Talk:Gil-galad/Archive 1

Untitled
Is it Gil-galad or Gil-Galad? I am not entirely sure about Elvish (or is it Westron?) capitalization, or the existence thereof. -Itai 14:17, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)
 * If you see how it's published in Tolkien's work, it's Gil-galad. Alcarillo 16:39, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

Reincarnation of Gil-galad
Gil-galad was slain during the Last Alliance and was reincarnated some time in the Third Age. I seem to remember a quote from Tolkien discusing the possible philosophical ramafications of this, can anyone advise where to find this?
 * It sounds like you are thinking of Glorfindel. As far as I know, there is no indication that Gil-galad reappeared in Middle-earth after his death at the end of the Second Age. -[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 14:53, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Wrong
There are several fact errors in this article, first of all: Gil-Galad were son of Fingon son of Fingolfin.


 * Placing Gil-galad as son of Fingon in the published book is an admitted error by Christopher Tolkien, who edited the Silmarillion under high pressure. I advise you to read the Unfinished Tales, and the History of Middle-earth series: also by Christopher Tolkien, but much better researched. J.R.R. Tolkien's final intent was to have Gil-galad be Orodreth's son. Jordi·✆ 21:46, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have read it, and I know about the argument. But when there is so much controversy I find it wrong to joust present one version of the history. This is a long and theoretical discussion that only the hard core of Tolkien fans would enjoy, and therefore unsuited for this article. And therefore I think the version which puts Ereinion Gil-Galad as the son of Fingon is the most appropriate, since this is the most widely accepted theory, and what the widely accepted and well known Silmarillion proclaims as an absolute truth. If you wish, I would be more than happy to take a more in-depth discussion about this. User:Glortelion 19:03, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Have you read this article? The popular theory that Gil-galad (small second 'g' by the way) is Fingon's son is mentioned. Links to why the Wikipedia has taken Christopher Tolkien's later admissions that it was a mistake into account are also provided. Jordi·✆ 22:20, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't entirely follow you when you say "there is so much controversy". The question of Gil-galad's parentage is ambiguous, yes, and if your point is simply that the article shouldn't be quite so firm in claiming that his father was Orodreth you may have a point: Christopher Tolkien makes it clear that his father changed his mind on this point repeatedly, and the existing writings aren't fully consistent with any choice.  But that's not "controversy", that's well understood (and unresolvable) scholarly uncertainty.  What is unambiguously clear from Christopher's comments is that "Gil-galad son of Fingon" isn't even in the running.  Again, this isn't controversy, this is a simple correction by the guy who actually studied the manuscripts and edited the book.  If you'd like to advocate a different "Middle-earth canon" policy than what Wikipedia currently has, feel free to discuss it on that article's talk page.  I think, though, that the community is reasonably happy with what we've got.  (And on another note, of course we don't "just present one version of the history": the whole point of the "Other versions of the legendarium" section is to mention other variants and explain why the article makes the choices it does.)--Steuard 16:49, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

Being Fingon's parentage the most widely accepted 'fact', i think it would be the "official" fact. By now, most authorized resources cite Fingon as Gil-galad as Fingon's son. And, by the way, the Unfinished Tales cite Fingon as Gil-galad's father as well.

Now, if a healthy neutrality would be achieved - the best option, i think - it may be wiser NOT to cite a Gil-galad's certain father but to comment about the controversy, taking into account the fact of it being an unsolvable matter.--Mornatur Ormacil 14:45, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry - you can't have it both ways - they can't both be his father and just because lots of people believe he is Fingon's son doesn't make it right!! At the end of the day Gil-galad CANNOT be the son of Fingon - firstly we know that Fingon was unmarried - or at least he had no partner in Middle Earth. Secondly, Gil-galad DEFINITELY inherited the High Kingship on the death of Turgon, not on the death of Fingon - so he can't be Fingon's son. Rob Feb 2006.

Ñoldorin inheritance law
Was Galadriel passed over in favor of Gil-galad because she was female, or because Gil-galad, as the grandson of her elder brother Angrod, had priority? I think the latter, as in theory Ñoldorin men and women were equal and the Ñoldor practiced some form of primogeniture rather than seniority (as seen when the kingship passed to Maedhros rather than his uncle Fingolfin).


 * There is considerable debate about exactly how Noldorin inheritance law functioned... even the Noldor had quite a disagreement about it in the stories. It isn't clear that Maedhros ever did inherit over Fingolfin... that was the view espoused by Feanor (eldest son of eldest son), but an alternate view held that the eldest surviving male heir (Fingolfin) would gain the title... which Maedhros referenced when he deferred to Fingolfin.  As to Galadriel - she was passed over.  Why that was so is uncertain because JRRT never spelled out the EXACT details of Noldorin inheritance. --CBDunkerson 13:22, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

A reason that Galadriel was passed over could have been that she married into a Sindarin house; her husband Celeborn was a kinsman of Thingol of Doriath. I would also reference her mother being half Sindar, but that is irrelevant if we accept that Gil-galad is her nephew.
 * I would like to add here that Galadriel's mother was certainly not a Sindar. She was from Aman thus a Lindar(alternate name for Teleri) Elf known as Teleri of Alqualonde or Falmari. The two groups are closely related but are not the same. They separated during the 'Sundering of Elves' and one group of Teleri remained waiting for Thingol later becomng Sindar(Grey folk) and one followed Thingol's brother over the sea. Afrika 02:10, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Good points; however, we don't even need to go this far to understand that "ethnicity" is apparantly at least not a flat-out disqualifier. Fingolfin and Finarfin are both sons of Indis, the Vanya wife of Finwe. Of the decendants of Finwe, only the sons of Feanor are "pure-blooded" Noldor. I think that it's likely that while your family tree counts among the Noldor, your specific ethnic heritage doesn't. Elves seem pretty pragmatic rather than legalistic about their leadership, and don't seem to have racist tendencies at all (at least, not against other elves). Wellspring (talk) 14:55, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Jon- What's going on here: regardless of whether Gil-galad's father was Orodreth or Fingon, Orodreth is Angrod's elder brother, not his son...
 * Not according to the real Silmarillion. The published book is wrong in this as in many other accounts due to a) insufficient research and b) over-enthousiastic editing. -- Jordi· ✆ 19:43, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Did there need to be an inheritance law? In the Blessed Realm, death was exceptionally rare and (ultimately) reversible. Honestly, until the Darkening, how long did Finwë expect to reign? Probably forever. Presumably, after (or even before) the Curse had been laid to rest, he was re-embodied and resumed his office. Unless the Noldor created a law later, they had no reason for one in Valinor. This is attested to by the fact that each son had a following. Wellspring (talk) 20:17, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Finwë decided to not be reembodied so that Míriel could return to life. Then Míriel went to Vairë, weaving tapestries showing the history of the Ñoldor, which Finwë is sometimes allowed to look upon. So, I'd imagine that Finarfin would have been High King of the Ñoldor in Valinor for quite some time. It might have gotten awkward though once Fingolfin was reborn (and he probably would've been at some point). Essentially Finwë and Míriel both at some point made the choice to stay in Mandos to let their spouse be happy (although at first Míriel had other reasons). Double sharp (talk) 14:40, 9 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Relative weights of the different claims to the title aside, I think the bigger issue was that the greater portion of remaining Noldor probably lived under Gil-galad's control. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but, as I understand it, sometime around/after the death of Thingol and destruction of Doriath, Galadriel and Celeborn traveled east to what would become Lindon.  And while there were clearly some Noldor among her people as there later were in Eregion and Lothlorien (since Celebrimbor and other smiths were present in Eregion), there would also be a great number of Sindar and Nandor.  Whereas Gil-galad would have, with him, the remnants of the Noldor of Gondolin (and Nargothrond and Hithlum, if there were any).  So it would make sense for the kingship to pass to the member of the House of Finwe who was among the largest proportion of remaining Noldor.  I also personally doubt that, if she had wanted it, the title would have been denied to her.  Technically, by all rights, after the death of Gil-galad, she could have taken the title, if she had wanted it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.2.127.191 (talk) 22:53, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Possible copyright violation?
An anonymous user at 70.181.69.136 recently added some text to this article that appears to be taken from this site. This may be a violation of the site's copyright, unless the anon is the copyright holder. I've reverted it for now, and if the anon is the copyright holder he or she can restore the text. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:22, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

The Image
The image says that its from peter jackson's fellowship of the ring. I've seen that movie several times and do not recognize the image at all. Its possible that I just have bad memory but its more likely that its from unused footage, in which case we need to specify that and add some source data to the image. savidan(talk) (e@) 05:35, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
 * You can see Gil-galad in those clothes in the intro sequence of the first movie during Galadriel's speech. I am not sure if it also occurs in the theatrical version as I only own the extended cuts. -- Jordi· ✆ 19:44, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Gil-galad, wielding Aeglos, can be seen clearly in the theatrical version. It appears for a few more seconds in the Extended version.--Mornatur Ormacil 14:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism?
"Gil-Galad-is-mad("Star of Radiance") and his epessë (honorary title) Ereinion, meaning "Scion of Kings". He is considered to be surpased in fighting skill by nearly every hobbit in hobbiton. He is frequently confused with Glorfindel when reffering to his fighting skill." and later "Others beleive that he was a wuss that no one liked. One such example is the failed assault on Dairy Queen, in which he tried to order a double fudge brownieshake, then shot the cashier with an assault rifle.  However, he decided to adopt the brownie as a son, saying that "it was more noble than himself'( Silmarillion pg94). He was also involved in a failed bank heist, in which his forced boyfriend, Cirdan, was killed, as well as his ex-lover Cirdan-Clone (due to the fact no one liked him, Gilgalad cloned copies of Cirdan in the hope that one of them would love him)" and "After the War of Wrath and the end of the First Age, Gil-galad founded a realm in the coastal region of Lindon along the shores of Belegaer, the Great Sea. At its height, his realm consisted of 4*10^-35 square miles, Gil-galad mistrusted her,for he had gotten into an arguement with her about Gil-Galad being in the We love drama Club and forbade her from entering Lindon." Also "A little kknown fact about Gil-Galad is that he enjoyed piercing his nose with Vilya and then would proceed to chase his soldiers." Theres a lot more that i doesnt have time to write here, scattered all over the article, so what the hell is this supposed to mean? -Rovdyr

slash crap deleted
Someone recently vandalized this page adding in a whole bunch of slash crap about Gil-galad. I have deleted what I could identify as absolutely false, but I have not confirmed the other facts. I have to say I'm very upset that this was vandalized so badly.

Mbeyers 19:42, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Gil-galad11.jpg
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Adaptations section
Parts of the 'Adaptations' section seem very questionable...

"He was one of the most highly disrespected High Kings of the Noldor. He was also one of the least powerful. His lack of skill with his famous elvish glaive Aiglos gave him an undeniably lame reputation."

and

"It is said that this weak weapon was retrieved by his herald, Elrond, along with his crown and Vilya, back to Imladris for safekeeping until the end of the Third Age."

This doesn't seem in line with the rest of the article or even with the rest of the Adaptations section, and I hardly think the elves would write a song about the fall of a 'weak and lame' king. Perhaps this is a remnant of the previous vandalism?

67.124.91.230 17:25, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Confusion
This article was desperately in need of some greater out of world perspective. There is no one true story of Gil-Galad's life in the first age, save that he was in some way a member of the House of Finwë, and that he succeeded Turgon as High King. Beyond that, it seems clear that Tolkien's final conception of him was as a son of Orodreth (and of Orodreth as a son of Angrod), but this was never incorporated into the stories. The version of his early life that we previously gave as definitive was based on material Tolkien wrote when he viewed Gil-Galad as a son of Finrod, and we have no way to be sure that this was still his attitude when he changed Gil-Galad to a son of Orodreth - we have no idea, for instance, if he intended for Gil-Galad to be present in Nargothrond during the story of Túrin, or if he stuck with the idea of Gil-Galad being sent to the Havens. So, essentially, I would say that there is no one true narrative to give about Gil-Galad up until the fall of Gondolin (and really very little until the First Age). We know he was a member of the House of Finwë (and presumably not a Fëanorian), and that he was with Círdan on Balar, and we more or less know that he was born in Beleriand, but everything else is basically just picking and choosing from unpublished writings. We should try to make this clear, instead of trying to obscure it by constructing a canon version. Certainly we shouldn't try to pretend that the self-constructed canon version which was given here before is the v ersion found in The Silmarillion - it is not. The published Silmarillion makes Gil-Galad the son of Fingon. It says nothing about his uncle Finrod. Even Tolkien's own writings in the Silmarillion proper do not do this. It is only in the Shibboleth of Fëanor and some late family trees that Tolkien makes Gil-Galad the son of Orodreth. All the existing Silmarillion material which mentions Gil-Galad, as I understand it, makes him the son of Felagund. john k 19:17, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This is a really old comment, but I felt it worth replying to to note that things are even more complicated than that. Firstly, in the first conception, Gil-galad was a Fëanorian: from the second version of The Fall of Númenor we have "And it is said that in Beleriand there arose a king, who was of Númenórean race, and he was named Elendil, that is Elf-friend. And he took counsel with the Elves that remained in Middle-earth (and these abode then mostly in Beleriand); and he made a league with Gil-galad the Elf-king who was descended from Fëanor." We do not even know that Gil-galad was ever with Círdan on Balar: The Shibboleth of Fëanor gives "Finrod left his wife in Valinor and had no children in exile. Angrod's son was Artaresto, who was beloved by Finrod and escaped when Angrod was slain, and dwelt with Finrod. Finrod made him his 'steward' and he succeeded him in Nargothrond. His Sindarin name was Rodreth (altered to Orodreth because of his love of the mountains.... His children were Finduilas and Artanáro = Rodnor later called Gil-galad. (Their mother was a Sindarin lady of the North. She called her son Gil-galad.) Rodnor Gil-galad escaped and eventually came to Sirion's Mouth and was King of the Noldor there." That implies that Gil-galad was in Nargothrond before its fall and certainly present while Túrin was there, although it is not clear if he escaped the battle of Tumhalad or the sack of Nargothrond itself. Certainly no mention is ever made of Balar there, although presumably Gil-galad would have moved there after the Third Kinslaying and the destruction of the Havens of Sirion. Double sharp (talk) 06:45, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Feedback
The following was emailed by a reader via OTRS and I was asked and given permission to present it to editors involved in the development of this article for consideration:

First, the Alliance of Elves and Men against Sauron came about after The Dark Lord forged The One Ring. The article seemed to insinuate the two actions were not so tightly wound together. However, the more glaring error is this passage: "At the end of the siege, Sauron finally came forth and fought hand-to hand against Gil-galad and Elendil on the slopes of Mount Doom, but the Dark Lord proved too strong and slew them both." While both Gil-Galad and Elendil fell after the battle, they did slay Sauron, as well. Or at least his body. How else was Isildur able to come later to cut The One Ring from Sauron's finger? In addition, it is likely that Elrond and Cirdan also fought in the struggle against Sauron. What's important is that Sauron fell as well.

Cheers. § FreeRangeFrog croak 15:34, 11 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The last alliance happened over 1500 years after the forging of the one ring, also according to Elrond at the Council of Elrond, he was only an observer. We have no specific proof of Cirdan taking part in the battle. GimliDotNet ( Speak to me, Stuff I've done )  15:56, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

"I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him…’"

"…But few marked what Isildur did. He alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Cirdan stood and I. But Isildur would not listen to our counsel…’"

GimliDotNet ( Speak to me, Stuff I've done )  15:56, 11 September 2013 (UTC)