Talk:Gideon Levy/Archive 4

Israel Apologizes To Journalist
This incident from 2002 may be worth including.  Sean.hoyland  - talk 16:54, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

An article in the New Yorker...
...about Haaretz from about a year ago, The Dissenters, covers Levy in some detail. It could be a useful source.  Sean.hoyland  - talk 11:28, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Levy on vandalism of this article
Levy discusses vandalism and a BLP violation of this article: In a Web of lies, the newspaper must live, Haaretz 11 October 2012. I can't locate the entry he is referring to. RolandR (talk) 10:19, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
 * If there was any such claim, it must have appeared in the Hebrew article - not this one.--Geewhiz (talk) 10:28, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
 * That's right, Gila. There seems to have been a mini edit-war in the Hebrew article over this during 5-8 July. Doesn't seem to have impacted here. RolandR (talk) 10:56, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Can't get around the paywall. Any chance you could let me see the article or at least quote the relevant passage? Dlv999 (talk) 10:30, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
 * You might want to alert the people who edit pages on Wikipedia, significant press coverage they may have missed. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:33, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Have just realized, if you register, Haaretz kindly allow you to view up to 10 articles a month for nothing. Dlv999 (talk) 10:37, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The article covers claims made on Wikipedia against Levy's father: "Wikipedia had published, for one day apparently, information planted there, that my father, Dr. Heinz Levy, had collaborated with the Nazis". --Frederico1234 (talk) 10:38, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I think perhaps Geewhiz is correct in saying that the claims appeared on the Hebrew Wikipedia not the English one. Levy's article does not specify either way. Dlv999 (talk) 10:53, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Questionable reference?
The entry opens by characterizing Levi as "A notable journalist on the Israeli left", referencing a (Hebrew) article written by Levi himself! If the only source that Levi is notable journalist is his own admission/boasting, I think the adjective "notable" should be removed. --PloniAlmoni (talk) 07:38, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The Levy source is there for "left", not "notable". You dont think Levy is notable? He hasnt been noted?  nableezy  - 07:41, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that he is indeed "notable" but I do not think it is legitimate to cite his own article as a reference for that. I think it is better to have no reference than the current reference (which, being in Hebrew, is not accessible to most readers).--PloniAlmoni (talk) 12:07, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Public figures cancelled subscriptions to Haaretz
The reference for "Other public figures also cancelled their subscriptions, including Roni Daniel, the military and security correspondent for Israeli Channel 2" is something in Yediot Aharonot without a link. That article does not seem to show up in a search of ynet.co.il. This factoid does not appear in the Hebrew Wikipedia article. Unless we can find an online source for public figures cancelling their subscriptions, perhaps we should just go with the fact that there were cancellations, sourced to existing references in The Nation and Der Spiegel. —Anomalocaris (talk) 16:03, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Reason for deletion of new "Allegations of racism" section
This new section added by is unacceptable for the following reasons. Zerotalk 04:26, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
 * It is based on a phoney quotation. Levy did not write that Israelis who had immigrated from Russia "have a degree of alcohol and crime in their blood". His article is aimed at racism against the African refugees and he argues that the bad behavior of some members of a group is not a reason to condemn the whole group.  He gives as an example the Russian immigrants "some of whom were also found to have a degree of alcohol and crime in their blood"; i.e. he is saying that the alcholism and criminality of some Russians is not reason to condemn all of them.  It is an anti-racist argument, nothing at all like it seems when the context and the words "some of whom" are removed.
 * Of course it was to be expected that some Russian political circles would seize on these words to attack Levy, but that doesn't mean we have to copy them. The reliability of IzRus on this issue is not hard to check: look at this cited article which purports to quote Levy. From a colleague who is Russian, the "quotation" reads: "A million immigrants from Russia, nearly a third of them not Jews, in the blood of which was found some mixture of alcohol and crime.." They have doctored Levy's words by removing the phrase "some of them", thereby changing the meaning completely.  Not only that, but the writer's motivation is made clear: the writer thinks the African refugees are "a source of crime and a threat to the Jewish character of the country". Should we cite an author who makes racist statements while lying about Levy's statement as evidence that Levy is racist?  Obviously not.
 * No attempt at balance is visible in the section. The paragraph would be unacceptable even in ordinary articles, but under the stricter rules of WP:BLP it is in the "shoot on sight" category.


 * Some allegations have been made by extremely important figures (government ministers, the head of NGOs, etc). Whether you agree with them or not, they are extremely notable and the role of wikipedia is to convey information that is notable - that such allegations have been made by notable figures - and published. It's not wikipedia's role to judge whether the particular allegations are 'fair' or 'balanced' ('Verifiability not truth'). We are simply reporting that allegations were made, including by a cabinet minister. If you want to balance the section (which is a good idea), then feel free to find other statements on this subject, that offer 'balance'. Wanting to delete the fact that those allegations were made, does no favor to the readers, since it is simply a fact (a notable one) that the public allegations (including by a Minister of the Cabinet of the country in which he lives) have been made and we as editors are reporting that fact. The source IzRus is being used for some of those quotes, not for his own quote. And even then, on that basis, you can only delete a sentence supported by that source, not a whole section supported by many other sources.


 * The claim that the article is anti-racist is not relevant to whether the allegations should be reported. We have a subsequent article published in Haaretz, from the head of an anti-Racist NGO, arguing (alleging) that the article is racist. This is published in Haaretz (Levy's own paper). So it a source which is considered both reliable and notable for plenty of other sections in this wikipedia page. Avaya1 (talk) 04:30, 14 April 2015 (UTC)


 * You misrepresented the original source in your first sentence. You aren't allowed to do that, even if you can cite other people doing so. What Levy actually said is right there in Haaretz and there is no excuse for not reporting it correctly.  Then you cited a Russian newspaper that blatantly lied about it. The fact that they lied about it, which everyone can easily verify,  proves they are not a reliable source. For that reason they can't be trusted to report some video fairly either.  Yes, controversies can be mentioned in BLP articles, but what we don't do is repeat lies.  We also look for some alternative opinions to balance it. Where in your text is Levy's reply to the charges?  It is easy to find.  Instead you dumped into the article every attack on Levy that you could find and no contrary opinion. It was an appalling example of bad editing. Zerotalk 10:55, 14 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes it needs more context, but the section was just a description of the allegations that were made. The allegations themselves may or may not be lies, but they are made by notable people and worthy of inclusion. Note that Levy's original statement touches all the sore-spots. He mentions alcohol and crime. Also the extended quote makes it more controversial (for example, claiming that a million immigrants came from Russia; when they came from the across the FSU - Azerbaijan is hardly Russia). Or claiming that a third are non-Jews (only according to Orthodox Halacha). So we should also quote the allegations and his reply to them. And Yoel Razvozov and Faina Kirschenbaum are important figures in the country so we should include them. Avaya1 (talk) 13:43, 14 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Do you really mean that "which included the comment that Israelis who had immigrated from Russia 'have a degree of alcohol and crime in their blood'" is just a description of the allegations? Don't you see that the word "some" is missing from this description? You also added several attacks you could find, including from "Arab Israeli lawyer Nidal Othman, head of anti-racist NGO Mossawa Center", but did not even bother to add some response to it.


 * Who think those two points made it "more controversial"? You or are there sources for that? It sounds odd to me because there are tons of people, including Israeli officials, who describe it just as "Russian Jews" immigrating, though of course not all of them were from there. --IRISZOOM (talk) 16:30, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Defamatory edit?
On Dec 18,2012 I added the text "In 2012 Levy was voted as the recipient of the 2012 Dishonest Reporting Award on the pro-Israel web site HonestReporting.com", citing the web site as a reference. The revision was undone by | user Roland R, who tagged my edit as an "Unreliable source for defamatory edit". I fail to see how the site in question is an unrealible source. RolandR may not agree with the site's politics (disclaimer: I have no connection with the site, its owners or its editors) but the fact that its readers voted Levy the 2012 Dishonest Reporting Award is a fact that merits mention in the entry.--PloniAlmoni (talk) 07:29, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * No, it is not a fact that merits mention in the entry. This is an encyclopedia article, a biography, not a dumping ground for any group's antipathy for Levy. This article is based on reliable sources, and HonestReporting (hah) isnt that.  nableezy  - 07:40, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I see. Your argument why Honest Reporting is not reliable is hah. Can it be that Honest Reprting is less "reliable" than the Leipziger Medienstiftung, the Anna Lindh Foundation or the Next Century Foundation because its agenda is pro-Israeli? If it is legitimate to cite awards from organizations with anti-Israeli agendas, it must be legitimate to cite awards from organizations with pro-Israeli agendas! Or doesn't fairness and intellectual honesty count when we are referring to the Arab-Israeli conflict?--PloniAlmoni (talk) 12:23, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Why is this discussion even taking place? Hath we crossed the bounds of desiring neutrality to such extent that we feel such references viable? By the insanity that this page suggests should I create a site: PloniAluminiIsFullOfShit.com and give you a bogus award on it? HonestReporting displays its partisan intent quite clearly on the front page and to suggest it source-worthy is terrifically disingenuous. If there are other references from other obviously partisan sites then I suggest you fight their inclusion. No reason to vomit on your kitchen floor to make up for the vomit in the lounge, a better idea would be to clean them both --Tpyo (talk) 12:12, 30 September 2013 (UTC).

"HonestReporting (hah)" - it is only about 10,000,000 times more honest than the BBC, NYT or clowns like you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.240.56.74 (talk) 21:06, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120531143449/http://www.haaretz.com/news/news-in-brief/news-in-brief-1.390336 to http://www.haaretz.com/news/news-in-brief/news-in-brief-1.390336

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Split 'Praise and criticism' section
I've split the section into two. He is highly regarded by some and even hated by others. That should come across in the article. D aniDi n 16:20, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

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External links modified
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 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20081002161855/http://www.idi.org.il:80/hebrew/article.asp?id=182 to http://www.idi.org.il/hebrew/article.asp?id=182

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Introductory paragraph: remove the "praised and hated" sentence
In the introductory paragraph, I don't think this sentence is necessary:

"A notable journalist on the Israeli left,[1] Levy has been characterized as a "heroic journalist" by some,[2] by others as a "propagandist for the Hamas".[3]"

One could imagine writing something like this for virtually anyone in political/journalistic affairs. I'm not sure it is very useful for readers. This sentence belongs in the section which gives context for this praise and criticism.

"Albert Schweitzer. Praised as the greatest humanitarian by some, criticized as a paternalistic racist by others." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.88.82.18 (talk) 16:13, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

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