Talk:Giosue Gallucci/GA2

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Reviewer: ComputerJA (talk · contribs) 17:31, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Review
Hi DonCalo, I'll be happy to review this one. I specialize in Mexican crime bosses biographies so I'm excited to take a look at this. My review will be divided in two parts. In my first part, I will post any grammatical/prose corrections needed. In my second review, I will try to go through every source and verify the information (as well as checking for close paraphrasing). I'm going to try to get this done before Sunday (today), but if not, please be patient. I will work to get this soon for you. ComputerJA ( ☎  •  ✎  ) 17:31, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Since DonCalo hasn't edited in a while, I'm going to complete some minor fixes now and if they don't return in a couple days, I'll try and tackle some of the bigger issues brought up by the reviewer. I'll also add some comments of my own when I feel their needed. Libertybison (talk) 21:13, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Part 1
Comments: Overall, the article has great flow. There were some issues here and there with the prose and layout. The ones I wanted you to address are below, but I will be doing some minor copyedits along the way for other things I did not mention. I will do part 2 later and post it here. ComputerJA ( ☎  •  ✎  ) 20:51, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I've made some of the part 1 recommendations and left some, mostly relating to paraphrasing just in case DonCalo returns in the next day or so. If they don't, I'll return to them myself. I've also added a few comments. Libertybison (talk) 00:23, 6 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Introduction
 * - What does old-style mean?
 * I'm not sure, so I've removed it. Libertybison (talk) 22:40, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * From Naples to New York


 * – For biographies, I usually see Early life in this situation. Would you be OK with that?
 * I'm okay with that. Libertybison (talk) 21:41, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – add comma after report, and remove “had”
 * Done. Libertybison (talk) 21:41, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – Shorten to: 1862 Naples police report
 * Done, also see 2 comments below. Libertybison (talk) 21:41, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – What is a Giuseppe? I’m guessing it's a mafia family member. Can we link him/her or make it clearer?
 * They mean it's somebody with the same surname, Gallucci. See below. Libertybison (talk) 21:41, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – Remove the first name since it is already stated before.
 * The report is from 1862, before Giosue Gallucci was born, so it's a different person. I think it's supposed to suggest they may be related. I'm not sure if the source quoted actually says this or the editor is inferring it themselves. Libertybison (talk) 21:41, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
 * User:Libertybison: How do you feel about me adding this sentence as a footnote: "An 1862 Naples police report identified another man named Giosuè Gallucci and Giuseppe as camorristi − Italian for a members of the Camorra −, but it is unknown if these were relatives". I feel this is somewhat out of place and might confuse the readers. ComputerJA ( ☎  •  ✎  ) 17:27, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I think that would be a great idea. Libertybison (talk) 17:48, 6 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – Always can be a WP:WEASEL word. Perhaps change to “he publically denied this?”
 * Done. Libertybison (talk) 21:41, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – link alibi
 * Done. Libertybison (talk) 21:41, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – grand jury is usually not capitalized.
 * Done. Libertybison (talk) 21:41, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – last name only.
 * Done Libertybison (talk) 21:41, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – I think the quote may be a bit long. I think you can paraphrase the charges sentence (2nd sentence)
 * Done. Libertybison (talk) 20:17, 25 March 2017 (UTC)


 * - perhaps you can link these per WP:REDLINK. The last two have articles in Italian Wikipedia.
 * The two Italian Wikipedia article are for different people with the same names from the 20th century. I can't tell if the brothers are notable enough for their own articles, I don't know how notable they are in Italian criminal history. They're sort of in the background in Giosue's story, at least in the U.S. part. Libertybison (talk) 21:54, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – link deported with deported
 * Done Libertybison (talk) 21:41, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * King of Italy


 * – Do the sources say when?
 * Presumably it was since Gallucci's second arrival in the U.S. Removed eventually, it's sort of used as a weasel word here anyway. Libertybison (talk) 01:45, 7 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – Change to “He became”
 * Done. Libertybison (talk) 22:38, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * . – Consider rephrasing “nobody” per WP:WEASEL.
 * Removed. Libertybison (talk) 23:06, 25 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – “commonly” instead?
 * Done. Libertybison (talk) 22:38, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – change amounts to US$2,000 and US$3,000
 * Done. Libertybison (talk) 22:38, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Political influence
 * – Never seen this phrasing before. Would de-facto be better?
 * I think using near would be better than de facto, so I've changed it to that. Libertybison (talk) 22:56, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – Would you be able to spread out these sources? Seems like a minor WP:CITEKILL issue, especially because it should not be difficult to cite the New York Herald for these two quotes.
 * This already seems to have been done. Libertybison (talk) 20:33, 19 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – This paragraph is almost all about quotes. Please paraphrase accordingly.
 * I don't understand what you're asking. All the quotes are Gallucci's opinion/interpretation so they can't really be paraphrased. Do you want the size of the quote reduced? Libertybison (talk) 22:58, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Quotes can always be paraphrased. But this isn't my biggest concern with the article. It is mostly GangRule as a source. ComputerJA ( ☎  •  ✎  ) 13:43, 20 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Killing his brother?


 * – I do not think the title name is appropriate. Perhaps change to Death of sibling, that way we give equal weight to all points of view.
 * I agree and have made the change. Libertybison (talk) 22:50, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – remove had
 * Done. Libertybison (talk) 22:50, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – link extortion
 * Done. Libertybison (talk) 22:50, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – link suspended sentence
 * Done. Libertybison (talk) 22:50, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – use his first name only as you did before in this section.
 * Done. Libertybison (talk) 22:59, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – first name too, unless you want to stick with using his last name throughout the entire article, though it might be difficult in this section given Gennaro’s mention.
 * Done. Libertybison (talk) 22:59, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – what does lame mean? Also, be careful with WP:WEASEL. When I write biographies about criminals, I usually put “high-ranking” instead of powerful. Consider revising this to avoid weasel words.
 * Removed weasel words. It says "Zopo" was the leader of a gang in the next paragraph which should be enough. Crippled would be better than lame but it might be an unnecessary detail without more information about what was wrong with him. Libertybison (talk) 01:32, 7 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Fighting over underworld control
 * - This can be paraphrased.
 * This is a direct quote of Daniello, it can't be reworded and still be an accurate quote of what he said. Libertybison (talk) 20:07, 25 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – Change to: The report also explained
 * Done. Libertybison (talk) 23:21, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – WP:REDLINK for these? Not sure, I will leave it up to you.
 * Done. I've also tried to improve the wording of that sentence as well. Libertybison (talk) 23:21, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – remove link from Black Hand since it has been used elsewhere, per WP:OVERLINK.
 * Done Libertybison (talk) 23:21, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – does not italicize per MOS:ITALICS. Do “King of the White Slavers”.
 * Done. Libertybison (talk) 23:21, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – Change to US$10,000
 * Done. Libertybison (talk) 23:21, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – Should the brothers be red linked per WP:REDLINK?
 * I'm not sure, but I'm going to say no for now because of a lack of information I could find on them and the stricter policy on creating biography articles on criminals. But if I'm wrong and articles end up being created later we can just add links to those articles then. Libertybison (talk) 21:08, 19 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – change he to Del Gaudio.
 * Done. Libertybison (talk) 23:30, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – remove ever.
 * Done. Libertybison (talk) 23:30, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Murder
 * – what does the old outfit mean? This sentence is a bit confusing, consider revising.
 * Done. Libertybison (talk) 20:17, 19 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – his last groups of bodyguards were shot and killed? Let me know and I will copyedit it a bit.
 * The Tuesday May 15, 1015 New York Herald article said Gallucci's last bodyguard (just one person) had been shot and killed on May 8th (or as the article put it "a week ago Saturday night"). Libertybison (talk) 20:46, 19 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – “was wounded” and “were killed”
 * Done. Libertybison (talk) 23:54, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – who are the Morellos? Consider putting the Morellos clan or something like
 * I've clarified that it was the Morello gang. Libertybison (talk) 23:54, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – does it say when?
 * The newspaper article says that he told a friend about a week prior, so I've now added that. Libertybison (talk) 20:30, 19 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – idiom, consider revising.
 * Done. Also moved it to the previous paragraph where it would make more sense. Libertybison (talk) 21:01, 19 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – Do you have access to the source? Seems like this is using WP:WEASEL again. Perhaps rephrase “one of the biggest funerals for organized crime members” or something like that?
 * I've removed the phrase. Libertybison (talk) 21:01, 19 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – link hearse.
 * Done. Libertybison (talk) 23:50, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – remove first name.
 * Done. Libertybison (talk) 23:50, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – most underworld killings in NYC? I would specify to reduce the scope.
 * I've removed the editorializing phrase and just kept it focused on Gallucci's death. I think it's more encyclopedic that way. Libertybison (talk) 23:50, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – change to US$300
 * Done Libertybison (talk) 23:50, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – say “his son and him”
 * Done Libertybison (talk) 23:50, 5 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Burial and legacy
 * – italicize the newspaper
 * Done. Libertybison (talk) 00:09, 6 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – US$350,000
 * Done. Libertybison (talk) 00:09, 6 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – US$3,402
 * Done. Libertybison (talk) 00:09, 6 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Legacy
 * – according to whom?
 * The some is the blog post used as the source. It appear to be the blogger's opinion from watching the movie and not come from any source mentioned by the blogger. I'd recommend removing this Godfather fact a unsourced. But I'd like to wait a day or so to see if DonCalo returns in case they might be able to better source the claim. This comment also applies to point below. Libertybison (talk) 00:09, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I've since removed the claim. Libertybison (talk) 02:47, 6 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – remove seems and put is, and remove the last name.
 * See above. Libertybison (talk) 17:19, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Part 2
Comments: Now this is the part that gets difficult. I found some serious close paraphrasing issues here and there, and those need to get addressed immediately. In some parts, the sources did not support the text (usually off by a few critical details). This often happens when writing an article with a bunch of sources so I get it. Chances are the text is supported by another source cited elsewhere, but we still need to make sure the text is 100% across the board. Another of my biggest concerns is Gang Rule. Does not seem like a reliable sources at first glance, so I want to get your input. I understand it has valuable information (since this happened over 100 years ago, the information we have is scarce and it's easy to use Gang Rule to update an article). Please let me know what you think. ComputerJA ( ☎  •  ✎  ) 01:33, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I submitted a question to the reliable source noticeboard to ask them about GangRule.com. Please go here to follow the discussion. ComputerJA ( ☎  •  ✎  ) 01:52, 6 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Is Gang Rule a reliable source? I have my doubts.
 * I think it depends on the specific article on the site. Unfortunately, I don't think this applies to the biographies of the Galluccis, with the exception of the information that comes from Genarro's death certificate which is shown and used as a source. Libertybison (talk) 08:02, 7 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – Please add the entire DOB since it is in the infobox. Remember to use a reliable source for this.
 * Other sources, including Critchley, say 1864 not 1865. This appears to be an error in GangRule. I was trying to figure out why the Gennaro page was cited. It turns out that it includes an image of Gennaro's death certificate with his parents names on it. Although Giosue and Gennaro could have different mothers. Libertybison (talk) 23:48, 6 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – According to both sources, the murderer was Joshio Galluca. There is no mention of Galluci.
 * It looks like it's just written nearly phonetically. Critchley's book also cites a newspaper article about the story, although it's in a footnote (pg. 274 n35) Libertybison (talk) 23:48, 6 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – This quote does not mention Josephine and fails to establish how this quote is related to the murder. This was actually said in 1893. Again, one of the sources said that Gallucci was walking with Josephine when she was killed. He was arrested, but the man in question was Joshio from what I understood. Gallucci was arrested and released the next day per source
 * You're incorrect the article you link to is from 1898, not 1893. The letter in the article says 1898, Chronicling America site says it's from 1898, one of the other articles on the page refers the Democrats' 1896 platform, and one of the articles refers to annexation debate over Hawaii which didn't occur until 1898. (Grover Cleveland the president from 1893-1897 was against the annexation of Hawaii.) As for the comment about "Joshio" see my comment above. Libertybison (talk) 21:24, 19 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – No mention of Gennaro in source.
 * I've reworded the paragraph to reflect that. Libertybison (talk) 21:40, 19 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – The source spells his name with an s, Vicenso. Was it misspelled?
 * I assume so, misspelled Italian names are common in newspapers of this period. Libertybison (talk) 08:02, 7 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – This was literally copied verbatim. Please remove or paraphrase this.
 * Done. Libertybison (talk) 20:31, 25 March 2017 (UTC)


 * . – which of the sources supports this? Please add a citation for this sentence.
 * Added source and correction, he wasn't acquitted no charges were filed because the coroner's jury determined it was self-defense. Libertybison (talk) 05:34, 25 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – Plagiarism. Please revise.
 * Done. Libertybison (talk) 20:31, 25 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – He died the following day, per source.
 * Fixed. Libertybison (talk) 21:34, 19 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – This is not mentioned or suggested in the source.
 * Removed. Libertybison (talk) 08:02, 7 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – This uses Gang Rule, which I am not sure how I feel about its reliability. Have other reliable sources used Gang Rule?


 * – I read the entire excerpt on him and the newspaper did not describe him as legitimate. The source starts explaining his murder and then how he “controls” businesses. I’d say revise this to something that describes him more as a mafia boss.
 * I've removed the whole sentence. Libertybison (talk) 20:12, 24 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – Source says Genario, and no mention of his DOB. Perhaps we can add a footnote for the different ways the name was spelled. Let me know if you need help.
 * I've removed to DOB. I don't know if a footnote is necessary, maybe we can just add a non-newspaper source citation with the correct spelling along with the newspaper source? Libertybison (talk) 21:48, 19 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – Source says the 14th, but then again it is Gang Rule.
 * The New York Times article says the 20th, Gang Rule is wrong. Libertybison (talk) 20:25, 24 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – Major close paraphrasing from Gang Rule.


 * – No mention of this nickname in source. He was known as the King of the Black Hand, per source.
 * I found this 1913 article that refers to him by this nickname. Libertybison (talk) 05:31, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
 * The Mike Dash book also mentions that nickname but I can't see the page number on Google Books. I'll use that as a source once I find the page number. Libertybison (talk) 20:29, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Added source for nickname. Libertybison (talk) 05:34, 25 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – The source never explicitly mentions Gallucci. I could not find the quotes either.


 * – no mention of this on either of the two sources, though one is Gang Rule.
 * They mention that it was for a concealed weapon, the Sullivan Act link explains that it was the law behind those changes. Libertybison (talk) 03:23, 25 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – close paraphrasing.
 * I've removed that sentence along with some slight rewording of the rest of the paragraph. Libertybison (talk) 20:51, 25 March 2017 (UTC)


 * – the source seems to be unreliable.
 * Removed. Libertybison (talk) 02:43, 6 March 2017 (UTC)


 * ComputerJA has put this review on hold for a week to see if DonCalo will return by then. I think that's a good idea, so I'll hold off on addressing other review comments until 13 March but I'd still like to try to work on the review if we don't hear from DonCalo by then. Libertybison (talk) 20:29, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Maybe we should still wait another week to see if DonCalo returns before starting to address the other review comments. Libertybison (talk) 06:39, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
 * @Libertybison - I'm somewhat undecided about pushing the date, since GangRule is an unreliable source and it is used a lot in this article. I can access the books GangRule reportedly goes by and help DonCalo or other editors update the article appropriately, but that would mean we would need another reviewer for GA3. ComputerJA ( ☎  •  ✎  ) 15:27, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
 * If you feel like you can no longer be a reviewer for this article, than it may be best to end it now. Otherwise, I'd recommend waiting another week for DonCalo. Libertybison (talk) 16:17, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

Second opinion
Hi, I want to request for a second opinion. Libertybison has done a great job of improving my requests/concerns in DonCalo's (the original nominator) absence. I left the review open for one week and was then asked to push it for another to see if DonCalo returned. The article is well-written, comprehensive, and overall it looks ripe for promotion. My only concern is with its use of the source GangRule.com. I sent this concern to the Reliable Source Noticeboard a couple of weeks ago. GangRule.com reportedly is based off two reliable books, The Origin of Organized Crime in America and The First Family. But there is no way to know which pages GangRule is basing its information from. That is my only concern with the article now. ComputerJA ( ☎  •  ✎  ) 13:54, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
 * My personal opinion is that GangRule is not reliable enough for the way it is used (which seems to reflects the reliable noticeboard and your opinion). Some of the information it is cited to falls into the 2b category so I would fail it if that cannot be resolved. However, I read that you have access to the reliable sources and might be willing to add these citations to the article, but would not feel comfortable passing it. Since it has come this far, if you are agreeable, I am willing to offer my services as a second reviewer for the 2b criteria if you replace the GangRule cites. AIR corn (talk) 07:20, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for accepting to take this review. I just ordered The Origin of Organized Crime in America through an interlibrary loan (it usually takes about two weeks max to arrive). The First Family book should be in my hands earlier since I just put it on hold at the library. I'll let you know when I get a hold of them and will work with User:Libertybison to promote this to GA. Thanks again! ComputerJA ( ☎  •  ✎  ) 23:06, 1 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Update: I already have one book. I'll get the other one this weekend and take a look at them and see if we can use them. Cheers, ComputerJA ( ☎  •  ✎  ) 14:55, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I have this watchlisted, but my watchlist is pretty crowded nowadays. Feel free to ping me or drop a talk page notice when you are ready for me to take a look if I don't respond. AIR corn (talk) 09:11, 17 May 2017 (UTC)


 * I think we will have to fail this one. I have the two books with me and I cannot seem to be able to reconcile the article's text with the sources. Here are a few examples (this is not the entire list of things needed to be addressed. I stopped after realizing that everything I was checking from GangRule had some issues):
 * – none of the books mention 10th, nor his parents. The previous nominator got the parents’ names from Gennaro’s death certificate, which lists his parents. But there is no mention of Giosue in the certificate.


 * – First thing, the last sentence is close paraphrasing. In addition, I could not find all this information on Critchley’s book. The only mention of Genarro is on page 109 (only mentions his death). There is a short mention of Genarro’s death in Dash's book too, but not this.
 * Rephrased and I found another source about letters claiming that Giosuè had been responsible for the killing of his brother DonCalo (talk) 20:34, 2 May 2023 (UTC)


 * – There are several mentions of Mulberry Street in Dash’s book (and crime activity there), but no direct correlation to Galluci. No mention of this street in the other book.


 * – Could not find this title in both books (nor in Nelli’s).
 * Replaced with "The Boss" as he is also called in many sources. DonCalo (talk) 10:27, 2 May 2023 (UTC)


 * – ditto.
 * I found two sources that literally or approximately confirm this: Buy Five Girls at $10 Apiece; Arrest Sellers, New York Tribune, May 23, 1915; and 10 Held When Gunman Exposes 23 Murders, New York Tribune, November 28, 1917. DonCalo (talk) 12:59, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * If renominated for GA again, we would have to discard GangRule's claims and try to reconcile every claim made in this article that is attributed to GangRule using other sources (in the two books above and probably in other sources). I'm sadden to have to fail this, since Libertybison did an excellent work throughout the GA process in DonCalo's absence. I also want to thank AIRcorn for volunteering to take a second look. I'll leave this open till Friday, May 26 in case you guys have any additional comments. I'll be around if you guys need me. ComputerJA ( ☎  •  ✎  ) 01:51, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I have replaced several Gangrule references with other sources. Paradoxically, the more other sources I find, the clearer it becomes that Gangrule is well researched and is actually a quite reliable website. DonCalo (talk) 21:19, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Gangrule is being updated and sources are being added. The site was launched 20 years without sources, this is slowly being rectified. The Gallucci page has been updated. Yiofjld400 (talk) 20:10, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Don't feel too bad, you tried your best. AIR corn (talk) 06:22, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
 * , I'd like to thank you for all the extra effort you put in to see if this article could be promoted to GA without DonCalo. I guess it wasn't meant to be, this time. I do think the article is much better following the review and your suggestions for improvement. Libertybison (talk) 16:13, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Hello everyone, thanks for trying to promote the article to GA in my absence. I will look into the remaining issue to see if we could try again. - DonCalo (talk) 22:56, 5 September 2017 (UTC)


 * @DonCalo please don’t do this, it should be archived, this is not a pr. remove your comments after it was failed pls 48JCL 23:49, 18 June 2024 (UTC)