Talk:Giacomo dalla Torre del Tempio di Sanguinetto/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Reviewer: Amitchell125 (talk · contribs) 14:26, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Happy to review this article.

Lead section

 * I don't think it's necessary for the full title of a Grand Master to be given in the lead.
 * Agreed – removed. —Bloom6132 (talk) 21:39, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The lead needs to include more of the work he did as Grand Master, as stated in the main body.
 * Happy to leave the lead as it is, considering the overall length of the article. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:00, 3 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Link Christian archeology (Biblical archaeology); art history; classical Greek (Ancient Greek).
 * Done. —Bloom6132 (talk) 07:57, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The last sentence is not particularly suitable for an encyclopedia article, unless it illustrates a point.
 * It's to illustrate how he himself has a "strong affiliation" with the Vatican (mentioned earlier in the first sentence of the section). —Bloom6132 (talk) 07:57, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The point it illustrates needs to be included, to make the sentence appear less trivial than it is at present. Amitchell125 (talk) 10:03, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I've moved the sentence into the first paragraph, where it is more relevant to the theme of his family and him being close to the Vatican, but won't elaborate on "strong affiliation" due to WP:SYNTHESIS (all the source says is that he "worked inside the Vatican and has a good relationship with the Pope"). I'm certain the reader will be able to draw that conclusion. —Bloom6132 (talk) 23:18, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * He was also a musical enthusiast, particularly for Italian opera. Ref 10 doesn't state this. Also the statement appears not to relate to this period of his life, and so be moved out of this section.
 * That's how I interpreted the quote by Leslie in ref 10, "But his great passion was music, about which he was very knowledgeable." And the part about Italian opera is covered by ref 9 (Times of Malta). —Bloom6132 (talk) 07:57, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, looking at it again I agree with you. However, I tried to access Ref 9—the web.archive.org doesn't appear to work, but the original link does. Can you open both?
 * The archive link does not open on Firefox (says "Secure Connection Failed"), but I am able to open it on Safari. At the moment, none of the web.archive.org is working on Firefox for me. —Bloom6132 (talk) 23:18, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * In the second paragraph, only the first sentence is clearly connected in any way with his youth, the rest might be (apart from the cat bit), but it is about the personal interests and expertise he developed later in his life—to be put in a new section? Amitchell125 (talk) 10:20, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Might be a little WP:UNDUE to give a separate section to five sentences (now that I've removed the cat sentence). —Bloom6132 (talk) 23:18, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * OK, how about amending the title to something like 'Family and personal life'? Little of his early life is known, and the amended title allows later pursuits to be mentioned in the section. Amitchell125 (talk) 11:43, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * You're right – amended. Thanks for the recommendation! —Bloom6132 (talk) 11:45, 1 June 2020 (UTC)


 * I notice that this sub-section (and the first paragraph of the next one) only discusses elections, memberships and positions held. Nothing appears to be mentioned of any accomplishments of notable events in his life, from 1985 to 2018. If this is the case, would it be mentioning what he career entailed during this period, or simply saying that sources do not provide any details?
 * I've added how he "quickly rose through ranks", but other than that, nothing much is said about in the sources about what he did during that time. My hunch is that the vows he took would mean a different lifestyle for him (i.e. not focused on attaining "worldly" accomplishments).  Hence, the lack of info in the sources regarding his life from 1985 to 2018.  I'm afraid the two publications in the second-last section (from 2003 and 2013) will have to do as for his accomplishments during this time. —Bloom6132 (talk) 11:04, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Agreed, though it find it interesting that little can be told of him for a period of time that would be for many encompass a whole career. Thanks for what you've added. Amitchell125 (talk) 13:33, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Ref 15 (https://www.ordinedimaltaitalia.org/) appears to lead to a general page for the Order.
 * Yeah, the link is dead. Fortunately, I was able to find and add an archive link of the article. —Bloom6132 (talk) 23:18, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Refs 13 (Telegraph) (and 19 in the next section (Sunday Times)) are subscription websites - consider adding templates.
 * Added. —Bloom6132 (talk) 07:57, 31 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Albrecht von Boeselager comes from the German version of Wikipedia, which need to be noted.
 * I'm not aware of any policy which says that a foreign version of Wikipedia needs to be noted if it's merely being used as a wikilink. —Bloom6132 (talk) 23:38, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh, problem solved! There actually is an English-language article on von Boeselager.  I'm guessing that section was written before May 2018 (when the article was created from a redirect)—Bloom6132 (talk) 11:54, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Link condoms; Motu proprio; de facto (which should not be in italics).
 * Linked and un-italicized. —Bloom6132 (talk) 11:56, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Vatican is not linked, but other nations are. Germany and Russia shouldn't be linked, and I would consider unlinking the other countries as well (MOS:OL).
 * Unlinked all EU countries and Russia, since they clearly fall under "major examples of countries". I've kept the other ones, though – hope you're fine with that. —Bloom6132 (talk) 23:38, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * That's fine now. Amitchell125 (talk) 11:33, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * ...he stopped by … - can be edited out, as saying that he visited the facilities is sufficient here.
 * I purposely used "stopped by" instead of visited because the latter is used in the source (would violate WP:PARAPHRASE because it does not fall under WP:LIMITED). —Bloom6132 (talk) 23:38, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry, didn't make myself clear here, I would amend ..., he stopped by the healthcare facilities run by the SMOM and paid a visit to its staff and patients. to something like '..., he visited the healthcare facilities run by the SMOM, where he met staff and patients.'. Imo stopped by has too casual an air to it, similar to dropped by, whereas his visit would have been thoroughly planned beforehand. Amitchell125 (talk) 11:32, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Fixed. —Bloom6132 (talk) 16:11, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The last sentence could perhaps be put in a new paragraph underneath.
 * Agreed – done. I've also split the first sentence into two – hope that's alright. —Bloom6132 (talk) 23:41, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * From Ref 2 (Telegraph) - "one of the few eligible candidates", "a deeply pious and exemplary Knight of Malta", "a simple character utterly in the hands of the 'German faction'", "at the time of his death the constitutional question had still not been resolved" are I think all comments worth including in the text in some way.
 * I'm afraid that would, in my opinion, go against WP:NPOV (especially the third, more negative, comment about him being "a simply character"). I'm not surprised that would come from a British newspaper (and notice how the author of the Telegraph obit. remains anonymous).  His predecessor who was forced out, Matthew Festing, is British.  Even if the author is sufficiently removed from the Order, I wouldn't put it past them their desire to defend their compatriot (who, being on the conservative wing of the Order, tried to resist the more liberal 'German faction'). —Bloom6132 (talk) 11:44, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I generally agree with you, and I'll leave it up to you. Amitchell125 (talk) 12:14, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I've added the information from the first comment, since it's the most useful and pertinent to him.  It now reads "He was the early favourite to secure the post, having been one of a small number of candidates qualified for it."  Hope that's fine with you. —Bloom6132 (talk) 10:47, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
 * ...and institutional changes were in the process of being rolled out. - I can't see where Ref 10 (CNA) or Ref 24 (Reuters) state this.
 * CNA ref – "… after serving one year as the interim grand master amid the order’s ongoing reform." and "The death of the Order of Malta’s Grand Master comes as the organization continues its reform." (granted, that is the very last sentence of the article, so no shame in not spotting it) —Bloom6132 (talk) 13:05, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Reuters source – "After the Burke faction lost an internal power struggle, Dalla Torre reconciled the group with the Vatican and began a process of reform." —Bloom6132 (talk) 13:05, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Amitchell125 (talk) 12:27, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
 * ...as Benin (January 2019), Cameroon (July 2019),… - I would move ref 17 (FEM) to the end of the sentence, as ref 10 (CNA) seems at present only to refer to the last part of it.
 * Done. —Bloom6132 (talk) 10:36, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Ref 11 (Tablet) refers to "The professed knights make up around 60 of the 13,500 knights and dames worldwide. ...they currently hold more than half of the positions on the knights’ board of governance." I think this information is relevant for the article, what do you think?
 * Agreed. Not sure where to place it though.  I'm thinking of either before or after the sentence "These proposed changes were viewed as a bid …" —Bloom6132 (talk) 13:05, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Maybe, or possibly following after the first sentence of the 'Knight' section. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:41, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Done. —Bloom6132 (talk) 10:36, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
 * ...in front of Giovanni Angelo Becciu – the Pope's special delegate to the Order –… - the importance of this (if there is any) needs clarification.
 * He's the prelate who is later his funeral celebrant. But other than that, no special importance of this. —Bloom6132 (talk) 16:11, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * In which I would consider this as unnecessary detail and take it out. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:43, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Removed, and transferred the wikilink to the section about his death. —Bloom6132 (talk) 10:36, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This took place three months after the resignation of Fra' Matthew Festing as Prince and Grand Master. I don't think that three citations are needed for this sentence (WP:OVERCITE).
 * Ditto the three citations for his full title.
 * OK, removed the book source. —Bloom6132 (talk) 16:11, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Ref 23 (NYT) is no longer available.
 * Added archive link of the article. —Bloom6132 (talk) 22:31, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * ...to swiftly repair… - to avoid this appearing to an editorial comment, it needs to be stated who said swiftly.
 * Added that it was the Associated Press that stated this. —Bloom6132 (talk) 10:24, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Ref 25 (BCC) - the link to the Wayback Machine is no longer available.
 * I've had problems archiving that site (always redirects me to an error page). If it suffers link rot in the future, I'll just replace it with the CNA source by Mares (which is archived and is the source of most of the info in The B.C. Catholic article). —Bloom6132 (talk) 10:17, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Dalla Torre does not seem to be mentioned in Ref 31 (OMAA).
 * I only included it to reference the fact that the Order runs a pilgrimage to Lourdes. Refs 10 and 30 (at the end of the sentence) cover all three pilgrimage locations.  I'll remove it if you don't think it's inclusion is helpful. —Bloom6132 (talk) 18:50, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * It doesn't verify the text, so can't be used here. Amitchell125 (talk) 10:28, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Removed. —Bloom6132 (talk) 10:24, 2 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Link throat cancer.
 * Done. —Bloom6132 (talk) 07:57, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Until then, Grand Commander Ruy Gonçalo do Valle Peixoto de Villas Boas will serve… - I would amend this to 'Grand Commander Ruy Gonçalo was appointed Valle Peixoto de Villas Boas…'.
 * Changed (but reworded slightly). —Bloom6132 (talk) 10:04, 2 June 2020 (UTC)


 * The first publication ("La biblioteca...") is available online here (login required). Consider adding the url.
 * I think that's a review of the book (according to WorldCat, not a journal as was originally stated). I've fixed the citation and added an ISBN. —Bloom6132 (talk) 10:00, 2 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Ref 35 (Duke of Castro) doesn't seem to mention dalla Torre's honour.
 * … congratulations to Fra’ Giacomo Dalla Torre del Tempio di Sanguinetto, Bailiff, Knight Grand Cross of Justice of our Order, who was elected the 80th Grand Master of the Sovereign Order of Malta. "Our Order" meaning the Sacred Military Constantinian Order of Saint George (House of Bourbon-Two Sicilies). —Bloom6132 (talk) 18:45, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, missed that. Amitchell125 (talk) 10:32, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Just wanted to ask your opinion on this – should I remove the last honour listed (i.e. Grand Cross of the Order of Stara Planina)? It was added after I had nominated this for GA, and I'm not really comfortable using YouTube as a source (especially when it's from the official channel of the Order). —Bloom6132 (talk) 21:37, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I checked for the policy on YouTube as a source, and it's OK if the clip comes from an official source, which in this case it does. The citation could be amended to make it "". Amitchell125 (talk) 22:00, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Amended. Thanks for giving me the format! —Bloom6132 (talk) 22:21, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

On hold
I'm placing the article on hold for a week, until 7 June. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:05, 30 May 2020 (UTC)