Talk:Giorgio Napolitano/Archive 1

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Mandate or admin?
instead of sayin his mandate starts may 15, can we say his administration start may 15? User:Briaboru
 * No, in Italy the President is mostly a representative figure. GhePeU 15:12, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

By the way Carlo Azeglio Ciampi is still technically the President of the Republic (his mandate ends on May 18). However, on May 15 he will resign, so that Napolitano might be sworn in that day as his successor. --Angelo 15:49, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Article focus and Wikinews
I'm quite surprised to see so much editing here. This article should focus on the person. I would suggest using Wikinews to document the event, and only insert election-related information here when the dust will settle. -- Gennaro Prota &thinsp;(talk) 16:51, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Gerontocracy?
Is it realistic to elect somebody who is of such advanced age? E.g. the USSR did not exactly beneift from the rule (or lack thereof) of Andropov and Chernenko... This issue should be discussed in the article. 195.70.32.136 10:59, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Sandro Pertini of the Italian Socialist Party, elected in 1978 at the age of 82 (one year older than Napolitano), is widely recognized in Italy as the best president ever. By the way, remember the president of the Republic has a very few power. --Angelo 11:26, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Photo
The main picture of Napolitano does look like a joke (Neapolitan caricature?), who did insert it? Plch 12:07, 11 May 2006 (UTC) >>>I have controlled and the tag says 'frenchman'! I think I'll delete it soon!

occupying forces
"A graduate in law, Napolitano was active in the opposition against the nazi-fascist troops, founding in 1942 an anti-fascist and communist group which took part in several actions against the occupying forces." what exactly is meant by "occupying forces"? In 1942 Italy was still an ally of the Germans. --Greece666 20:52, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe it means the forces that were at war or something, I'll have to confirm my sources iThink4u 16:01, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
 * It means simply the nazifascists. --Angelo 21:04, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Out of curiosity, how is "graduating with a degree in law" to be taken? He was 17 in 1942! :) -- Gennaro Prota &thinsp;(talk) 06:29, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Angelo: He obviously means the Germans and the fascists. However, I think it is somehow misguiding to describe the fascists (in 1942 they were governing Italy) and the Germans (in 1942 they were allies of the Italians or at least of the fascist government) as "occupying forces". whether we like it or not (i dont) these people were governing the country. I think it would be more appropiate to simply say that "Napolitano joined the resistance". --Greece666 13:05, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Fixed. According to the Italian Wikipedia he graduated in 1947. GhePeU 07:07, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * After 8 september 1943 Italy was officially _occupied_ by german forces and by their fascist supporters (Repubblica di Salò). On 8 sept a treaty was signed by the new government and the Allies, where Italy surrended and joined the allied side. Partisans and resistance fought on mountains along with USA troops, then the phrase took part in several actions against the occupying forces. is formally correct. --Jollyroger 15:48, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

After Mussolini was removed from power, he was rescued by an airborne nazi SWAT team lead by Otto Skorzeny. The Musso then set up a fascists "Republic of Salo" which fought alongside the Wehrmacht to stop the anglo-saxon advance towards north. Eventually Musso was captured by italian freedom fighters, shot dead and hanged. There was a lot-of anti-fascist popular resistance in the Salo republic area.

Italy
Here is a man who would doubtless be living a luxurious life as a retired Soviet satrap while democrats languished in jail, if the Cold War had turned out differently, and they make him President! ReeseM 03:42, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia talk pages are not political forums, please keep the political chatter out of these talk pages and use them for their true purpose...discussing the article. Thank you.--Jersey Devil 06:22, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Anyway, you are an idiot, Reese. --Jollyroger 15:48, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Either way, its better than a facist president. Left-Wing Power! -- GorillazFan  Adam  19:47, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Big scandal
Here in Hungary there is a big media scandal about his election for italian pesidency and may even invoke diplomatic measures. G. N. was a card holding member of the italian communist party and in late 1956 he infamously voiced his support for the soviet military invasion to crush the hungarian revolution and freedom fight. He refused to retract on that declaration ever since. The modern post-communist Hungarian Republic officially defines itself as heir to the short-lived October 1956 democratic government and so it may be impossible for G. N. to visit Hungary as an official if he still thinks the soviet invasion was right.

(Otherwise Italy has two big problems, the commies and the mafia. If those two were eliminated Italy could become a strong industrial power, where honest-to-god money-counting capitalists do not need to worry about paying weekly bribes to the godfathers and labour strikes every second day. Currently Italy is heading for a value to north, scum to south split, a disintegration much like the former Yugoslavia.) 195.70.32.136 10:43, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh great, I was missing the guy who watched some movies and already knew all the problems about Italy and how to solve them. Please, the world survived without your stunnigly brilliant political analysis until yesterday, I bet it can go on for a little while without other poor excuses for comments like that. "honest-to-god money-counting capitalists" oh my god, this ain't scooby doo, things are a little more complicated than that. Even in pizza-land CarrKnight 10:46, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * In the italian version of this page the Hungarian facts are reported. Napolitano has since long declared that he regrets and is tormented by his position in those days. (AL)


 * Gee, I really feel for bad for the guy. Attila226 16:17, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Defamation
An anonymous user just inserted a paragraph describing an alleged refund fraud. This news is unverified, the source is the site "Silvio Berlusconi Fan Club" who cite "Libero", a right-wing Italian newspaper very close to Silvio Berlusconi. According to the Italian Wikipedia there are no other sources for this gossip. GhePeU 10:43, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Can't revert anymore. Please remove that unverified gossip. GhePeU 10:47, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the comments above: Libero is a right-wing paper well known for its propagandistic attack. If there is no other source to verify this news, it should be removed. 12:09, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Moreover anonymous user 84.222.114.138 keeps inserting that unverified gossip in a unacceptable POV manner. GhePeU 11:39, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree... Libero is the closest italian newspaper to Silvio BerlusconiDudo85


 * Libero is closer to Lega Nord, ("Northern League"), an ultra-right wing party. Anyway, the refund fraud did not involved directly Napolitano (who was only interviewed by the german TV "RTL" on the question), but only some german and austrian politicians. --Jollyroger 15:41, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Libero is not close to Lega Nord, AT ALL! It is only close to Silvio Berlusconi and (some of) his party. Moreover, Lega Nord used to hate the person of Silvio Berlusconi, until he gave Lega Nord a substantial decisional power in his 1994 first government. --Emc² ( CONTACT ME ) 19:17, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Question about lifetime senate seat and presidency
Does he now have to give up his senate seat? I'm a bit unfamiliar with this bit of Italian political trivia.  young  american (talk) 17:22, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, he does. --Angelo 18:32, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * But I have another futile question: is he still a senator during his term? (BTW, if he isn't, our lead section shall be reworded) -- Gennaro Prota &thinsp;(talk) 16:53, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

He was a senator for life before election and will be after his term expires. But according to the Italian Constitution (art.84)[], "The office of president of the republic is incompatible with any other office". So technically, he is not a senator for life right now. (miic) HE HAS A DAUGHTER NAMED ISABELLA

Vandalism
As the article is experiencing continuous vandalism by anonymous IP users, I suggest to semi-protect it (i.e. allow changes for it just by registered users). --Angelo 15:38, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Agree. I just hate the fact that everywhen someone becomes very important, his page has to be protected against the usual idiot vandals. --DavidAlexandrov 21:09, 11 May 2006 (UTC)


 * It seems that vandals were just waiting for unprotection. What about closing the gates again? -- Gennaro Prota &thinsp;(talk) 16:55, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Today the article had been vandalized just one time. I think one time ain't enough. --Angelo 17:04, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm... I was almost convinced I had seen three deletions of contents. Maybe I just navigated too fast the chain of diffs ("Once isn't enough and twice is too much"... Lino Banfi docet ;)). -- Gennaro Prota &thinsp;(talk) 17:51, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately having an ex-communist as President of the Repubblic in a chapitalistic country and in the XXI century leeds a lot of vandals, from both sides. Napolitano has had a past as many communist in Italy and this puts his fans in a difficult position (how to conceive his past communism -I must believe that now he is not communist anymore- with a democratic power in the present) and his enemies in an angry position (how to conceive to live in a democratic country having a President with an anti-democratic past). To protect the page will not necessarily help the truth about such complicate personality. --151.27.23.141 15:10, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Garbled trivia
'In his youth, Napolitano was an actor. He played in a comedy by Salvatore Di Giacomo and as leading actor in Viaggio a Cardiff by William Butler Yeats, both at Teatro Mercadante in Naples. He later measured himself against Joyce and Eliot.'

There is not, as far as I know, a play by W.B. Yeats called 'Viaggio a Cardiff'; no Yeats bibliography I've been able to consult has any such title or anything that could be translated into such a title. Also, I don't know what the third sentence in this extract means. I suspect that English is not the first language of whoever wrote it. Lexo 12:37, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Viaggio a Cardiff could be a translated name, but don't know of what play.
 * Anyway, it is a copyviol from a newspaper, just translated. Should be rewritten anyway --Jollyroger 14:19, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

EU are terrorist?
I removed this claim about the Eurosceptics being defined terrorist by President Napolitano. What he actually said is:


 * "Si fa terrorismo psicologico, agitando lo spettro di un Super-Stato europeo, quasi fosse un grande mostro governato da chi sa quale potenza occulta che invade tutti i campi"

In English it sounds like
 * "It is psychological terrorism to suggest the spectre of a European superstate, like it would be a big monster led by such a hdden power invading all the fields"

There's no mention about Eurosceptics being defined terrorists as you can see. --Angelo 01:04, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

The "Slavic barbarians" incident
I made it more clear that the man awarded a medal was a WW2 fascist (it would be nice to have his name, it would make the sentence more readable). I also added some of the highlights of his speach. Some of it is just plain laughable. "The greatest crime of the 20th century"? Why, according to European law he's ripe for prison time, for Holocaust denial... Slavic expansionism? Please. Frankly, I think the poor guy's either lost his mind, or is catering to a (hopefully small) audience of revisionist neo-fascists who would like more than anything to forget that Italy was during WW2 one of the axis powers. Either way, this incident is no laughing matter - it's a very serious affair. TomorrowTime 19:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC)


 * He didn't say that the foibe massacres were the greatest crime of the 20th century, but that they were "one of the barbarities of past century," and his speech condemned the Italian parties who minimized or denied the killing for "political blindness" or "diplomatic self-interests and international convenience." Moreover, nobody can deny that Yugoslavia ("Slavic" refers to Yugoslavia) in 1945 wanted to annex Istria and Venetia Giulia: with the 1947 peace treaty they did it. GhePeU 01:04, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Ghepeu, Napolitano was obviously buying votes from right-oriented voters. This is common policy in many countries. But I think he went too far with this. Luckily for him, EC took his side and protected him, and he managed to silently excuse to Croatian president, so that the entire presedan is forgotten. The problem of esuli and foibe is somewhat overrated in part because some of those people would like to forget their fascist past by saying "all did crimes". But not all were on the side of Nazis. But let's not forget that Italy started to pay out pensions to it's fascist officers in Croatia and Slovenia after the fall of Yugosavia, also to buy votes from extremly-right oriented voters (fascist). I beleive Napolitano has lost some of his international credits with support of this kind of behaviour. I for sure know he and Prodi lost their Croatian supporters, which don't like the locals (in Slovenia and Croatia) hating Italians because of what some former fascist yell at their rallies "back home". Remember the "Our Tito" incident in Gorizia,... --Sinjanin


 * Buying what? The Presidency of the Italian Republic is a well-known non-partisan office, every president is supposed to resign from his party before to take that position. Anyway, this is not the right place to discuss this stuff, Wikipedia is not a forum. I am going to change your claim about Serrentino: he was killed by the Tito supporters during the foibe massacres, that is the reason why he probably received this posthumous honour, not because he was fascist. --Angelo 23:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Buying votes for the right-oriented voters? Napolitano is a communist! Why should he do that? Sinjanin, you know nothing of Italian politics, and it does show. So please, shut up. --Gspinoza 20:24, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * How relevant is that he is communist if he gives the medal to the fascist and by that giving the tribute to the fascism??!!!???--Anto (talk) 19:26, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Taken out of Politics of Itlaly
"The current President of the Italian Republic is Giorgio Napolitano, and he was described by US President Barack Obama "''as somebody who has the admiration of the Italian people because of not only his longstanding service but also his integrity and his graciousness. And I just want to confirm that everything about him that I had heard is true. He's an extraordinary gentleman, a great leader of this country, and the fact that he has been such a gracious host is something that we all greatly appreciate.''"." belongs more here or in related article Weaponbb7 (talk) 01:33, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

italia
de president —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.84.110.174 (talk) 16:18, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

King Umberto & Red Prince
"He has been nicknamed "Re Umberto" (i.e. "King Umberto") both for his alleged physical likeness to Umberto II of Italy and for his measured manners. Another nickname he has been given is "Il principe rosso" ("The red prince"), with "red" alluding to his Communist leanings." I've never heared these nicknames for Napolitano. Where did you find them?--95.246.134.165 (talk) 11:05, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Post-nominals out
I have deleted the post-nominal letters (Giorgio Napolitano, OMRI OML) as unsourced. There are not used in Italy and there seems to be no evidence that Napolitano was ever awarded the OML (Cavaliere del lavoro). This site of the Presidency of the Italian Republic lists only the Knight Grand Cross of the Order of Merit (the post-nominal "OMRI") as the sole decoration given to Mr. Napolitano. --Pxos (talk) 11:03, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Napolitano's efforts towards Italian-Slovene-Croatian reconciliation
The article speaks of the 2007 speech regarding the foibe, but it doesn't mention anything about what has occured after that.

Napolitano's views of the issue have since changed drastically. He has adopted a reconciliatory and friendly attitude towards Slovenia and Croatia, acknowledging not only the Yugoslav-committed atrocities but also the ones committed by Fascist Italy against Slovenes and Croats.

The greatest change came after the 2010 Trieste concert which was attended at the highest level by Napolitano, the President of Slovenia and the President of Italy : http://www.up-rs.si/up-rs/uprs-eng.nsf/dokumentiweb/1658A588FA9786D3C125776800518085?OpenDocument

Ever since, the relations between Napolitano, Croatia and Italy have been great, with many examples of reconciliatory attempts, such as Napolitano's visit in Croatia: http://www.emirates247.com/news/world/croatian-italian-leaders-honour-wwii-victims-2011-09-04-1.416526

Not to mention the recent speech Napolitano held in the Slovene Parliament, making him the first foreign head of state ever to address it (except for Vaclav Havel in 1993 and Thomas Klestil in 1994, but that happened during much different circumstances): http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/nations/slovenia/2012/07/09/Italy-Slovenia-Napolitano-visit-highlighted-press_7163926.html

I think it would be good to include this in the article. It's important in terms of reconciliation and friendship between the nations, and Napolitano's role in this.

Justice and Reason (talk) 15:03, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

President of the Republic
I'm italian, and do not exist a "President of Italy", but a "President of the Italian Republic", in Italy simply called "President of the Republic". "President of Italy" is, at the limit, the "President of the Council of Ministers" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.13.151.15 (talk) 18:05, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
 * What he is usually called is inconsequential. The official title is that of "President", and the country name in English is "Italy". Hence, he should be President of Italy. Silvrous   Talk  18:34, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The Italian Constitution always refers to the President as the "President of the Republic", and that is therefore the official title. "President of Italy" is both uncommon and misleading, since it might lead to comparisons to other countries' positions (e.g. the US): in Italy the President of the Republic holds authority, not power, which is instead exercised by the "President of the Council of Ministers", who can be referred to "President of Italy" anyway. --Itrucid (talk) 18:31, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Come on, the rôles of offices of like name within different constitutional frameworks are different, as far as the constitutions are different. The Austrian and the German Bundespräsident are in both countries referred with exactly this title (or abbreviated Präsident), despite the fact that the Austrian president has a highly powerful position (comparable with the French one or the ancient Weimar-German one). Heads of State of republics are commonly called presidents. Their respective responsibilites differ, from: all (US) over "leading figure of politics, but no daily governing work" (France) to "symbol of unity, checker of constitutionality, conductor of formalities, and giving appeals" (Germany), with "theoretically French, but uses only about as much power as German" (Austria) in between. I'm not so sure where Italy comes (for reason of lack of knowledge), but from what I've heard the president is not unimportant with the present parliament as it is.
 * The President of the Council of Ministers is, on the other hand, referred to as Prime Minister in English.--93.133.235.37 (talk) 15:32, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Religion
Giorgio Napolitano is not a Roman Catholic, he is known as an atheist. As such he is enlisted among Italian atheirst personalities in it.wikipedia: [] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aki 001 (talk • contribs) 12:03, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

The page referenced in it.wikipedia.org has been cancelled. Elio1 (talk) 11:45, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Dubious
As far as I know there are no recent declarations of Napolitano stating clearly he's an avowed atheist. He's likely irreligious or agnostic.--Carnby (talk) 20:19, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Recent? The citation is from July 2012. The likelihood of someone who has been an atheist for most of his adult life (conservatively 65+ years) suddenly becoming anything else is not only highly unlikely but in a sitting President of a strongly Catholic (i.e. religious) country practically impossible to pass unreported. Unless you can find a reliable source which states otherwise adding the dubious tag is at best petty. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 20:50, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * It is recent but it is not an interview where Napolitano states he's an avowed atheist. Besides Napolitano is well known in Italy to have changed many times his thoughts: first Fascist, then anti-Fascist, then Stalinist, then Eurocommunist, then Social Democrat, then Liberal (he was the main supporter of Mario Monti's liberal government)...--Carnby (talk) 22:52, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
 * It's clear that you have no idea of who is Napolitano and what means doing politics in a country like Italy: obviusly Napolitano have never been Fascist or Stalinist or Liberal or whatsoever otherwise he would not be the president. He has always been a servant of the state. 109.205.249.156 (talk) 13:03, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
 * He was a member of Gioventù Universitaria Fascista (GUF), he approved Soviet invasion of Hungary, he nominated liberal Mario Monti as senator for life and then president of Council of Ministers. Is this enough?--Carnby (talk) 14:00, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
 * It's enough just for someone who does not understand what living under a dictatorship means: most of the members of the ruling party in any dictatorship were members just for opportunistic reasons. It's quite easy to judge having lived only under a democracy. And nominating Mario Monti does not mean anything regarding Napolitano's political views, the President of the Italian Republic nominates the candidate who has most probabilities to obtain a vote of confidence in the Parliament. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.13.33.221 (talk) 21:23, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

90th year - a matter of style and of interest.
I added the fact in the summary that he resigned and that he was in his 90th year when he did so. Someone changed that to the fact that he was in the ninth year of his presidency (actually tenth, by the same reason I wrote "ninetieth year"). It's not an important fact either way, but I feel that a democraticallly elected world leader being nearly 90 is of more significance than the simple length of his presidency, which had already been stated. Silas Maxfield (talk) 09:33, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

I changed it back but included the length of the presidency in the same sentence. Then it got edited again, changing "ninetieth" to "ninth". So it seems people who don't understand English are changing what I wrote about the President. I have now changed it to digits and added a html comment in the hope that whoever it is begins to understand. Silas Maxfield (talk) 20:57, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

They didn't understand, and changed "in his 90th year" to the rather more clunky "at nearly age 90". Edit war over, I won't bother again. Silas Maxfield (talk) 15:15, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Giorgio Napolitano
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