Talk:Gillin Boat Club

School Wikipedia Project
Hey I'm working on a school project at Cornell University editing the Schuylkill Navy page. If you have time, my teammates and I could use your help. Thanks! user:Aaramsey33 Aaramsey33 (talk) 03:42, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Gillin Boat Club Meets Wikipedia Notability Standards
Hi Codf1977,

You proposed deletion of Gillin Boat Club with a reference to WP:CLUB. As the article meets the standards set forth in the Wikipedia Notability Guidelines, I have removed the  notice.

Gillin Boat Club meets the following Primary Notability criteria for organizations. WP:PSTS states that an organization "is notable if it has been the subject of significant coverage in secondary sources." Furthermore, "Notability requires only that these necessary sources exist, not that the sources have already been named in the article."

Here is a list of independent secondary sources that cover Gillin:

Bloat on the Water, City Paper

Dedication of St. Joseph's Boathouse, First New One on the Schuylkill in 98 Years, Set for June 15, thefreelibrary.com

A New Era of Rowing at St. Joseph's Prep, The Bulletin

Saint Joseph's: SJU Dedicates Boat in Honor of Olympian Renee Hykel '01

Project Profile of Nason & Cullen

St.Josephs University - Boathouse Floor

As you point out, WP:CLUB presents an alternate criteria for non-comercial organizations:

Organizations are usually notable if they meet both of the following standards:
 * 1) The scope of their activities is national or international in scale.
 * 2) Information about the organization and its activities can be verified by third-party, independent, reliable sources.

1. The activities of Gillin Boat Club crews (St. Joe's U and St. Joe's Prep) are national and international:

• St. Joseph's Prep from Gillin "have been to England’s Henley Regatta eight times and won the prestigious Princess Elizabeth Cup in 2000."

• St. Joseph's Prep "swept the eight-oared races at the Stotesbury Regatta (largest juniors' regatta), becoming only the second team to accomplish the feat in the race’s 82-year history."

• St. Joseph's Prep "won the Stotesbury Cup nine times since 1987. The next closest is Thomas Jefferson (Va.) with three wins.

• St. Joseph's University won a Silver medal at the Dad Vail Regatta (largest US Regatta) 1959.

• St. Joseph's U won a Gold medal at the Dad Vail Regatta 1970.

• St. Joe's U coach Al Rosenberg took the U.S. Olympic 8 to Tokyo in 1964, winning gold.

• St. Joe's U grad Mike Teti '78, the current U.S. National Team coach

• Teti was 2004 FISA Coach of the Year,

• Teti led his Heavyweight 8 to Olympic Gold in Athens.

• Teti also guided the Heavyweight 8 to an unprecedented three consecutive World Titles from 1997-1999.

• Rosenberg and Teti (both from St. Joe's U) are the only coaches to guide the Olympic Men's rowing team to Gold since 1956.

• Donald Flanigan '60 and Richard Flanigan '60 captured over 40 U.S. and World Championships at the Masters level.

Since 2002, the crews of St. Joe's U at Gillian have accomplished:

• three gold medals at Dad Vail Regatta (largest US Regatta)

• one silver at Dad Vails

• two bronze medals at Dad Vails

• Dad Vail Men's Point Trophy in 2003, second in 2004

• qualified three boats for IRA's (national championship) in 2003 and 2004

• In 2004, the Varsity 4 finished fourth in the Grand Final at IRA's (national championship)

2. This information can be verified at various independent sites like these here:

A New Era of Rowing at St. Joseph's Prep, The Bulletin

Winner of every Stotesbury Cup Regatta race since the first race in 1927

Mike Teti Profile

Al Rosenberg Profile

1974 induction of Allen P. Rosenberg into hall of fame

2005 Dad Vail Results

2004 Dad Vail Results

As this article on Gillin Boat Club meets both the primary notability criteria (covered by secondary sources) AND the alternate criteria (international & national activity), when only one is necessary, the subject is clearly entitled to its own article and should not be deleted.

Ciricula (talk) 18:11, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Notability Issues.
I do not think that the Club meets the WP:GNG, WP:ORG or WP:CLUB as the links provided above fail to show significant coverage of the Club. The do show the cub has entered teams into events, the article in the "The Bulletin" does show coverage, but is not very significent and is at least shaired coverage with the new coach. The NCAA article is more about Renee Hykel. Neither demonstrate coverage outside the local area which the club is based. I do not belive the "The scope of their activities is national or international in scale." is ment to cover a local club sending a team to a national or international event - as such I feel the club does not meet the criteria for an article. Codf1977 (talk) 10:26, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Gillin Boat Club Meets Wikipedia Notability Standards (response to Codf1977)
Hi Codf1977,

Gillin Boat Club meets the notability requirements under two criteria, either one of which would be sufficient to entitle the subject to its own article: ====1.   Primary Criteria -- Gillin Boat Club has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject under WP:GNG and, more specifically WP:ORG.====

Under the Primary Criteria:

A company, corporation, organization, school, team, religion, group, product, or service is notable if it has been the subject of significant coverage in secondary sources. Such sources must be reliable, and independent of the subject. See WP:PSTS. "Notability requires only that these necessary sources exist, not that the sources have already been named in the article." See Evidence.

"Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail, and no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material. See WP:SIGCOV.

I have already directed you to many of the following independent secondary sources that cover Gillin Boat Club and focus specifically on the club’s Boathouse or equipment:


 * St. Joe’s Gets Nod For New Boathouse, Rowing News p. 5 (February 28, 1998) (article discussing approval of new boathouse)

Bloat on the Water, City Paper, (April 17-23, 2003)] (director of Penn Praxis at the Graduate School of Fine Arts of the University of Pennsylvania criticizing the architectural design of the Gillin boathouse).
 * [http://citypaper.net/articles/2003-04-17/cityspace.shtml Steinberg,


 * (providing a profile of Gillin Boat Club).


 * Brendan F. Quinn, A New Era of Rowing at St. Joseph's Prep, The Bulletin (May 15, 2009) (discussing the boathouse, St. Joeseph’s University rowing program highlights, and hiring of new coach).


 * SJU Dedicates Boat in Honor of Olympian Renee Hykel '01 (reporting that St. Joseph’s University women’s rowing dedicated a boat to an alum, and discussing alum’s Olympic rowing achievements)


 * Project Profile of Nason & Cullen (architect providing scope of building project)


 * St.Josephs University - Boathouse Floor (TBS consultants summarizing work done on Gillin boathouse to correct buckling floors).

The links above show significant coverage of a variety of detailed aspects of Gillin – approval of the boathouse, criticism of its design, correction of buckling floors, and even the naming of one of the boats housed in the Gillin boathouse. Moreover, the sources are reliable, independent, and range from a national rowing magazine to individual corporate webpages.

You concede that the “Bulletin article does show coverage” but you assert without explanation that it “is not very significant.” Significant coverage means that sources address the subject directly in detail, and no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material.

The Bulletin’s coverage is significant coverage because Gillin is addressed in detail. The article is about the Gillin boathouse and the rowing program of St. Joe’s Prep, which is one of the two programs that comprise the club. The coverage is not split between Gillin and some new coach, as you imply. Rather, the news of the new coach is coverage of Gillin because that portion of the article is about the coach going to St. Joe’s.

Even if the coverage of the coach could be considered a different or unrelated subject (which it cannot), the article need not cover Gillin exclusively to be considered significant coverage. In fact, the subject of the Wikipedia article “need not be the main topic” of the source to be significant coverage.

The same is true of your criticism of the NCAA article. You dismiss the article because the “NCAA article is more about Renee Hykel.” While the article does recite the achievements of Ms. Hykel, that coverage does not undermine the intention of the article: to report that the program named a boat in honor of a graduate who is a world champion and Olympian. Again, significant coverage “need not be the main topic of the source material,” let alone the exclusive topic.

You say of the NCAA and Bulletin articles that “Neither demonstrate coverage outside the local area which the club is based.” The Bulletin is a regional Philadelphia paper, but the NCAA’s reach is national. Regardless, I suspect your comment reflects that we disagree about how the various portions of the notability guideless should be read together (I believe regional coverage is sufficient). But rather than needlessly argue about how the guidelines should be read, I direct you to the “Rowing News” article above. Rowing News is a publication with a national distribution, and I believe it is based in New England. Coverage of the boathouse facility in such a publication demonstrates that even the part of the club that never leaves Philadelphia (the building) is covered outside of the local area.

More troubling than your criticism of the Bulletin and NCAA sources is that you have completely ignored other sources to which I previously directed to you. Of particular concern, you conclude that there was not significant coverage of the club, but you did not address the Philadelphia City Paper article written by the director of Penn Praxis at University of Pennsylvania.

Independent of the alternate criteria, which I discuss below, the Gillin article meets the general notability guideline and the primary criteria because it has been the subject of significant coverage in secondary sources. The article is therefore presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article.

====2.   Alternate Criteria –  The Gillin Boat Club’s activities (a) are national or international in scale, and (b) Information about the organization and its activities can be verified by third-party, independent, reliable sources. ==== Organizations are considered notable if they meet the sourcing requirements of Organizations are usually notable if they meet both of the following standards:
 * 1) these alternate criteria, and/or
 * 2) the primary criteria, and/or
 * 3) the general notability guideline.
 * 1) The scope of their activities is national or international in scale.
 * 2) Information about the organization and its activities can be verified by third-party, independent, reliable sources.  (In other words, they must satisfy the primary criterion for all organizations as described above.) See WP:CLUB.

“An organization is not notable merely because a notable person or event was associated with it. If the organization itself did not receive notice, then the organization is not notable. For example, if a notable person buys a restaurant, the restaurant does not "inherit" notability from its owner.” See Evidence.

While notability cannot be inherited from a person, one must look to the organization’s individual actors or groups of actors when evaluating whether an organization’s activities are national or international in scale.

The activities to be evaluated for Gillin Boat Club are limited to rowing and coaching. The actors to be evaluated are limited to the rowers, coaches, and alums of St. Joe’s Prep and St. Joe’s University. For the sake of brevity, and because I have already covered it in my March post, I will leave out the University and alumni accomplishments for now. However, they are no less accomplished.

Again, I have already directed you to some of these national and international activities of Gillin Boat Club’s St. Joe’s Prep Program, but here are some sources that were not included:


 * Mike Rosewell, Army steal a march on rivals, Times of London (June 30, 2005) (discussing St. Joseph’s Prep at Henley Royal Regatta pursuing the Princess Elizabeth Challenge Cup).


 * Princess Elizabeth Challenge Cup Results, Time of London (July 4, 2005) (reporting the medalists at Henley Royal Regatta).


 * row2k.com (July 2, 2008) (reporting on various races at Henley Royal Regatta and highlighting St. Joe’s).


 * Ed Hewitt, Stotesbury 2008: St. Joe's Sweeps; Bishop Eustace Repeats, Row2k.com (May 17, 2008) (article covering St. Joe’s Sweep of National Championship Race).


 * The Prep Rocks Nationals, Rowing News (June 20, 1998) p. 9.


 * [http://www.row2k.com/polls/poll_archive.cfm?poll=470 Crew of the Week, Row2k Polls (May 19, 2008) (poll results after St. Joe’s Prep swept all 8’s events at Stotesbury high school national championship)

St. Joe’s Prep Varsity Boy’s Eight (plus SJP SWEPT all 5 boy’s eight races in Vespoli’s)
 * | EXCELLENCE ON DISPLAY: WINNING VESPOLI CREWS (Stotesbury Cup:

The links above demonstrate significant coverage of Gillin’s rowers. The sources establish that the club’s boats compete nationally at the Stotesbury Cup Regatta and internationally at the Henley Royal Regatta. Not only do rowers from Gillin regularly compete in these regattas, but St. Joe’s prep regularly wins the Stotesbury Regatta. The Boys Senior Eight boat won in:

1987, 1992, 1995, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2005, and 2008; and the Boys Lightweight Eight won in:

1978, 1979, 1981, 1986, 1993, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2007, 2008

see List of Winner of every Stotesbury Cup Regatta race since 1927

The sources above include articles in websites with national reach like row2k.com and even the storied Times of London has reported on St. Joe’s Prep at the Henley Royal Regatta.

You grossly mischaracterize the coverage of the sources I directed you to when you patronizingly concede that they “do show the club has entered teams into events.” The sources demonstrate that the club entered teams into National and International events, and also show that the teams regularly win that national event.

Furthermore, boats can’t just be “entered” into Henley, they must qualify, and only the fastest boats are admitted. As such, your criticism that you do not believe that the “national or international” alternate criteria standard “is meant to cover a local club sending a team to a national or international event” is unpersuasive.

However inapplicable your critique, it does tempt the rhetorical question: how could the scope of any organization’s activities rise to a national or international scale without sending its constituents to a national or international event?

In conclusion, Gillin Boat Club is notable both for its substantial coverage by secondary sources, and also for its national and international activities.

Given the above detailed explanation, please let me know if you object to me removing the  tag.

Ciricula (talk) 02:14, 9 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I need more time to review in detail, however at first looks - I am still not happy that it meets the policy so I am not removing the tag. Codf1977 (talk) 07:53, 9 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Having looked at the the links, you give, I still don't think the Gillin Boat Club meets the notability guidelines. Firstly disregard ALL the articles from the designers and builders as not independent and secondly as I said before I do not believe the "The scope of their activities is national or international in scale." is ment to cover a local club sending a team to a national or international event. For the moment I fell the tag is justified as I think Gillin Boat Club is not notable and this will alert editors to the issue and they may be able to help or to recommend other options. I do feel at this time the article would be deleted under a AfD, but would like to give it some more time. Codf1977 (talk) 09:50, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Please address sources specifically
Hi Codf1977,

I understand that you are “not happy that it meets the policy.” I respect your feeling that “the article would be deleted under an AfD.” And I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of your belief that the alternate criteria is not “meant to cover a local club sending a team to a national or international event.”

While your happiness, beliefs, and feelings may ultimately be correct, I can’t have a meaningful discussion about the notability of the article unless you focus your criticism on the numerous secondary sources I have presented. You only address two of the articles when you broadly “disregard ALL the articles from the designers and builders as not independent.”

At risk of oversimplifying the analysis of the sources, I ask you to specifically respond to just six sources, all of which are among the sources that you claim to have reviewed but have not indicated are problematic for notability:


 * Mike Rosewell, Army steal a march on rivals, Times of London (June 30, 2005) (discussing St. Joseph’s Prep at Henley Royal Regatta pursuing the Princess Elizabeth Challenge Cup).


 * St. Joe’s Gets Nod For New Boathouse, Rowing News p. 5 (February 28, 1998) (article discussing approval of new boathouse)

Bloat on the Water, City Paper, (April 17-23, 2003)] (director of Penn Praxis at the Graduate School of Fine Arts of the University of Pennsylvania criticizing the architectural design of the Gillin boathouse).
 * [http://citypaper.net/articles/2003-04-17/cityspace.shtml Steinberg,


 * row2k.com (July 2, 2008) (reporting on various races at Henley Royal Regatta and highlighting St. Joe’s).


 * Ed Hewitt, Stotesbury 2008: St. Joe's Sweeps; Bishop Eustace Repeats, Row2k.com (May 17, 2008) (article covering St. Joe’s Sweep of National Championship Race).


 * The Prep Rocks Nationals, Rowing News (June 20, 1998) p. 9.

Additionally, as I have noted before, your concern that the alternate criteria is not “meant to cover a local club sending a team to a national or international event” is misleading or inapplicable for three reasons:

1. Characterizing the Gillin Boat Club’s activities as merely “sending a team to a national or international event” is grossly inaccurate. Even a cursory review of the sources reveals that many boats are winning national competitions annually and regularly competing internationally. To underscore the scope of this activity, there is even coverage of this international activity in the Times of London.

2. Your view – that participating in national and international events does not constitute a scope of activity that is national and international in scale – is incoherent. To the contrary, competing successfully nationally and internationally is one of the only ways that an athletic club can achieve a scope of activities on an national or international scale.

3. Gillin’s activities are national and international in scale; however, even if they were not, that would certainly not mean the article failed to meet the notability requirement. It would only mean that the article did not meet the Alternate criterion. The primary criterion is not undermined by a subject wanting in national activity.

I look forward to your response.

Ciricula (talk) 15:52, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

I am starting to get rather board with this - My understanding is that this is basicly a univeristy rowing club, nothing shown above would indicate it is a very important one. None of the links cover the club in any real detail. The coverage of the international wins are just that of “sending a team to a national or international event” - show me the coverage of the members of the club taking time out to work with and train other teams. Codf1977 (talk) 18:40, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi Codf1977,

Your boredom is apparent from your utter lack of interest in reviewing the sources I have presented and from your response, which is completely devoid of any discussion that could pass for an attempt to evaluate the article under the notability guidelines. You well know that the "importance" of a club is as irrelevant to notability as it is difficult to quantify. Your unmodified refrain of "wins are just that of sending a team to a national or international event” is still as misguided as it was the first two times you made that point to which I respond in detail above.

Your concerns about the article have lost credibility with me, as I can only conclude that you are baiting me by responding without even mentioning the six sources I implored you to examine.

If I had any idea what you meant by your request for "coverage of the members of the club taking time out to work with and train other teams," I might be tempted to look for such coverage. However, I can't even begin to fathom how you have concluded that notability turns on whether Gillin trains its competitors.

If you are so easily bored that you don't have the discipline to evaluate sources under the guidelines, then I suggest you find a hobby that suits you better than reviewing Wikipedia articles for notability.

Ciricula (talk) 20:36, 9 April 2010 (UTC)


 * It was an example of something that might show that they are notable. It is simple - I do not belive the club is notiable under WP:GNG, WP:ORG or WP:CLUB, the links you have provided do, IMO not back up your view, I also suspect that you may have a WP:COI in relation to this club. Leaving the article tagged allows others to take a view on it. Codf1977 (talk) 20:48, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Again, I fail to see why the club would have to train its competitors to attain notability in your eyes. Particularly since I have directed you to sources demonstrating more impressive feats like the boats form Gillin having won the high school national championship more times and more dramatically than any other team.

Your suspicion of a conflict of interest is completely incorrect. I have no connection with Gillin or St. Joe's, nor do I know anyone with such connections. My only bias is that I am invested in showing the notability of the club, as I have now spent so much time in this fruitless discussion. I am disappointed that I have been not been able to pry you from your conclusory statements, let alone persuaded you that the subject is notable.

Ciricula (talk) 21:45, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

The Gillin Boat Club Article Does Not Contain Promotional Wording
As the Gillin article does not contain promotional wording, I ask that you remove the  notice.

WP:PEA directs editors to “forgo unsourced or unexplained peacock terms that merely promote the subject of the article without imparting verifiable information.” While no specific word must be avoided as a hard and fast rule, WP:PEA provides a list of Words and phrases to watch for.

After a thorough review of the Gillin article and the list, I found no objectionable wording – let alone any word in the article that appeared on the list. Therefore, I ask that you remove the peacock tag, or alternatively, specifically indicate the wording you find objectionable. I would be happy to reconsider any wording, and, of coarse, I would greatly appreciate it if you would be willing to lend your editorial hand to improve any language you perceive as being laden with peacock wording.

Ciricula (talk) 02:24, 9 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Removed Codf1977 (talk) 07:52, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for editing the peacock language. I agree that the word “enormous” does not add anything meaningful to the article. However, the term “historic” is informative because the “stretch” of the Schuylkill includes the Schuylkill racecourse and Boathouse Row, which is a national historic landmark. Nonetheless, I am happy to leave it out if you wish.

Ciricula (talk) 15:57, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Images
Hi all, I am currently editing the Schuylkill Navy page, adding pictures of all the member clubs. Would anyone help me out by providing a Gillin Boat Club image? It is the only boathouse I could not find an image for. Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jyp25 (talk • contribs) 18:07, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

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