Talk:Gilgamesh/Archive 2

Need help from wiki coding expert to fix the issue of cuneiform figures not showing up at start.
I only see white boxes, I checked back to earlier versions and these white boxes go back many years. I understand that they are meant to show cuneiform figures, but I'm not sure why they don't seem to be working. Here's the code: Akkadian cuneiform: [ ]

Can anyone with this type of wiki coding expertise help fix this problem so we can see the wonderful cuneiform please?Wiki-proofer-and-tagger (talk) 04:19, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

I have the same problem, cuneiform isn't displayed. 58.182.232.192 (talk) 15:14, 10 November 2014 (UTC)


 * I think that this may be a font problem - possibly browser-specific. I can't see the characters either - I'll ask at Village pump (technical). AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:15, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Wrong Cuneiform
𒄑𒉈𒂵𒈩 should be 𒄑𒉋𒂵𒈩, it is 𒉋(NE šešig/BIL₂) and not 𒉈 (NE) Mexicocamboya (talk) 08:33, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Gilgamesh's name?
The article has the stress on the first syllable. Andrew R. George’s 1999 Penguin Classics translation indicates stress on the second syllable (but concedes that "in some names the position of the stress is conjectural"). Given that he's prepared a critical edition of the original, I would like to see a citation of equal weight supporting the stress on the first syllable. --Tbanderson (talk) 18:13, 23 October 2014 (UTC)


 * You’re right; on page 163 of his two-volume edition, in the scansion examples in the section on metre in the Old Babylonian versions, Gilgamesh appears thrice, each stressed on the second syllable. I’ll correct it.  (OTOH, I couldn’t find a section on the metre of the Standard Babylonian version, and my Akkadian is extremely limited, so anyone better informed with contradictory evidence should feel free to correct.)
 * —FlashSheridan (talk) 16:41, 9 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Deor’s revision of 10:53, 9 September 2016 picked up a subtlety which my (extremely weak) Akkadian missed. (George’s scansion indicates only the stress.)
 * —FlashSheridan (talk) 04:18, 3 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Martin Worthington, Senior Lecturer in Assyriology at the University of Cambridge, confirmed last night at a reception at ISAW that Professor George uses the pronunciation with penultimate stress. Dr Worthington agreed that the name’s appearance at the end of lines, and the rule that the penultimate syllable of a line is stressed, implies this pronunciation, though he is less certain than Professor George about the universality of the rule.
 * — FlashSheridan (talk) 14:07, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Saddam Hussein's Downfall
I don't know if this was discussed in the past but I'd like to raise a point of concern. The last paragraph of "Modern cultural significance" in the article talks about Hussein's admiration for Gilgamesh and the influence he had on him.

All is fine and good until the last line in the paragraph where it says "When the United States pressured Hussein to step down in February 2003, Hussein gave a speech to a group of his generals posing the idea in a positive light by comparing himself to the epic hero." which is historically accurate. However, the terms used here, "pressured Hussein to step down", makes it sound like the USA just politically or economically "pressured" Hussein into letting go of his dictatorship over the country. I can't access the reference where that was cited from, but it conflicts with 2003_invasion_of_Iraq and Saddam_Hussein. He did not "step down", he was "overthrown" and it should be clarified properly.

Reading the article in the current wording, would make people who are unaware of Iraq's history see Hussein as a heroic leader who succumbed to non-military pressure, especially for non-native English speakers. But in reality, he was a bloody dictator with lots of war carmines by his doings. I know I'm being biased since I lived through these times, but I want to assure historical accuracy in this article. Hence why I started a discussion subject instead of editing the page directly.

Please take care of this on my behalf; Rengemaru (talk) 04:12, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
 * In February 2003, Iraq had not yet been invaded, Saddam Hussein had not yet been overthrown, and the United States was still assembling its military forces in Kuwait. What ultimately happened to Saddam Hussein is beyond the scope of this article. The point here is that he was merely being "pressured to step down" at the time when he gave the speech. I do not see how the article makes it sound like Hussein was in any way "a heroic leader"; from my perspective, it merely makes it sound like he tried to portray himself as a heroic leader, not like he actually was one. —Katolophyromai (talk) 07:06, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Omission
I'm surprised there isn't a section about translations of this work. There have been a surprising number since its discovery, some academic, some in relation to the Bible, & most recently some treating as a work of literature. -- llywrch (talk) 21:50, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
 * This article is about the figure Gilgamesh, who appears in the Epic of Gilgamesh as well as in other texts; we have an entirely separate article about the Epic of Gilgamesh, which focuses exclusively on the epic itself. What you are describing here sounds like it would be better suited to that article than to this one. If, however, you think that, since this article is about a major character who appears in the Epic of Gilgamesh, it should have a list of translations of the epic, you are welcome to add a list of translations. —Katolophyromai (talk) 02:48, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
 * , you definitely are correct that a list of translations would be more fitting as a part of the article on the Epic, & not this article. However, my comment above came from my reaction to this article: while there is much in this article about the modern interpretation of Gilgamesh that I never knew about -- & I consider myself familiar with his story -- it omits almost all of the works thru which I've known his story. Such as E.A. Speiser's translation published in Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament, which was perhaps the first to present it separate entirely from being simply a means to understand the Bible. (I bought of my copy of ANET back in the late 1970s just to be able to read a decent translation of the Epic, despite having to pay $64.-- when I was earning less than $4 an hour.) The text presented in ANET emphasized the theme of Gilgamesh's search for immortality, as evidenced by that translation ending with Tablet XI, where Gilgamesh draws the attention of Urshanabi to the walls of Uruk -- "Inspect the base, view the brickwork./Is not the very core made of oven-fired brick?/Did not the seven sages lay down its foundation?" -- suggesting that immortality is achieved thru durable works, not magic herbs.Perhaps more relevant to both articles -- about the man & the epic -- is the omission of any mention of John Gardner, who was influenced by this story, as well as other tales from ancient Mesopotamia, in writing his novel The Sunlight Dialogues. Gardner's unending interest in the story is borne out by the fact the last project before his death was completing the typescript for his translation of the Epic with the help of John Maier. (Maier notes that Gardner published at least one excerpt from this translation in his own name before completing the typescript, & repeatedly acknowledges that Gardner was the leading force in their work. "John Gardner's part in the project was, finally, to decide upon the reading of the lines," he tells us.)But thinking about the issue of translating the Epic of Gilgamesh, I find it relevant to note that every translator is forced to deal with the problem of creating a text to translate. Not decide between variants of words or sentences -- as is the challenge with many ancient text -- but which fragments or episodes to include or exclude. Does the translator base their translation on the recension of Sin-Leqi-Unninni, the Old Babylonian recension, the Summerian, or some bricolage of the many versions in different languages? This fluidity of text subverts Roland Barthe's concern in his "The Death of the Author" about the tyranny of the author, & how the reader must be free to define the meaning of the text for him or herself. How can a reader of the Epic of Gilgamesh be fettered by the author's intent when each reader is forced to define what the text is? Seen that way, a homoerotic reading of the story (one I don't agree with) is arguably as valid as a reading that emphasizes the quest for immortality (one I agree with), or its influence on the Bible & Greek mythology.I apologize about that digression. The TL:DR version of my comments above would be this: John Gardner really needs to be included in the section "Modern cultural significance", & some overt reference to the theme of the quest for immortality. A few other people should be included too, especially since Stephen Mitchell has managed to insert him here in another successful exercise of self-promotion. -- llywrch (talk) 06:43, 19 September 2019 (UTC)