Talk:Gift (ice show)

Previous top skaters and public shows
It might be interesting to have some added comments about the history of successfull skaters who turn to public performances, such as Sonya H. and John Curry from Britain who even performed his show on Broadway. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:38, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I plan to create an article about the history and development of professional skating, both pro competitions and ice shows, and also the regulations regarding eligibility for ISU-sanctioned events before and after turning pro. I think, your idea would fit there best. I expect Hanyu to produce 20 to 30 different ice shows in the course of his pro career (if not more). So we have to be brief with the summaries of single shows. It is very difficult to predict the next 10 years; this article may need to be trimmed or split in the future, but I thought it's best to leave the details for the time being (it's always easier to remove content than adding it retrospectively).
 * I want to complete Hanyu's article series first and prepare it for Gift and the Notte Stellata project, which is expected to be held on March 11, 2023, a commemoration event of the 2011 Tohoku earthquake and tsunami. Then I will tackle the pro skating article. Do you agree with that approach?
 * Note: Thank you very much for your changes. I hope, the article is fine so far? Best wishes Henni147 (talk) 14:15, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Since the transition to his pro career is an on-going activity which you state can go for decades, then it seems that the Hanyu biography article promotion can be moved up in the planning schedule. Maybe in the springtime. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:04, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, my goal is to prepare the two new sub-articles for the move to the mainspace, maybe request a review for the program/publication list, and then focus on the main biography. That one should have priority. Henni147 (talk) 16:10, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
 * If you are planning to add those two sibling articles back into the main Hanyu biography article, then its important to note that the main bio article is already at 250Kb in size; that was fine for GAN though it may cause concerns at FAC for further promotion. Even if you expand the coverage in the bio article to include the sibling article, then the article may still need to be trimmed back to somewhere under 200Kb in size. Separately, I'll ask if you are pleased with with personal life section, meaning that he is now done with the Olympics and he appears to have to relationships of any kind; he apparently did flirt with one of the Russian skaters years ago at one of the competition, and he has spoken well of Johnny Weir of many occasions; is anything know about his personal life or is he like another John Singer Sargent who never married and seems to live in solitude during his life. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:31, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

No, no. I don't plan to merge the new sub-articles with the bios at all. I just moved them from the draft to the main space and created the required links. That's all. My plan is to trim the main bios to ca. 45-50 kB readable prose, so that we have enough space left for the summary of the next decades. Hanyu hinted that he plans to skate as a professional until the age of 40 at least. Maybe even longer, depending on the situation.


 * 1) Go through the current prose parts of Hanyu's bios and do some clean-up (especially in the career summary).
 * 2) Split the "skating technique" section into sub-sections and add paragraphs about his skating philosophy and conflicts (regarding competition rules and the latest developments in the sport), and his innovations as an ice show producer. In my opinion, these are the most fundamental infos about Hanyu that underline his key role in the modern landscape of figure skating, both as a sport and performing art form.
 * 3) Revamp the "impact" section. Currently, this section is more about his philosophy and contributions rather than his actual impact on the sport and other skaters, on local and global economy/marketing, on people outside figure skating etc. I have prepared proper sources for this section already.
 * 4) Clean up the complete reference section and make it uniform with the rest of the article series. This will be an awful lot of work, but it's definitely necessary. The current article has a wild mix of different citation systems, multiple duplicate or unreliable sources. I will go through them all one by one.

Yeah, that's the to-do list for the next weeks, probably months. I try my best to finish the list as soon as possible, but real-life job has priority. So it may take some time. Henni147 (talk) 16:21, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Nice going on DYK
That was nice going on the DYK here; what's next? GAN for this Ice show article, or progress for the FAC for the Hanyu biography? ErnestKrause (talk) 17:41, 31 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much for keeping up with the project :) The situation here is the following:
 * This ice show article will probably undergo many edits until March 12. Both shows "Gift" and "Notte Stellata" will be happening shortly after another. So my suggestion is to wait until March, when all major edits have been completed, and then nominate for GA or maybe even FA class. I think, the quality standard of this article is good enough to go directly for FA. Note: I will archive the two official websites, when the shows are over and they are no longer subject to change.
 * Regarding the main biography: I am currently doing a full revamp of the article, section by section; proofreading the prose, fixing links, and checking sources (reliability, formatting, archiving etc.) You can follow the progess here: Yuzuru Hanyu biography § Maintenance status of single sections. When I'm finished with all sections, I will give green light for FAC nomination. I will probably need another month to complete everything (maybe two, depending on my job and free time). Henni147 (talk) 18:05, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Continuing discussion about the Hanyu biography here. Its becoming significant for me to mention that the main biography for him is approaching 250KB, which is on the large side of things at Wikipedia. I'm strongly suggesting that some splits of the article be considered, and possibly some trims to the text as well even though they are well researched. Lately, FAC nominations even for Presidents of the USA are given a hard time when they go over 100Kb. The Hanyu article is currently well over 200Kb. ErnestKrause (talk) 22:25, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Don't be worried about the page size. I plan to trim down the article to 45-50 kB readable prose, merging the coaches/choreographers section into the career summary. I also expect to remove about 50-100 superflous sources from the article. In addition, there is another sub-article about Hanyu's figure skating legacy in the making, covering his main contributions (philosophy, technique, and style) and impact, so that we can condense those two sections as well. With these five sub-articles (legacy, Olympic seasons, ice shows, career achievements, and programs/publications), the main biography should be definitely short and unburdened enough to pass the FAC review. I need another month or two to get everything ready for nomination. Henni147 (talk) 07:04, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

FAC nomination
I nominated this ice show sub-article for FA class. If you have the time and capacity to leave comments or invite someone to join the review, that would be really great. Thank you very much in advance. Henni147 (talk) 13:38, 13 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi, I have read the comments you have gotten so far. I think to improve the article, it's better to adapt points or format from articles, such as List of Taylor Swift live performances (especially the lead) and articles on concert, like The Fame Ball Tour and The 1989 World Tour. You can turn them into subsections or not, depends on the length, but I think it's important to have separate and consistent paragraphs of Background, Synopsis, Critical and commercial reception, then followed by the details (set list etc.) for each ice show. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 01:29, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for your suggestions. I will take a closer look at the articles you linked above. Henni147 (talk) 07:18, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm thinking if you might have any thoughts about sending it to GOCE, or possibly taking the GAN approach for this article? ErnestKrause (talk) 20:57, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Everyone, here's my opinion, for what it's worth: I think you should do both! If you don't send it to GOCE, you should ask another editor with at least some familiarity with fs to do a copyedit and then submit it to GAN, which will most likely give you a non-expert reviewer, which is always a good idea. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:50, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I agree with Christine. I went to Peer Review for the Olympics seasons article because I wanted to make sure I nailed the format of the article first. So, perhaps PR or GOCE (if you feel like after the edits, the article can proves its notability) then go to GAN. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 00:58, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you everyone for your suggestions! My plan is now the following:
 * Add the suggested background section at the beginning and compare the article structure with existing show/concert articles like the examples above
 * Submit the article for copy-edit and/or peer review
 * Submit for GAN and if approved, make final adjustments for FAN
 * That might be the best road, even if time-consuming. Hanyu is expected to have more shows in the future, so there might be big changes anyways. Henni147 (talk) 14:07, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The other option might be to take a short break from this article and to switch over to the main article at this time. At 250Kb in size, there is some need to start doing something about the bulking down of the main article for Hanyu. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:17, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I plan to continue with the brush-up of the main biography. The to-do list is long, so I will go through it step-by-step.
 * This weekend, I finally managed to create a template for figure skating program tables: Figure skating program list. This was a very tricky task, but it seems to work flawlessly. Hopefully, it will reduce the page size of skaters' bios a lot (also no more bother with annoying table formatting). Henni147 (talk) 19:45, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Could I ask you to start to install all the additional templates you have planned for the main article, since it is overdue to start the initial trims to the main article for Hanyu which I discussed before with you. Also, any page splits you had in mind should also be started or lined up. The article needs to start bulking down from 250Kb, and I'll have some time to start it during the next week. Let me know how much of it you can split into new sibling articles. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:13, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

The biography article doesn't require any more page splits other than the legacy sub-article, which is already in the making. I will continue the trimming of the biography soon, including the reduction of sources and inline citations (ca. -50 kB). Main points: I have a detailed plan how to get everything done step-by-step, but this needs time and very good organization of the full series. That's why I'd like to ask you to leave the trim-down process to me for now. Things will end up in chaos if we interfere in our edits. When I am finished with all my changes, I will submit the bios for a peer review. This will probably take some more months because I am busy with RL work, and it's a very big project. But since we don't have any urgent deadline, I see no need to rush things here. I want to do this with care and thoroughly, not in a hurry.
 * 1) Trim the three remaining seasons and the pro career section (ca. -2 kB)
 * 2) Remove the coaches/choreographers section (ca. -3.5 kB)
 * 3) Move content from the skating technique and impact sections to the legacy article (ca. -10 kB)
 * 4) Move content from the public life section to the programs/publications list article (create introductory prose sections for the different lists) (ca. -5 kB)

Footnote: I have just completed the brand new templates for the program tables and competitive highlights. It was an insanely difficult markup code, but I eventually figured it out. I will add all new templates to the figure skating project page and manual of style, so that they are available for all editors. Henni147 (talk) 17:01, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Its not looking as if your original outline plan is working as well as everyone was hoping; also the main Hanyu article is ready for moving forward by bulking down its very large size. I'm going to suggest turning attention to the main article as time well spent; and later you can come back to the related sibling articles. 20K-30K of material is not enough to likely satisfy reviewing editors at FAC; the bulking down has to be significantly more than that. Maybe its worth thinking about 70K-80K reduction in total file size; its just too large at present. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:22, 20 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I just trimmed down the competitive highlights section by 3 kB today. If we add the 20 kB prose trim and another 20–30 kB source trim, we are at -50 kB in total, and that's already less total page size than the Olympic seasons sub-article, which got promoted to FA class last year. I see no reason why the plan shouldn't work.
 * It is essential to coordinate the full article series globally. You cannot just skip content on the main biography without a proper plan to add it elsewhere. Hanyu's series is a network of six articles that need to work together as one topic. Naturally, this takes more time in creation than one stand-alone biography. I was very busy the last months with collecting and organizing the mass of new sources about Hanyu's shows. Now we have a break from news flooding until July at least (unless Hanyu is doing something groundbreaking during the SOI/FaOI period). I will take this "free" time to push forward with the main biography now. Henni147 (talk) 14:58, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Just want to say I agree with @Henni147. The part about Hanyu's ice shows so far on his main article can also be shortened into one paragraph (getting read all the "announced", just get straight to when they're held)- Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 01:12, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yep. If we shorten the pro career, skating, public life, and impact sections and remove the coaches/choreographers section, it should be no problem at all. There will be even enough room for future additions. Henni147 (talk) 08:14, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Suggestion for a page split
The latest announcement of Notte Stellata 2024 made me think about a possible page split for this article. In the first FAC review, one of the main issues was the lack of required background information and a proper connection between the single sections. To resolve these issues, my idea is the following: Would you agree about this split? Henni147 (talk) 12:51, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) Let's only focus on Hanyu's solo ice shows in this article, which seem to build one unit production-, concept- and storywise, and move the ensemble shows elsewhere. This makes it much easier to structure the article and write a proper overview/background section. In this case, we may change the current page name to "Yuzuru Hanyu solo ice shows" or something similar.
 * 2) Notte Stellata seems to become an annual event with at least two confirmed editions (2023 and 2024), so I think it makes sense to give it an own article like Dreams on Ice. If you agree, I would volunteer to set up the page and fix all links.
 * 3) For Continues With Wings, I think an own page would be the best solution as well, since it was an ensemble show with multiple notable guest artists, but I'm open for good alternatives.


 * I don't mind your idea of splitting the article based on the points you mentioned and also mainly because it will give us more freedom to add more details and organize the information about the shows in a better way. But my main concern in this is how this will affect the Yuzuru Hanyu article series and how to keep the connection between all the shows Hanyu produced? Apqaria (talk) 00:32, 8 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I think it should be fine. We can link the ensemble shows in the "See also" sections of Yuzu's article series and/or add them to the article series template in the infobox. Plus, the shows are also linked in the prose parts and his detailed program list. What we could also do is to add a short list of Yuzu's own show productions on his main bios like this (either give it a separate section or merge it with the section of the shortened program list):


 * Solo shows
 * Prologue (2022)
 * Gift (2023)
 * Repray Tour (2023–24)


 * Ensemble shows
 * Continues With Wings (2018)
 * Yuzuru Hanyu Notte Stellata (2023–present)


 * It's nothing long, so I think it should be no problem to add it to the main bios. And it would be a very useful overview. What do you think? Henni147 (talk) 09:46, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I actually thought about having such list in the main bio page but was worried if we have enough space there. So I am totally with this idea but I suggest adding to this list, the other shows he only appeared on (not produced) or at least the most known of them and be all in one section instead of having these info scattered in other places like the case of mentioning the Continues with Wings and Fantasy on Ice only mentioned in the Film and television section. Apqaria (talk) 18:06, 9 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Dividing the shows into these categories is a good idea. I also agree that there should be a third category where he is simply one of the performers (FaOI, SOI, DOI etc). His Ice Stories may need a separate section if he continues to write & create more stories in the future. Marika yuzu (talk) 14:00, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for all your suggestions!
 * I agree that it's a good idea to list all shows where Hanyu has participated in. If we have a bundled source that lists all shows of his competitive career, that would be ideal. Citing them individually would quickly blow up the reference section, so we better avoid that if possible.
 * In the prose part, we have to be really brief. The readable prose size of Hanyu's main bios must be reduced from the current 58kB to 40–45kB at max, so that we have enough space for future additions. For that reason, we may only be able to mention his own show productions with the most important records and firsts, and maybe FaOI where he is an official lead cast member. For other shows, I would just add one summary sentence that, during his career, Hanyu has participated in various ensemble ice shows in Japan (some of them being charity events for 3.11.) I fear that we don't have space for more.
 * The reality is that he has simply done too much in 29 years :D Henni147 (talk) 11:56, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Summary of the page split discussion
It has been decided to split the article Ice shows produced by Yuzuru Hanyu into distinct articles for each show, which has the following advantages: The following articles have been newly created: This article here is going to be reduced to Gift (ice show), since the fact that appeared in the DYK-column in February 2023 is related to this event. Henni147 (talk) 20:05, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
 * 1) Each show has its own infobox with the most important information.
 * 2) Distinct lead sections for each show are much easier to handle than a bundled one.
 * 3) Each show can get its own introduction or background section, which makes the articles more accessible to readers who are unfamiliar with the topic.
 * 4) The article for an individual show is much easier to structure and divide into subsections with proper headings.
 * 5) The wording of the article for a single show is less repetitive than the bundled one.
 * 6) The bundled article is at danger to exceed 50 kB readable prose size if Hanyu produces more shows. Articles for single shows are much shorter in lengh and hence friendlier to read and edit.
 * 7) Articles for concluded shows are not expected to change much in content anymore and are easier to improve to high quality status.
 * Continues with Wings
 * Yuzuru Hanyu Notte Stellata
 * Prologue (ice show)
 * Repray Tour