Talk:Giovanni Luppis/Archive 1

Austrian, croatian or Italian?
Useless question, good for stupid nationalists. Lupis was from Fiume/Rijeka, and he served with loyality in the Austrian Navy (so it was an austrian soldier). His origins were a mix of italian and croatian. He studied in Italian language (in Fiume Gymnasium and in Venice's Academy). Fiume/Rijeka was multiethnic city. The urban people was moslty italian, but the countryside was croatian. It belongs to Hungary, but it was a base or the Austrian Navy. The people spoke Italian, Croatian, German and Hungarian. Those languages were also used in the schools and in the press. Lupis was from FIUME, not from Italy of Croatia or Austria.--Giovanni Giove 10:20, 9 July 2006 (UTC) He was born in Nakovane, Pelješac not in Fiume.--WerWil 09:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The inserted references say he was born in Fiume. The history of the family, says that the family moved to Fiume in XVII century and that, there, they belonged two palaces.

Just have a look! Greetings. --Giovanni Giove 09:43, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

family tree and Italian information in general
Hello Joy, I'm sorry to see that you deleted again some correttions of mine. Lupis (wolfes) belong to an aristocratic family of the Italian nobility. A brench moved to the south of Dalmatia and slavized the name in Vukic. Then they moved to Fiume/Rijeka and they italianized again the name in Lupis or Luppis (read the links I inserted). You should know that in that the time the city was a "Corpus separatum" (separated body) of the Hungarian Kindgom, and that the urban population was mostly italian. So, it's not correct if you put the italian name in minor evidence. The turn the name in Lupis was a decision of the family itself, not of some italian nationalist of the 20th century! Furthermore it's not correct if you claim that Lupis is a "croatian engineer". It was from Fiume/Rijeka that belong to italian and croatian culture, in the same time and it's not correct to apply the PRESENT national conditions to the past. You want to impose your point of wiew, and this is against the rules of wikipedia. I will restore my corrections, pleas don't delete them againg or I shall ask for the intrvention of a moderator.

Others: - in the History of the family, wrotten by mr. Marco Lupis, I've seen that he was born in Fiume/Rijeka and he dead in Milan. Just have a look (you can understand this). - It's not possible this story about "italian garibaldines", for the simple reason that they never had a navy. Furthemore when Lupis started to work to the weapons there were not "garibaldini" at all. So....

Anyway I've contacted the family and I hope they will tell thir correct point of view. BTW: the photo came direct from the family: they decided to write Giovanni Ivan Lupis, so don't change it. --Giovanni Giove 09:08, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I can't find any mention of Giovanni in the link Ancestor Line from the duke Marco Lupis to Frederick II, only in the Historia_Stirpe_Luporum.pdf file,


 * This is true, but the site is for sure about Lupis'family, and it's in English: so it's in topic with the paper.
 * --Giovanni Giove 13:09, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

and I don't see how that one says that these people reverted to Italian nationality - IIRC, it says that there was one Luca Lupis who maried a Francesca Craglievich (which is Italian for Kraljević, that word sounds as if it has a clear Slavic etymology to me), and then it talks about this Giovanni born in 1813. I don't see why he would have to be Italianized back again. --Joy &#91;shallot] 10:49, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Francesca Graglievich sounds clearly as an Italian name with a of slavic origin. : Many italians in Fiume had such kinds of names, wrotten in an italianized way and with the a final "h".
 * I personaly know many examples (fron, Istria, Fiume and Dalmatia)... Amisich, Percovich, Aglich, Cosulich... and so on.
 * So it's makes no sense and it's incorrecto to translate that asserttion about a "local Croatian noblewoman from the family Kraljević (Craglievich)". There is the evidence that the womano was not croatian.
 * --Giovanni Giove 13:09, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

In any event, for the assessment of to whom does he "belong" or at least with whom did he align, I found it quite indicative that a Google search for "Giovanni Lupis" returns very few hits (37), and one hit for "Giovanni Biagio Lupis" (the one from istrianet.org). Since it's mainly the Croatians who are preserving the legacy of this person (by way of remembering him, not merely his invention), and the Italians don't seem to be particularly interested, it seems logical to think that he indebted the former more than he did the latter. Granted, this could mean nothing, too, but we'd need more evidence to make that conclusion. --Joy &#91;shallot] 10:49, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * As you said this means nothing. If the interest about Fiume/Rijeka in Croatia is high, in Italy is low. That's the reason.
 * --Giovanni Giove 13:09, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

As you can see from page history, I've plucked many of those factoids from a Croatian site, an essay from the student site of the naval faculty of the University of Rijeka. The bit about Garibaldines - I don't think this is irrelevant since in 1866 they did indeed wage war with the Habsburg Monarchy for whom Lupis worked (and took back Venetia which was fairly close to where he worked). --Joy &#91;shallot] 10:49, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The Garibaldini were an irregular force that ad a role in the Italian indipendece. It shouuld be correct to say "against Italians" (after 1861). Anyway there is not the historic evidence that Lupis was aimed by the purpose to do something "against italians". It seems that that student site wish to present Lupis as a "croatian patriot". Support this idea with documents, otherwise don't mention it.
 * --Giovanni Giove 13:09, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

About the place of birth on Pelješac, that's information from http://www.nakovana.hr/, where they say that there's an old house in that nearly-abandoned village that was his. Admittedly, they don't explicate that he was actually born there - it could have been his ancestors' house. There live people who are also with the surname Lupis (yet they don't have the Vuk* appended). --Joy &#91;shallot] 10:49, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Fiume/Rijeka is metioned in the history of the family, based on the personal documents of the archive of Mr. Marco Lupis.
 * I propose to write Fiume/Rijeka.
 * --Giovanni Giove 13:09, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

About the place of death not in Milan - that's from this biography at a random Croatian site. I took it for granted because it seemed to have other detailed information about him as well. It also says that he was born in Fiume/Rijeka in 1814. It's difficult to wage the accuracy of either of these, since for example the link you pasted has exact dates, which could mean that they copied it from an authoritative and precise source, and yet they don't have much other particular information about him. --Joy &#91;shallot] 10:49, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Same answer.
 * I propose Milan.
 * --Giovanni Giove 13:09, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Also the bit about French and the Sardinians - that I also picked up from the essay at pefri.hr. The Kingdom of Sardinia article says that it served as a "buffer state" against France, so that could be the basis of that comment. During the Revolutions of 1848, the Sardinians did wage war against the Austrians. Furthermore, in 1859 France sided with Sardinia in the Austro-Sardinian War. Lupis went into retirement somewhere around this time - it sucks that we don't have an exact date for this. --Joy &#91;shallot] 11:07, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * You are talking about PIEDMONT, and Sardina belonged to Piedmont.
 * During the revolutions of 1848, Piedmont moved war against Austria together other italians states. FRANCE was not involved in this war, that was fighted inland and not on the sea.
 * Furhtermore, Venice was the last city to surrender, after months of siege. The war was finished everywhere when Venice surrended, and you saied that Lupis blockheaded Venice.
 * --Giovanni Giove 13:09, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

During his retirement, the Italian unification was well at hand, and his and Whitehead's work was used by the Austrians to counter that. It seems a bit odd that a person who you think should be remembered as an Italian would use his talent for working against the Italian interests. Yet it's also odd that he moved to Italy and died there. --Joy &#91;shallot] 11:07, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Lupis did what an austrian officer was supposed to do, and this give no information about his nationality. Several sailormen from Venice fighted against Italy in the battle of Lissa, this does not mean they were not Italians.
 * --Giovanni Giove 13:09, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Personal names are not translatable into other languages
Therefore, the claim that Giovanni Biagio Luppis von Rammer is (in Croatia known as Ivan Blaž Lupis-Vukić) is utter nonsense.--GiorgioOrsini 15:59, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

In Croatia, he is known as Ivan Lupis. Many times were the names translated from Croatian to Italian and opposite. Croatian names were even forced to change on their Italian forms. Before WW2 there was even some italian law that forced that. I have some friends whose families had different names before WW2. Martin 17:18, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, personal names were routinely translated into other languages until 19th century. Thus, for example, a pair of well-known Russian diplomats in London who were also brothers became Peter and Paul Shuvalov, not Pyotr and Pavel Shuvalov. Writing personal names in the original language is a post-Great War phenomenon. H27kim 22:37, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Name of Rijeka
Quote from [] page; "Please, keep in mind that, per WP:NC, for the purposes of naming this article the names used for this artist by Latin, Italian, Croatian or Chinese-speaking individuals and authors (of the past, present and future) are irrelevant. Instead, we should consider only the names commonly used in English-language" Rijeka is known in English language as Rijeka, not Fiume:) And that is also its historical name (on Croatian language).

Also, writing with Pelješac which says now in Croatia, is somewhat offensive to Croats, because Pelješac was populated by Croats a long time ago, and that reference indicates temporarity.

Do you have some census which could prove that Rijeka had ethnic Italian majority? If not I suggest that you put " had an large number of ethnic italianians in it" phrase.

|Ceha 19:24, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Just look for the Austrian census, and look for an Austro Hungarian map. You will find 1) Fiume was an italian city 2) the official language was Italian (and not Croat), all the names of the east Adratic coast were reported in Italian. ''Sabbioncello was the official name of the peninsula till 1918.--Giovanni Giove 13:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Ethnicity of Luppis
Luppis could be Italian or maybe Croat. In Luppis' time the concept of nation was well developed. As a matter of fact Fiume had a large italian majority. The upper classes were nearly totally Italian. His name was clearly Italian (Giovanni Biaggio, and NOT Ivan Blaz, that is just a recent possible translation), in that time this was a sign of the Ethnicity. Luppis moved to Italy in his last years. When his family moved to Fiume in the XVII century, it had Italianized back the name in Luppis. I think is enough to say he did not considered himself as a Croat, whilst there are many facts that say us he was Italian.--Giovanni Giove 13:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Giovanni there is no reason to repeat the fact that he is Italian when it is stated so right there at the top. There are no controversies in this article as it is and I don't see a reason to change anything. Unless of course there are sound arguments for such a change. Tar-Elenion 15:12, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * RIght, it discussed in the intro. But intro is just a short abstract of the full article, so it is normal that some concept of the intro are repeated in the following article. That is normal for all the scientific articles. Greetings--Giovanni Giove 15:28, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The intro is a constituent part of the article. There is absolutly no need to repeat the same fact several times in the article as it is already esatblished and such practice reduces the quality of the article significantly. Besides, the article is very clear and I must say I can't see the reason why now all of a sudden you insist on this. Please be reasonable. Tar-Elenion 15:31, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

The ethnicity issue is still open. No links provided on the article page or the talk page include any definite evidence of his Italian or Croatian ethnicity. Therefore, I'm removing the claims of his Italian ethnicity and the Ethnicity "chapter" (a ridiculous paragraph, really; I wonder how nobody removed it yet). He was an Austrian officer, that's more than enough. --Zmaj 16:49, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

While all the users guess his nationality, following facts are forgotten :
 * He was born in Austria, and Rijeka / Fiume was under direct emperor authority
 * He was Austrian citizen
 * He was loyal to Austria
 * All official books at that time were in italian, and all kids had italian names written down even if they had croatian names
 * Nobody had choice, italian Giovanni Luppis or croatian Ivan Vukić, both guys will be entered with same name by the autorities.

Takling about his true nationality will be and is useless. I think that all participants in this conversation will agree to this.--Billy the lid 10:14, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Explanation of my edits
This is a detailed explanation why I will remove or change certain portions of the article:
 * The Lupis family (Site about the noble family of Giovanni Luppis) - I'll remove this because the site doesn't mention Giovanni Lupis. Saying that it's his family is pure conjecture, and therefore original research.
 * He was ethnically Italian - No proof (see my arguments below).
 *  into a local aristocratic family with Ragusan and Italian (Apulian) roots; Luppis was descended from a branch of the Italian noble family of Lupis, that moved to Dalmatia from Giovinazzo, Apulia. This branch moved first to Ragusa (Dubrovnik) and then to the Ragusan peninsula of Sabbioncello (today Pelješac in Croatia), where Slavicized the name in Vuk or Vukašinovic (another adaptation of lupus, "wolf"). When, in XVII century, one of his ancestors had moved to Fiume, that in that time had a mostly Italian urban population, he Italianized again his name in Luppis. - This has been taken from this site: (NOTE: Copy this link and then change groteria into grotteria. This is necessary because the correct site name is on Wikipedia's black list, which makes it a little suspicious, doesn't it? But let's suppose the source is correct.) Firstly, it can't be said his family has Ragusan and Italian roots if they came from Italy several centuries before he was born. It would be like saying for any person from North Italy that it has Germanic roots because Langobards moved to Italy in the Middle Ages. It's preposterous. "Roots" can extend to one generation, two at most; if you go further in the past, there's no stopping it. Then we all have African roots. Secondly, if they changed their last name from Lupis to Vukašinović and then back to Lupis, what does it mean? That they were Italians, then Croatians, then again Italians? What I mean is simply that names don't prove a thing. There's no evidence that he was either Italian or Croatian. The only thing we know with certainty is that he was an Austrian subject. I will include your text in a chapter called Origins, but as I explained, it cannot be taken as a basis for any ethnic claims.
 * Even if Luppis was ethnic Italian, in Croatia he is often presented as the "Croatian inventor" Ivan Blaž Lupis Vukić (a possible translation of Giovanni Biagio Luppis). Despite those claims, the Croatian name is not historically documented.; Giovanni Luppis was ethnical Italian, even if he had the Austria's citizenship. Similar disputes between Italy and Croatia are common, because the east Adriatic coast was an area of mixed culture. - All this is based on the pure conjecture which I refuted in the previous point. Therefore, it must be removed.
 * I will add Ivan Lupis because it is the most common name used today. Check Google if you don't believe me. It agrees with Wikipedia's pragmatic principle of names.
 * and was an Italian ethnic enclave (it had large Italian majority) - This is simply not true. Rijeka had a large Croatian majority throughout its history. It's true that the educated citizens were often Italians or Italianated Croats, but they were always just a small elite.

Well, these are my reasons. I will edit the text accordingly. I will NOT just revert your edits. I admit I was a bit rash when I removed the part about origins and I will return it in an appropriate form. I kindly ask you to refrain from reverting. That won't help anyone. So, please discuss the above matters with me before editing. --Zmaj 16:31, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Antifascism
Stop with the fascism! It's Rijeka, not Fiume!!! It is true that the city was gaining more and more italian pop. until it had italian majority sometime before 1918. But saing that the city's name was Fiume is stupid and historicly untrue. And that funny name for Pelješac... it's probably imagined. It was Pelješac, and it was all along pelješac. Even if it was calle Sabo-whatever italian ultranacionalists lost elections in Dalmatia way before 1918... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Emoutofthevee (talk • contribs) 21:45, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Various...
First of all, during Austro-Hungarian empire, Rijeka's name was Rijeka, not Fiume. That's the historical fact. First official use of name Fiume was 1n 1920 with creation of so called "Free State of Fiume".

You also said:

"It was from Fiume/Rijeka that belong to italian and croatian culture, in the same time and it's not correct to apply the PRESENT national conditions to the past." Another false argument is that Rijeka's urban residents where Italians while Croats lived in surrounding villages. Peasants do not attend theater that much and you have Croatian National Theater built in 1765. Furthermore, according to Austro-Hungarian census, year 1851. of 12.272 inhabitants, there are 11.581 Croats and 691 Italians while number of other nationalities is negligible.

So, Ivan Lupis Vukić was Croat. That's a fact. Yes he received education in Italy, as well as I have in England. However that does not make me English.

Furthermore you are saying that ITALIAN families Croatized surnames and you state examples like this: Percovich - Perković - and what's supposed to be original Italian name? Cosulich - Kosulić - same thing, what's original Italian name?

You also say: "Anyway there is not the historic evidence that Lupis was aimed by the purpose to do something "against italians"."

He was AustroHungarian soldier. Who was main (and only) enemy of our country's (Austro-Hungarian empire at the time) navy? Japan maybe?

Furthermore, he took part in war against Italy, so he definitely wasn't what you would call "Italian patriot".

I don't really understand that ultra nationalist urge to claim other peoples territories, history and persons. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MahnitiTapir (talk • contribs) 16:11, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Erasing the History?

 * Someone it's tryng to erase the family background and history of Giovanni Luppis. His family name has been Luppis or Lupis: please check references, on web too. Following some samples:


 * Curiosità - Lo sapevate che… - Sulla Croazia : "il siluro “torpedo”, nella sua concezione moderna, fu inventato nel 1860 da Ivan Lupis-Lukić, già ufficiale in pensione della Marina da guerra dell’Impero ..."
 * znanost : "Ivan Lupis-Vukić, umirovljeni mornarički inženjer, konstruirao je prototip za prvi torpedo. Nacrt je predstavljen caru Franji Josipu u Rijeci 1860. ..."
 * Ivan Vukić - Wikipedija : "Giovanni Biagio Luppis poznatiji kao Ivan Lupis (Rijeka, 28. siječnja 1814. - Torriggia, 11. siječnja 1875.), pomorski časnik Austro-ugarske Mornarice rodom ..."
 * Ivan Lupis Vukic, inventor of torpedo "photo of Ivan Lupis Vukic, inventor of torpedo. ... Ivan Lupis Vukic, inventor of torpedo. Edit Title. Embed Image:. Image Details ..."
 * (E) 140 years since the construction of torpedo by Ivan Lupis Vukic -: "140 years since the construction of torpedo by Ivan Lupis Vukic."

And so...--D&#39;Agrò (talk) 22:06, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Luppis not Lupis, Lupis is a wrong trascrizion. See Italian Page and external link. --Hellis (talk) 06:33, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you mean "transcription"? That it's a totally wrong assertion. On the contrary, it is LuPPis the wrong transcription of the "slavichized" surname "Vukic/Vukassinovich" from the original "de Lupis or Lupis". As stated in this wiki page too from many years, before someone (some SP of this "Hellis"?) erased it: "Luppis is descended from a branch of the Italian noble family of Lupis, that moved to Dalmatia from Giovinazzo, Apulia. This branch moved first to Ragusa (Dubrovnik) and then to the Ragusan peninsula of Sabbioncello (today Pelješac in Croatia), where Slavicized the name in Vuk or Vukašinovic (another adaptation of lupus, "wolf"). When, in XVII century, one of his ancestors had moved to Fiume, that in that time had a mostly Italian urban population, he Italianized again his name in Luppis" Evidences of this can be found in several books, but the one that is definitive is that on the "Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Italiana" (the "Italian Golden Book of the Nobles Families"), where the chapter dedicated to the noble family of Giovanni Luppis von Rammer it is clearly stated as "LUPIS - LUPPIS" (see here the whole scanned section and pay attention to the first page of the section here). On the last page of the section can see the Dalmatian branch here where can found the part dedicated to Giovanni Luppis. Please, don't try to ignore evidences and stop reverting. Thanks --D&#39;Agrò (talk) 12:59, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * BTW, if you persist in those immotivate revertions, you'll be reported for violation of the three-revert rule--D&#39;Agrò (talk) 13:28, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The family Lupis was deleted from Italian Wikipedia for Legal threats and Spam. His descendant was banned and Lupis.it is not a reliable site. www.genmarenostrum.com is chaired by Lupis.... --Hellis (talk) 14:53, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Really? On It-Wiki the whole descendants of a family can be banned :=)? What is this: some kind of internet-version of a Final Solution?

Anyway, your assertions doesn't means nothing. Here has been produced a printed references. I just produced them from the first link I found after a research on web, where there are available and scanned. Printed references, coming from an high reputed source like the "Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Italiana", cannot be ignored. I reported you for 3RR violation. If you still revert, you will also be reported for vandalisms and to have promoted a completly POV edit war--D&#39;Agrò (talk) 15:18, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Giovani Luppis family origins
I reported back the chapter regarding the family origins of Giovanni Luppis, including the links to the printed references from Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Italiana already stated, to provide available and new sources for them. I'm not inserted back back as a chapter like did before, because IMHO should be better to have them in a note. --D&#39;Agrò (talk) 16:05, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Name
Even Croat sources (the serious ones) state that the proper name was Giovanni Luppis. See this[ : it is no possible to find "Ivan Vukic". Some Croatian sources, for some reasons, like to translate the name into Croatian language, this is not a good reason to give it the same relevance of the original name (this should be a so called "POV")--217.201.175.16 (talk) 15:53, 3 October 2008 (UTC)