anime - A Brief Guide to Experimental Japanese Animation
 * Innocence-Anime's Vision of the Ultimate City of the Future (japanese article with an english translation)
 * The title Innocence is a reference to pop figure Shigesato Itoi's webpage, www.1101.com
 * Video effects screens from Adobe

others related sources:


 * Dolls of Hans Bellmer
 * Bellmer paintings
 * Magazine ( in french pdf format ) with big pictures of Innocence
 * ( from http://www.ifdiffusion.com/cannes2004.html )


 * Quotes of Innocence in japanese
 * Innocence FAQ in japanese

Peace ;-)

Harraway character
According to my readings, Harraway character would rather be a salute to Donna Harrawa than to asimov novel.

Donna Haraway is a feminist scholar who is famous for her cyborg manifesto. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donna_Haraway#.22A_Cyborg_Manifesto.22

My source :

Manifeste cyborg et autres essais : sciences, fictions, féminismes * Auteur: Donna Jeanne Haraway * Sujets: Femme ; Féminisme ; Patriarcat ; Race * Titres liés: Collections : Essais * Éditeur: Paris : Exils * Date: 2007 * Description: 333 p. : ill. ; 2007.   * Identifiant: ISBN 9782912969637 * Langue: Français on page 21

Unfortunately the point is being made in the french edition preface. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.89.253.194 (talk) 03:24, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

English Dub Cast
Since there are two separate English dubs - one by Manga and one by Bandai - with different actors for minor parts, I'm thinking the English Dub Cast section should be changed somehow to reflect both casts. Gatotsu911 (talk) 23:44, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree, but if we could trim the list down so that the section doesn't expand too much.--Aichik (talk) 13:59, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Soundtrack
Can we please leave the soundtrack section on this page? I don't see why it should be deleted. NewYorkStyledCheesecakes! (talk) 07:52, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

it's not deleted, it's already in the Music of Ghost in the Shell. there's no reason why we need to keep it here, it gives unnecessary weight to the article. I suspect the motive for it staying is due to the images. similar to the TachikomaBread Ninja (talk) 08:08, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

moving novel here
I think we should move the novel here, what do u guys think??? the article doesn't even pass the general notability guideline.Bread Ninja (talk) 19:47, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * ✅ It's there.--Aichik (talk) 14:10, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Reference to Hans Bellmer
The statement "The female dolls are based on the art of Hans Bellmer, who is the pioneer of ball-jointed dolls." is not validated by any citations. Although the influence is undeniable, the attribution of Hans Bellmer as "the pioneer of ball-jointed dolls" is blatantly untrue. Bellmer was continuing a long tradition of automatons and ball-jointed figures with his creations. If no one changes this, I would be glad to. Two sources on the topic: Brown, Steven T. 2010. "Machinic Desires: Hans Bellmer's Dolls and the Technological Uncanny in Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence". Mechademia. 3, no. 1: 222-253. http://anime.about.com/library/weekly/bl_inspiration.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by MNicolou (talk • contribs) 00:13, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Reviews
Yup. Another list.


 * San Fransisco Chronicle review
 * Chicago Reader
 * empire online

Just 3.Lucia Black (talk) 05:22, 3 November 2012 (UTC)