Talk:Gilgo Beach serial killings/Archive 1

Peter Hackett
The article linked as 42 does not say the family of Shannan Gilbert are suing the Suffolk County PD, they are suing Peter Hackett. Why does it say differently? 50.170.187.72 (talk) 17:27, 9 May 2014 (UTC) Rachael
 * Not to mention, he fits at least part of the profile mentioned in the article and many people seem to suspect his involvement. The murders seem to have stopped, after he fled the area to Fort Myers, Florida. 24.212.155.182 (talk) 04:47, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Possible Victim, 3/17/2013
A NYC woman went missing. They found some of her belongings and her abandoned car near Gilgo Beach. Police are currently searching for her. The related article is here. It's possible she's still alive and that it's a coincidence she went missing at Gilgo Beach, but it doesn't look good. Here's a link to the article. http://bronx.news12.com/news/nassau-suffolk-state-police-seek-missing-woman-at-gilgo-beach-1.4830179 --69.116.77.241 (talk) 02:41, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Victims
The number of suspected victims is now up to 10. State troopers found 2 sets of remains this morning but initial reports suggest that they have been there for much longer than the 8 previous finds. http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/cops-startling-find-of-2-more-remains-1.2811767 23:46, 11 April 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cfagan1987 (talk • contribs)

Newsday and news12 are both reporting that skeletal remains have been found in Manorville. They have been there for five years and are close to where the other human remains have been found. They haven't mentioned a link to the Giglo killings, but I thought I'd mention it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.81.107.213 (talk) 07:28, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Media outlets are reporting today that the autopsy and toxicology turned up no drugs or alcohol in the remains of Shannan Gilbert; it's now believed that she could have died while fleeing the killer. At what point does she get included in the article? http://www.longislandpress.com/2013/05/01/shannan-gilberts-disappearance-three-years-later/ http://7online.com/news/more-information-has-been-released-regarding-the-death-of-shannon-gilbert-whose-body-was-found-on-long-islands-gilgo-beach/431659/ Matthias Alexander Jude Shapiro (talk) 14:02, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Craigslist ripper
Shouldn't Craigslist serial killer, Craigslist ripper and Long Island ripper redirect here? 65.93.12.101 (talk) 03:16, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

The Craigslist killer more commonly refers to Philip Markoff (at least in New England) is Phillip Markoff) and there have been a few SK's known as the Long Island Serial Killer most notable of which was Joel Rifkin.  Posimosh 02:36, 18 January 2017 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Posimosh (talk • contribs)

Long Island serial killer
"Long Island serial killer" seems to need a disambiguation page, since there have been other serial killers based on Long Island. Long Island serial killer (disambiguation). 65.93.12.101 (talk) 03:22, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Correct, there are currently at least 2 serial killers operating on Long Island; the Gilgo Beach one and the Manorville one. Here's an article about the Manorville bodies: http://www.longislandpress.com/2011/03/24/long-islands-other-serial-killer/ 24.46.236.67 (talk) 17:33, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the Manorville killer is far less notable than the recent killings which are receiving widespread international news coverage. So I think the Gilgo Beach killer should remain on this page, but it might be useful to create an article for the Manorville killer and add a "not to be confused with" note on top of this page. Michael5046 (talk) 11:20, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The problem is that I don't think all the Manorville bodies are linked. I live on Long Island and the Manorville bodies are almost never spoken of. The media and the police will speak about it for a week or so and than it's history. It's very odd. Cfagan1987 (talk) 23:42, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The Suffolk County DA has just confirmed that two sets of remains found along Ocean Parkway are linked with the bodies found off the LIE in Manorville in 2000 and 2003. This whole case just gets more and more confusing ...

http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/da-more-than-one-gilgo-killer-1.2865686 Cfagan1987 (talk) 19:29, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree! I updated the article as best I could, but at some point the information will have to be separated into different articles. Ravenscroft32 (talk) 23:43, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Nine not confirmed as victims
The article currently states in the lede: "Four of the victims were found in December 2010, while five more were found in March and April 2011." I cannot find confirmation that at the present time 4/13/2011 the police or medical examiner is confirming all the remains are the result of this particular killer or even that all nine died from foul play.71.252.54.20 (talk) 15:00, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * We'll just have to wait and see what happens...Info is changing every day.Ravenscroft32 (talk) 15:47, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the current article clearly states "suspected serial killer", "suspected victims" and "who is believed to have murdered as many as nine people". Officials have at multiple times said at least the initial four and possibly the others are the work of a serial killer, simply because its unusual to find so many bodies in the same area. Also the other victims have not been identified, nor their cause of deaths, making it difficult to connect them anyway. I'm pretty sure all them will be linked eventually when those facts are confirmed.Michael5046 (talk) 11:13, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Suffolk County PD is now saying that all 10 victims were killed by the same person. http://www.newsday.com/news/breaking/cops-1-killer-responsible-in-gilgo-murders-1.3354904 Paris1127 (talk) 18:50, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Flight 800
I am slowly wondering (as its always refered to "on the beach of Long Island") if some of those remains could be remains of Flight 800 ? -- Gary  Dee  20:57, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

New York templates
What's the point of the New York templates at the bottom of the article? They seem irrelevant... Paris1127 (talk) 05:50, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

"The toddler"
The article mentions "the toddler" without any prior reference to any child. What does this refer to? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.27.253.7 (talk) 22:23, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It's a bit difficult to understand because it's such a long sentence, but grammatically the sentence is correct. If you read on you get the whole picture: ...found on April 4 and 11, 2011, respectively. means that the remains of a (“the”) toddler was found on April 4th and the remains of his/her mother on April 11th. --Six words (talk) 22:39, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Yessss.... but this not what one calls good writing. A clearer statement of what sort of remains were found and when they were found should be made before the mention sketches and jewelry. Perhaps a table? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.246.2.254 (talk) 14:40, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Pictures
The article needs more pictures, beside the picture about the Ocean Pkwy exit and the LI Counties map. Epicgenius (talk) 17:31, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Span of killings
Why is "2016 (possibly)" listed in the span of killings? I see no mention of victims or possible victims in 2016. 2601:84:C702:CE00:D4F9:6F4A:646E:2133 (talk) 03:48, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

That's a good question... and what's the source for the "10-16" victims being ascribed to the LISK at Gilgo (namely the burlap sack murders which are half that.) Posimosh 02:33, 18 January 2017 (UTC) Posimosh 02:33, 18 January 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Posimosh (talk • contribs)

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order of page
Suggest putting section about victims above section about potential identity of killer, I believe this is more respectful and socially appropriate so as not to glorify the killer, and of little significance otherwise, so there isn't reason not to do it. Annafjmorris (talk) 21:58, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Year of the Pig
I tagged the claim the unidentified possibly Asian female may have died at the age of 29 as needing a cite. The one cite for that section doesn't seem to mention this detail and I'm somewhat confused how the conclusion was drawn. If the pendant is for the year of the pig, this would likely suggest she was born in the year of the pig. So maybe in ~2007, ~1995, ~1983, ~1971, ~1959 etc. The estimate age of the remains and the time of discovery would rule out 2007, and maybe 1995. 1983 may seem the most likely but this still doesn't reveal the age at the time of death. Is it believed she was killed in 2012? If so the 29 may make sense. But the only clue on how long the remains were there mentioned in that section is sometimes before Hurricane Sandy in late 2012. That wouldn't seem to rule to 2010 or even 2000 or heck earlier. (I'd also note that the time of burial could theoretically differ significantly from the time of death.) If police or whoever have given such a narrow timeframe for when that person died, this should be mentioned in our article. Nil Einne (talk) 02:00, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

List of persons of interest and named suspects
Deleted James Bissett, as police said he was never a person of interest or suspect. Just because the press speculated about him when he died does not mean that he should now be listed in this article.Parkwells (talk) 15:53, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 4 July 2021
The preferred term for what is here referred to as « prostitutes » is « sex workers ». While the criminal codes of various jurisdictions classify sex work as prostitution, using that term is not necessary or kind for understanding in the context of this crime or others. Leconseildesnombres (talk) 09:15, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Prostitute is a more precise term. Sex worker covers a wide variety of occupations. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:13, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 July 2021
Please update all mentions of sex work using the outdated term "prostitute" and "prostitution" to "sex worker" and "sex work" 86.25.146.22 (talk) 16:27, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

No, see the paragraph directly above. David J Johnson (talk) 16:40, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

ancient history

 * ... believed to have murdered 10 to 14 people associated with the sex trade over the last 15 or so years ...

Where does "15 years" come from? The earliest case mentioned here as possibly connected is 2006. —Tamfang (talk) 01:02, 19 August 2012 (UTC)


 * has anyone seen if Richard Cottingham has been looked at for these crimes? 2603:8081:8900:8F8C:A067:8F98:930A:CCCD (talk) 05:49, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, I see he has been in jail since 19802603:8081:8900:8F8C:A067:8F98:930A:CCCD (talk) 05:51, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

"Sex worker" cf. "prostitute" edit warring
Why is the ultra-PC term "the sex trade" used? They were prostitutes. They did not deserve to be killed but there is no need to sugar coat that they were prostitutes. Also in reference to the above question apparently some remains of a person that were first found in 1996 on Fire Island were found at the place the other bodies were found. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.227.75.169 (talk) 03:04, 24 April 2014 (UTC)


 * It isn't "ultra-PC", just appropriate, as it covers the entire gamut of sex-related commerce; the word "prostitute" has a lot of negative connotations which aren't relevant to the story. As your sentence regarding '"sugar coat[ing]"' demonstrated, "prostitute" is used as a derogatory term because of the traditional biases still clinging to our society. The important fact here is that they all worked in the same industry, in a small geographic area; if they had all been mailmen would you mind if it said "the postal service" instead? Yes, their career decision made them (potentially) easier targets, but unless the killer was Jack the Ripper they were probably chosen because of the ease-of-access their profession afforded him; I doubt the killer was killing these women specifically because they were sex workers. Matthias Alexander Jude Shapiro (talk) 13:55, 12 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Hi I tried to fix this and David J Johnson reverted my changes stating that this has been extensively discussed, but I only see this short discussion here and it resolves in favor of using 'sex worker'. 'Prostitute' is an outdated term that is derogatory. Outdated terms aren't used on public information for the same reasons why older racial terms aren't provided without context. Please stop reverting my edits or provide sufficient evidence here.


 * I would love to understand why David J. Johnson and DRT1245 continue to engage in an edit war against a multitude of other editors on this page over a number of years in which editors change the term Prostitute to Sex Worker and it gets changed back. Please advise or I will report for edit warring. Ambox warning pn.svg You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. This means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be although other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.


 * Points to note:
 * Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
 * Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.
 * If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. or Stop hand nuvola.svg Your recent editing history  shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See the bold, revert, discuss cycle for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.


 * Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing&mdash;especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert.  Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring&mdash;even if you do not violate the three-revert rule&mdash;should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.


 * In the mainstream press:
 * https://inews.co.uk/opinion/columnists/sex-workers-prostitutes-words-matter-95447
 * https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/explainers/understanding-sex-work-open-society


 * By sex workers themselves:
 * https://www.nswp.org/sites/nswp.org/files/StellaInfoSheetLanguageMatters.pdf
 * https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/life-and-relationships/why-the-word-prostitute-has-to-go-20180913-p503hj.html


 * Terminology used on Wikipedia is not decided by opinion columnists on inews.co.uk. The term 'sex worker' is vague and non-specific; it refers to a number of different professions. The term 'prostitute' accurately describes the victims, and is used in the cited sources. I am sorry that you find the term 'prostitute' offensive, but it is the word the accurately and precisely describes the victims. drt1245 (talk) 01:11, 11 November 2020 (UTC)


 * drt1245 is absolutely correct in the statement above. As I have said to you, the term "prostitute" is mentioned in all the press reports at the time of the killings and that is accurate. It is not up to individuals to change the wording in the article just because they object to a word.  Wikipedia is not censored.  In any case "sex worker" is non-specific, whereas "prostitute" is what the victims were at the time of their deaths. David J Johnson (talk) 09:40, 11 November 2020 (UTC)


 * This is two people’s opinions of a job that a number of women who are dead had. Please stop reverting the changes from sex worker to prostitute or you will be reported for engaging in an edit war. Ambox warning pn.svg You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. This means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be although other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.


 * Points to note:
 * Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
 * Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.
 * If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. or Stop hand nuvola.svg Your recent editing history  shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See the bold, revert, discuss cycle for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.


 * Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing&mdash;especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert.  Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring&mdash;even if you do not violate the three-revert rule&mdash;should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.


 * The term prostitute is derogatory and unnecessarily violent towards those working in the sex industry. Thank you in advance— SSDGMMSW


 * I would love to know, who gave the two of you and whoever else continues to disrespect these women by reverting the terms back to prostitutes, the authority to make these decisions and frankly, I feel as though both of you need to be looked into in terms of continuing to use violent language and perpetuate these harsh stereotypes on women who are dead and therefore cannot defend themselves. It’s cruel, violent, and unnecessary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.16.219.160 (talk) 22:32, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
 * ' Prostitutes' killer seen as versed in police techniques". The New York Times. Retrieved April 9, 2016.' -Article reference. Let's not lay too serious a charge at the door of what Wikipedia could only regard as the most prototypical of articles' news sources. JohndanR (talk) 03:35, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Why is it that those who use the correct term "prostitute" are the ones who are engaged in the edit war and not the one who changes it sex worker?2603:8081:8900:8F8C:A067:8F98:930A:CCCD (talk) 05:47, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
 * BTW, even wikipedia uses the word prostitute in the article on prostitution. Words matter. "The majority of prostitutes are female and have male clients." I am sure the woke editor will run right over there and change it now! 2603:8081:8900:8F8C:A067:8F98:930A:CCCD (talk) 05:54, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
 * How is it "cruel, violent, unnecessary"? Even the book on this issue calls them prostitutes, and that is on Wikipedia stating the fact. What seems plain is you are woke, and do not care for the truth. 2603:8081:8900:A185:D011:630D:488F:1D0 (talk) 03:18, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Suggest removing Natasha Hugo from potential victims section
Police have definitively stated that Hugo's death is unrelated to the LISK case. Her car and belongings were found the day after she disappeared. One set of footprints lead from her car into the sea and her body washed ashore three months later. Her family stated at the time that she had a history of believing she was being followed, which some internet researchers have understood to mean that she was being followed. The way her family phrased the comment, however, would tend to suggest a history of paranoid delusions. The circumstances would suggest death by drowning (either accidental or suicide). (See the news articles cited in the Wikipedia article.) Atiru (talk) 01:27, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Asian "male" victim
If someone is "living as a woman" it seems a lot more likely they were a trans woman... men don't "live as women". Considering they may have been killed because they were trans, it seems a little ghoulish to not even acknowledge that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.63.147.98 (talk) 03:52, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Additionally using ‘He’ throughout obviously the remains were identified as biologically male but further evidence suggests that ‘this person’ or ‘they’ could be used as a replacement without damaging the integrity of the information Sexismcorrector23 (talk) 11:27, 22 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Done. Atiru (talk) 10:00, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

The source states "Based on the victim's clothing, it is possible that the decedent may have lived as a woman". This is pure speculation, nothing to suggest that this theory is widely accepted or that there is any actual evidence of how the victim lived his life. You could also speculate that the killer could have dressed him in women's clothing, but there's no evidence of that either. The only facts that are known are that he is a deceased biological male that was found dressed in women's clothing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.29.0.86 (talk) 13:47, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 July 2023
On July 14, 2023, the police arrested a suspect, Rex Heuermann, 59, in the Gilgo Beach serial killer cases. Rex Heuermann is an architect who works in Manhattan and resides in Nassau County. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/14/nyregion/gilgo-beach-murders-long-island-suspect.html Sourcechecker13 (talk) 15:32, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ by User:Atiru. Please see the last sentence in this article's lead section and leave a message on this talk page if you have any further requests or concerns.  City O f  Silver  17:29, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Would it be against policy to create a redirect from his name to this article? Dennis C. Abrams (talk) 19:20, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's an outright policy violation that could get you in deep trouble. The article for Ohio serial killer Anthony Sowell was created literally the day he was arrested, well over a year and a half before he was convicted, and of course you're not talking about anything nearly as contentious as that. That said, I'm also not sure it's in compliance with the bullet point at the end of WP:CRIME. Right now, we the public know next to nothing about why they arrested this man. Let's say you make the redirect, then it turns out this was a complete screwup by law enforcement and he had nothing to do with this. In that scenario, there would have been a period of time where typing an innocent person's name in the search box on here would have brought up an article named "Long Island serial killer" and that shouldn't sit right with anyone.
 * So while I don't think a redirect would be a major controversy, I'd still be cautious with one. I think the best approach would be to have it go to Long Island serial killer, a subsection in the "Suspects and persons of interest" that I bet is going to be created and written shortly.  City O f  Silver  20:06, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

BLP Notice
BLP noticeboard Awshort (talk) 21:31, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Strong possibility of more than 1 killer
For consideration, and a bit of work to make the change I'm proposing.

The article as existed prior to the Heuermann arrest was a decent capture of the "case" surrounding victims found on Long Island. It's never been assumed by authorities to be a single offender, though always possible.

The Gilgo Beach 4 was a pre-existing subgroup of victims now linked to Heuermann.

I'm proposing a LISK article similar to what existed prior to the Heuermann arrest which then leads to 2 subarticles... Gilgo 4 and non-Gilgo 4. Heuermann would certainly be a potential suspect in the non-Gilgo murders, along with Bittrolff, etc.

Renaming the LISK article as Gilgo is very misleading. As although all squares are rectangles, not all rectangles are squares. MattBoyer Cr (talk) 20:41, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

InfoBox, # Victims 10-18?
A few clarification questions, about the InfoBox, there's a line called Victims and it lists 10-18. (1) Shouldn't that have a reference cite citation source, or is it already sourced in the main article? I might be asking a Wikipedia in general question! (2) Did whomever edited the 10-18 text merely extrapolate that some of the unsolved nearby remains could be attributable to the assumed one Gilgo beach serial killer, or had law enforcement / investigators given this number as an estimate, lumped together? Two important tightenings needed. -From Peter {a.k.a. Vid2vid (talk | contribs)} 17:13, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 July 2023
There is no source backing the gender of the "Asian male" victim at the beginning of the article. References need to be included in the introduction as well, because it seems as if this statement is not backed by any source at this point in the text. The article I've linked below should also be referenced when the victim's actual gender is clarified—it includes more recent information and an accurate sketch of the victim at the time of their murder.

https://www.vox.com/culture/23795421/lisk-long-island-serial-killer-arrested-rex-heuermann-evidence-dna?fbclid=IwAR0bqv9w569fBhM4exe1zgdD1tyckMpjMe7fa9-w14E0F54GoKnORlzLMXo Touchstone the clown (talk) 20:51, 16 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Did the police release this new sketch? If so I'd expect you can find more reliable source than this. Likewise this article claims matter-of-factly the person was trans.  Who made that determination?  You have a real reliable source issue here I think.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gjxj (talk • contribs) 20:46, 17 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi @Touchstone the clown the lead summarizes the body and generally does in include sources as the article's body contains the sources generally with more detail. There are sources in the Gilgo Beach serial killings  section. Please be more specific as to the changes you want made.  S0091 (talk) 21:12, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

"Manorville Butcher" and "Craigslist Ripper"
Were these terms ever commonly used? I have no hits for them in the New York Times or Newsday. I have some low quality htis in Insider (2019) and the "Big Book of Serial Killers" (by Insider, 2018) Again, I would discount sources from the last few days as citogenesis because many are just uncritically copying the Wikipedia article's contents. Unless reliable sources commonly use these phrases, neither should we. czar 10:35, 17 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Searching ProQuest I get two hits for "Manorville Butcher" and none on Newspapers.com so certainly not common. For "Craigslist Ripper" I get 36 on ProQuest and 11 in Newspapers.com, mostly in 2011 for both so not entirely uncommon but not sustained.  S0091 (talk) 16:34, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Naming suspect
I removed the suspect's name from an unsourced edit and revdel'd it - at that point they were named in only one source. Now many have picked it up, presumably fact-checked. While I would still rather wait until there has been an official announcement, I think there's a lot of coverage now of the arrestee. I would still advise care and devotion to sourcing - Richard Jewell is the cautionary example.  Acroterion   (talk)   15:26, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It's been years since I've seriously edited WP. Would adding the "this is the subject of a current event" template at the top of the article be called for here? Or is there some standard of notability that it doesn't yet meet? Thanks, † dismas †|(talk) 15:31, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I've added one.  Acroterion   (talk)   15:44, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I just want to caution naming the suspect per WP:BLP and WP:BLPCRIME. Per those policies, I'm at a soft "do not include their name". Esb5415 (talk) 20:06, 14 July 2023 (UTC)


 * BLPCRIME does not mean we can not name the accused on this article. Rex Hermann's name is being widely disseminated in reliable sources. Of course we should not be writing as though he is guilty but yes he can be named.  Iamreallygoodatcheckers talk 21:51, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and added the arrest, but did not include the name pending further discussion here.  Iamreallygoodatcheckers talk 21:57, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I see the name once. I think it makes sense to include. AMDG09 (talk) 02:04, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
 * what is your argument for excluding the name?  Iamreallygoodatcheckers<b style="color: #000000;"> talk</b> 23:24, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Iamreallygoodatcheckers The person had been arrested and charged less than a full 24 hours before someone tried to include the name. You stated that BLPCRIME doesn't prevent him being named, but it does in a sense - he is still a non-public figure, and obviously hasn't been convicted of his crime that he is accused of.
 * I see no reason to include someone's name just for the sake of it being published as breaking news, since the guy very well could be innocent (which, judging by the RS that have covered this so far as well as the evidence against him, is highly unlikely). In my opinion, there isn't a reason to rush to include when waiting a bit doesn't hurt the article or the person's reputation.
 * Awshort (talk) 07:29, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
 * This is not a mere news story. He has been indicted by a grand jury for allegedly murdering four people. Even if the man is acquitted of all crime's, the trial and him would still need to be mentioned here as it's part of the Gilgo Beach/Long Island serial killer story. Articles about serial killers are quick to include the name of every suspect even when there aren't arrests at all -- see Zodiac killer, Texas Killing Fields, etc. Furthermore, it's common place to name the accused in high-profile cases where the suspects name is being widely disseminated in reliable sources. This the common practice for nearly all mass shooting suspects for example. <b style="color: #E2062C ;"> Iamreallygoodatcheckers</b><b style="color: #000000;"> talk</b> 07:41, 15 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Why do we not have the suspect listed in the text of the article when the suspect is listed in one of the references? Rossidor (talk) 01:53, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
 * ^This right here? Why is exactly the right question on this one.  Why do wiki edits seem to become a control issue by editors when they don't need to be?  BLPNAME states "Caution should be applied when identifying individuals who are discussed primarily in terms of a single event. When the name of a private individual has not been widely disseminated or has been intentionally concealed, such as in certain court cases or occupations, it is often preferable to omit it, especially when doing so does not result in a significant loss of context."  Rex Heuermann has been charged, he is not a minor, his name is extremely widely disseminated on every major news outlet, so why not just print the obvious fact that the man with that name has been arrested (it's in the citation!), it does not imply innocence or guilt, it's a simple fact.  BLPCRIME is worded poorly as well,  "...that suggests the person has committed or is accused of having committed a crime...".  It should simply say "that suggests the person has committed a crime", since a conviction is required in that case, but "that suggests ...is accused of having committed a crime" is invalid as it is a fact that the person has been accused, that happens regardless of any legal proceeding.  Can some committee, or authorized individual re-word BLPCRIME to make logical sense in this regard?  A thoughtful discussion makes sense, but in this case it seems a little absurd not to include the name.  For that matter, why not remove the other suspect's name, he wasn't even arrested for this crime. Reactorred (talk) 21:58, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

His name is now in hundreds of reliable sources. Whether he is actually guilty is irrelevant to the discussion, he was arrested. Fact. Important to the story. Gjxj (talk) 15:15, 15 July 2023 (UTC)


 * @Gjxj Whether he is actually guilty is irrelevant to the discussion, he was arrested. Correct, it is important to the story. His name being included at such an early time, however, is not. BLPCRIME is pretty clear that suggesting a named person who hasn't been convicted is something that requires a fairly wide consensus.
 * @Iamreallygoodatcheckers Even if the man is acquitted of all crime's, the trial and him would still need to be mentioned here as it's part of the Gilgo Beach/Long Island serial killer story.
 * Yes, it probably would deserve mentioning - and that would be after he went through the legal process and had his day in court, which is what BLPCRIME suggests, or gave an interview/interviews and became a public figure.
 * Articles about serial killers are quick to include the name of every suspect even when there aren't arrests at all -- see Zodiac killer, Texas Killing Fields, etc.
 * I glanced over these, but from what I recall the common element is the suspects named are all either dead, or were convicted of other crimes.
 * Furthermore, it's common place to name the accused in high-profile cases where the suspects name is being widely disseminated in reliable sources.
 * It should be a common place, but it is not. See Killing of Jordan Neely for a recent example, Murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German for an older example (full disclosure, I was heavily involved in arguing for the inclusion on the second example)
 * My standpoint is still the same regarding this case; he is unknown, has not made any public statements or given any interviews that would change that, and the case is brand new. I don't see a reason to include so early in the investigation.
 * Awshort (talk) 18:09, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with Awshort. It's too early to determine if there is enough to overcome WP:BLPCRIME and also be mindful of primary (Primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them in light of WP:BLPPRIMARY (Where primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source, subject to the restrictions of this policy, no original research, and the other sourcing policies).  Meaning if sources are simply regurgitating what those involved say (investigators, etc.) that also leans towards not including. S0091 (talk) 18:56, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Has anyone addressed the issue that BLPCRIME may need refactoring? You reference it like it's the word of God, perhaps it could use some tweaking.  Laws can be and are amended often to correct mistakes, add clarity, evolve with the changing times, etc.  The discussion here seems more suited to a dysfunctional Congress versus simple statement of public facts. Reactorred (talk) 22:20, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
 * @Awshort This doesn't jive with the names listed under suspects and persons of interest.
 * The business owner who killed himself is a suspect simply because he may have sold burlap. That's some incredibly thin speculation being used to justify inclusion. Meanwhile there's a mountain of evidence against Heuermann to prove guilt, yet his name should not be disclosed?
 * If this was a case of husband charged with killing his wife, would we name the victim and not the husband? 2607:FEA8:11DF:F706:B103:30DF:2FD3:D0E (talk) 05:28, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
 * 100% agree Reactorred (talk) 21:58, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

What nonsense. "a suspect was arrested, but if you want the name you'll have to google it yourself..". How is it that Kohberger is named in the Idaho case? What's the difference? Gjxj (talk) 23:24, 15 July 2023 (UTC)


 * 100% Reactorred (talk) 21:59, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

There is a lengthy section of a bunch of suspects who are named, seemingly because editors felt they were suspects, without any evidence and thin citations. Yet someone is actually arrested - and we walk on egg shells and don't even include his name? This seems really odd. The most confusing part is who is protecting him and why. Typically in these cases, you can tell. It's a political thing or a social issue people are biased for or against. Who on Wikpedia is out to protect serial killers? 47.208.138.90 (talk) 19:19, 16 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Neither the Murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German nor the Killing of Jordan Neely involved serial killers AFAWK. Yet both of these had or have had extensive discussions about whether to include the names of those accused of a crime. There are plenty of other examples I can't recall offhand. Nil Einne (talk) 19:54, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

He absolutely should be named. If wikipedia is to be a reference of current events and history, his name should be included. Rex Heuermann is far more than a suspect, he is a defendant, arrested and charged with this crime. This article should be clear to presume his innocence and not label him guilty, but he far more than a mere suspect. Someone above compared this situation to Richard Jewel, which is way off base. Jewel was never charged, he was never a defendant. Rex Heuermann was charged and is a defendant, that is the point in which someone's name should come into an article like this, when they are formally charged and a defendant. Yes, innocent people are charged with crimes all the time and his innocence should be presumed, but as a source of historical information, his arrest and case is part of this story (even if acquitted) and should be included in the article. As written, this article reads like it was written by Rex Heuermann's defense attorney's and not an independent source of historical information about an event.Leochews (talk) 18:36, 21 July 2023 (UTC)


 * @Leochews see the below RfC which just closed with consensus to include. S0091 (talk) 18:42, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Correcting some math (minor issues, but annoying).
Amber Lynn Costello is described as "approximately 100 lbs (50kg)". At 2.2kg/lb, 100lbs = 45.5kg, or alternatively 50kg = 110lbs. The same problem occurs in the description of Valerie Mack. Other lb/kg conversions seem correct (e.g. Melissa Barthelemy 95lbs/43kg). 136.168.144.146 (talk) 21:34, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * It's a rare case of too little precision. Usually we have the opposite problem. It was being rounded to the nearest 10 kg. I have increased the precision and it now reads "100 pounds (45 kg)". GA-RT-22 (talk) 21:29, 20 July 2023 (UTC)